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Starkblack

Sansa up to something (with Cersei?)

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I think Sansa’s plotting with Cersei to betray Dany (or pretend to), secure safety and power for what's left of her people and let Arya scratch that last name off her list.
 
Sophie Turner mentioned taking a scroll from the GOT set on Good Morning America and that it’s a huge spoiler. Assuming the scroll is mail come by raven, and not something Sam finds in WF archives (because why would anything there be relevant to Sansa's character?) where would RavenMail come from save King’s Landing, the Iron Islands (where Yara's headed or already arrived) or from Melissandre? KL is the only place that make sense for Sansa's storyline. That leads me to think there is some correspondence between Cersei and Sansa.
 
We know that WF is on fire and likely destroyed after Ep3, so where will the survivors go? South, to KL. Especially if they're going with Dany to claim her throne. Cersei's not going to let her enemies come into her land supporting a Targaryen queen with Dragons. So what if Sansa made an arrangement to grant Northerners safety/Independence for the North (maybe even the Riverlands if WF is no more) in exchange for Dany?
 
Here are the things in S8E1 that lend to this theory for me:
 
  • Arya/Jon reunion — “she’s the smartest person I know. We’re fighting for this family. Remember that you’re family.” If we're looking at it through a lens of Sansa playing the game of thrones and Arya being her right-hand man, it starts to look like Arya giving Jon a subtle warning. I think she's basically saying “Sansa made a deal to save this family, which includes you so don’t be mad later when you find out.”
  • Tyrion/Sansa reunion — This scene really just establishes that Sansa's smarter than she was and knows more about Cersei at this point than Tyrion does.
  • Sansa's posturing/dislike of Dany -- If she's setting Dany up or pretending to for the sake of Cersei and Qyburn's spies, why even pretend to like her?
  • The news about the Glovers just reinforces that she's the Lady of WF and reads all the mail :D
  • I think Cersei being happy that the Wall came down is about her plans being put into motion
  • We also have an exchange about Cersei between Sansa and Dany in the trailer for Ep2.
 
Cersei now knows Sansa didn't kill Joffrey, so maybe she'd be open to an arrangement. I'm sure she plans to betray Sansa and the Northerners but given Sansa's interest in Arya's kill list last season, I feel like Sansa's planning to let her little sis get her Needle on as payback for everything. (Which would be an interesting setup for CleganeBowl: Mountain goes after Arya and the Hound steps in -- but I digress.)
 
To what end though?
 
Maybe the Starks had a family chat before Jon got back and they all know Jon isn't their brother, but cousin and heir to the throne. Sansa's "you know I do," line could mean she's about to be a Kingmaker. She sells out Dany (or at the very least pretends to to Cersei who I'm sure has eyes in WF and Sansa's dislike of Dany is a ruse), kills Cersei, put Jon (and maybe Dany) on the throne and becomes the Lady of Winterfell, or Queen, or the Hand? Or maybe she has the throne tossed into the Blackwater Bay.
 
I don't know but I absolutely think Sansa is making moves in the background like Cersei and LF taught her.
 
This theory doesn't account for Bran, AotD, NK, the Lannister men or Jon's agency as a person lol, but poke holes in it! It's kinda crackpot but is any of this plausible to you guys?
 

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I can't see Sansa ever teaming up in anyway with Cersei. There's just too much bad blood and hatred there on both sides. Both are cunning women, though Cersei is kind of losing it and doesn't have Sansa's logical attitude or compassion, but I can't forsee any event that would make Sansa ever team up with Cersei. LIke she even refused to go to the Dragonpit meeting because of Cersei. 

 

I can see her dislike of Dany and even making contigency plans in case things go awry but I can't see her teaming up with Cersei even if it was in her family's best interest. 

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Posted (edited)

I agree that Sansa is plotting something surprising and a lot of your observations ring true - the repeated, unsubtle reminders about how intelligent she is, the discussion between Jon and Arya about her family loyalty and her clearly advanced ability to read the various players in her chat with Tyrion.  But I don't see Sansa ever teaming up with Cersei, unless her ultimate object is to see Cersei deposed or dispatched. 

Edited by Citadel_acolyte

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7 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I can't see Sansa ever teaming up in anyway with Cersei. There's just too much bad blood and hatred there on both sides. Both are cunning women, though Cersei is kind of losing it and doesn't have Sansa's logical attitude or compassion, but I can't forsee any event that would make Sansa ever team up with Cersei. LIke she even refused to go to the Dragonpit meeting because of Cersei. 

 

I can see her dislike of Dany and even making contigency plans in case things go awry but I can't see her teaming up with Cersei even if it was in her family's best interest. 

Yeah, the hate is real for sure. I just can't see Sansa's character only being used for sly comebacks for the rest of the season.

The "smart" set up, especially after the "slow learner" last season is definitely positioning Sansa to make serious chess moves. She doesn't fight, so aside from doing what she can by preparing WF for the AotD, the only explicit enemy left on the map is Cersei. "Almost everyone who has underestimated you is dead." Cersei was the first one to do that. Her and Arya in a LF takedown-style tag team against Cersei is like the last thing she can do and there's Arya's kill list and LF as precedent.

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4 minutes ago, Citadel_acolyte said:

I agree that Sansa is plotting something surprising and a lot of your observations ring true - the repeated, unsubtle reminders about how intelligent she is, the discussion between Jon and Arya about her family loyalty and her clearly advanced ability to read the various players in her chat with Tyrion.  But I don't see Sansa ever teaming up with Cersei, unless her ultimate object is to see Cersei deposed or dispatched. 

I definitely think Arya is going to kill Cersei. To me, it's not as much a team up than a set up. It's a Cersei trap and survival for the North.

