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StoneColdJorahMormont

somebody clear a few things up for me ?

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First one, despite Sansa not liking Dany at this point, is she at least acknowledging her as the true queen ? the line "Winterfell is yours your grace" even if said tongue in cheek which I doubt she would give Dany the satisfaction of using grace in reference to her even if it was meant as a joke, seems to show she acknowledges her as the true queen of Westeros ?

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If the WW cant travel in water, why have the westeros armies not planned their initial assault/defense from off the coast in ships ? set up camp in boats with arrows made of dragonglass and fire... and take out as many of the WW as possible before having to come on shore, at least this way it will lessen the numbers of the WW and reduce their own casualties. The only reason behind not doing this now is the Dragon the WK possesses however he is still going to be able to get to them as easily in their castles  or open ground... is there any mention why this isn't a possibility ?

From whats been seen the WK is seeking out them not the other way round.... so whether they are at winterfell or off the coast in ships he would come and they could take a large number down from the safety of the boats before needing to fight hand to hand.

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Something I never heard mentioned in the show or may have missed, why is John the true heir if Dany is the daughter of the mad king and john his grandson, do Westeros have a closest male successor setup ?

 

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1 hour ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

is she at least acknowledging her as the true queen

Well, I wouldn't say "true" but she is calling her "your grace" and said "Winterfell is yours", mirroring her father's words in S1. So yes, at the moment Sansa accepts Daenerys as queen.

1 hour ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

If the WW cant travel in water,

The wights can not. The WW might be able to.

1 hour ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

set up camp in boats

For thousands of Unsullied, Dothraki, Wildlings and so on? Not feasible. No less ships. To many people.

And, the Nightking might not go to the coast. He would just take Winterfell and all Northern towns and that's it. Fleeing is no kind of defense.

1 hour ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

why is John the true heir

Jon Snow is the son of the last prince Rhaegar who was the first born son of the Mad King. So Rhaegar is first in line of succession, then all his sons -- and only then the other siblings of Rhaegar, i.e. Daenerys. Daenerys is the aunt of Jon Snow.

The same applies to the modern Britisch monarchy. Prince William and his children are first in line, only if William and all his children were dead, Prince Harry were next in line. 

 

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I've always wondered something about the water travel problem, couldn't the WW freeze the water ahead of them enough that their army marches slowly behind them?

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Its true that speaking out your grace is to show Dany she is queen, but she meant it it some sarcastic. That said its also a reference to king Robert in season 1 were Ned Stark sai the same line :" Winterfell is yours your grace". Also the arriving of Sandor and the Line of Jon "Where is Arya" is the same as Cats. So i think that was the most important reason.

The problem i see with boats is that the food will be gone at one moment and the NK is not stupid to let his wights die on the coast he just wait.

Yes Throughout history only Male Targaryans can sit the throne, thats decided in the great council. But its kinda stupid for the show, because Olenna Tyrell, Allyria Sand and Yaya Greyjoy all have been rulers of their regions, sow why suddenly is the kingship different. Even Cersei sits on the throne!

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They should absolutely have decamped from Winterfell, gone below the neck, and back to Dragonstone, a volcanic island, which should have been their HQ.  Not Winterfell, surrounded by land up in the North.

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4 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

First one, despite Sansa not liking Dany at this point, is she at least acknowledging her as the true queen ? the line "Winterfell is yours your grace" even if said tongue in cheek which I doubt she would give Dany the satisfaction of using grace in reference to her even if it was meant as a joke, seems to show she acknowledges her as the true queen of Westeros ?

 

She said the words but she didn't bend the knee (nor did anyone else) so my take is that Sansa doesn't really acknowledge her as queen.

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

They should absolutely have decamped from Winterfell, gone below the neck, and back to Dragonstone, a volcanic island, which should have been their HQ.  Not Winterfell, surrounded by land up in the North.

The problem is that Winterfell is our heroes home. The story is as much about it as anything else so they have to make a stand there.  Reality, yes, head south to the twins and try to funnel as many onto the bridge in a choke point as possible. 

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6 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

First one, despite Sansa not liking Dany at this point, is she at least acknowledging her as the true queen ? the line "Winterfell is yours your grace" even if said tongue in cheek which I doubt she would give Dany the satisfaction of using grace in reference to her even if it was meant as a joke, seems to show she acknowledges her as the true queen of Westeros ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the WW cant travel in water, why have the westeros armies not planned their initial assault/defense from off the coast in ships ? set up camp in boats with arrows made of dragonglass and fire... and take out as many of the WW as possible before having to come on shore, at least this way it will lessen the numbers of the WW and reduce their own casualties. The only reason behind not doing this now is the Dragon the WK possesses however he is still going to be able to get to them as easily in their castles  or open ground... is there any mention why this isn't a possibility ?

From whats been seen the WK is seeking out them not the other way round.... so whether they are at winterfell or off the coast in ships he would come and they could take a large number down from the safety of the boats before needing to fight hand to hand.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something I never heard mentioned in the show or may have missed, why is John the true heir if Dany is the daughter of the mad king and john his grandson, do Westeros have a closest male successor setup ?

 

This annoys me in any medieval movie setting.  Archers fire 2 volleys, then the infantry rides out to attack.  Wtf? Either the archers now go for a smoke break or fire into the crowd risking their own guys lives too.

Why not fire every goddamn arrow you have FIRST, take out as many of them baddies from range as possible.  When your out of arrows THEN charge..

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4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

They should absolutely have decamped from Winterfell, gone below the neck, and back to Dragonstone, a volcanic island, which should have been their HQ.  Not Winterfell, surrounded by land up in the North.

If you’re ok with the WW killing and destroying everything between the wall and dragonstone you could do that. 

 

And who's to say the WW wouldn’t take winterfell and all the other forts if you did that? Hard enough to fight them without them having all the best fortifications in the north. 

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Posted (edited)

 

5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

They should absolutely have decamped from Winterfell, gone below the neck, and back to Dragonstone, a volcanic island, which should have been their HQ.  Not Winterfell, surrounded by land up in the North.

This would have been the more efficient way of what I was suggesting... take the armies and all the civilians down south and across the twins. this leaves only one way for the NK + WW to get to them... and cuts of any potential of being flanked. 

As it also right next to the sea according to the map ( use the three sisters for casualties to be taken across to) als Yara or even Euron if he switches sides at the last minute to give some support from the sea.. whether attacking or for fleeing. Seomthing being at winterfell gives none of.

Why would anyone care about them seizing the castles if they are empty and every man/woman and child have crossed the Towers.… they will be their to retake once the war is over.

Also with everyone travelling further south, there is an opportunity to collect food on the way, it will be warmer so any cuts and infections wont get rot.... they also would be closer to kings landing to flee as the very last case scenario...