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The scroll is probably the one they read when announcing she is queen :D

"Sansa Stark, so and so of her name and what not"

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Sansa...plotting with Cersei.

Are you being sarcastic on purpose? Is this a joke threat?

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5 hours ago, Starkblack said:

I think she's basically saying “Sansa made a deal to save this family, which includes you so don’t be mad later when you find out.”

I cannot see that at all. Sansa does no deal with Cersei. They are enemies and Cersei is not a reliable deal maker anyway. That would be plain stupid of Sansa. Tyrion is too dumb to make a deal with his sister, but Sansa oh-so-smart? No, I don't believe that at all.

Further, we still don't know whether Tyrion made a real deal with Cersei. maybe is still smarter than Sansa. Maybe he knows what Cersei is up to and just plays along, even if he needs Sansa to think he lost his marbles.

5 hours ago, Starkblack said:

Tyrion/Sansa reunion — This scene really just establishes that Sansa's smarter than she was and knows more about Cersei at this point than Tyrion does.

Not really. We don't know whether Tyrion really believes in Cersei or whether he has a separate deal.

But yes, Sansa mellowed and is more cunning now. Smart is something different. But she learned the game.

5 hours ago, Starkblack said:

If she's setting Dany up or pretending to for the sake of Cersei and Qyburn's spies, why even pretend to like her?

No, Sansa does not openly act against Daenerys. To the contary, Daenerys is overly sensitive to even the slightest signs of power of others. Sansa is Lady of Winterfell and even that's to the dislike of Daenerys somehow.

5 hours ago, Starkblack said:

The news about the Glovers just reinforces that she's the Lady of WF and reads all the mail

Of course she is. Even Jon introduced her as Lady of Winterfell and the Maester is loyal to Sansa.

5 hours ago, Starkblack said:

I think Cersei being happy that the Wall came down is about her plans being put into motion

I don't think so, but this is a more unclear situation. I believe Cersei underestimates the risk of the WW and firmly believes that the combined armies of the North will win and than her Golden company will easily defeat the remaining winners up North.

5 hours ago, Starkblack said:

Maybe the Starks had a family chat before Jon got back and they all know Jon isn't their brother, but cousin and heir to the throne.

Pure speculation. But yes, it would be very interesting who knows about Jon's parentage. My guess ist only Bran and Sam. That would be fair. It would be unfair that everyone of the family knows for days and poor Jon is only told later. 

5 hours ago, Starkblack said:

but I absolutely think Sansa is making moves in the background like Cersei and LF taught her

Well, she learned the game after all. That much I concede.

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I can't see any reason for Sansa to ever trust Cercei. 

I think it's Tyrion that ends up turning on Dany.  

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On 4/17/2019 at 2:50 AM, Kajjo said:

Pure speculation. But yes, it would be very interesting who knows about Jon's parentage. My guess ist only Bran and Sam. That would be fair. It would be unfair that everyone of the family knows for days and poor Jon is only told later. 

Arya and Sansa might know. The scene with Arya and Jon, when Arya tells Jon Sansa is only protecting her family. Jon says he's her family, too, and Arya tells him not to forget that. Maybe this is why Sansa is plotting something because she knows Dany might not take lightly Jon being the heir. Bran could have spilled the beans to them already. They have to be one step ahead.

Yet nothing about Sansa and Jon meeting reveals that she would know. She's only doubting Jon's decision because he's in love with Dany. But Sansa and Arya would keep their cool, if there was a plot of some sort.

Qyburn is clearly sending Bronn after Tyrion with the bow, that's the way Tyrion killed their father. Sansa would not plot against Tyrion, I assume. Qyburn says the Queen has other plans for Dany than killing her. She wants her dragons?

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1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

Arya and Sansa might know.

They might know, but I don't think so. I am pretty sure Bran and Sam are the only one and kept the secret so far. Bran decided that it was the right time to tell Jon.

1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

The scene with Arya and Jon, when Arya tells Jon Sansa is only protecting her family. Jon says he's her family, too, and Arya tells him not to forget that.

Yes, a nice scene. My take is that Arya refers to Jon and Daenerys being a couple now and Sansa/Daenerys being quite, well, like ice and fire?! This is the much more likely explanation for Arya's admonition.

1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

Yet nothing about Sansa and Jon meeting reveals that she would know.

Exactly, the scene would make no sense at all. 

1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

Qyburn is clearly sending Bronn after Tyrion with the bow, that's the way Tyrion killed their father. Sansa would not plot against Tyrion, I assume.

How should Sansa know about Cersein and Bronn and the crossbow? This just happened parallel to the Winterfell scenes. She can't know it. 

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Yeah there's no way that Arya and Sansa knows, given what Bran said to Sam. 

They might suspect that Jon is into Daenerys, but there's no way that they suspect that Jon is a Targaryen (and why would they?).
 

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7 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

How should Sansa know about Cersein and Bronn and the crossbow? This just happened parallel to the Winterfell scenes. She can't know it. 

This thread is about Sansa plotting something with Cersei. Cersei's plan is to eliminate Tyrion, I can't see Sansa joining against Tyrion. I don't see her plotting with Cersei against Dany either. Any plotting by Sansa is not with Cersei, imo.

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Just now, Deminelle said:

This thread is about Sansa plotting something with Cersei.

Which is weird to begin with.

1 minute ago, Deminelle said:

Cersei's plan is to eliminate Tyrion

If the had a plot together, it certainly won't be about Jamie and Tyrion. This is just revenge by Cersei.

1 minute ago, Deminelle said:

Any plotting by Sansa is not with Cersei

Agreed. 

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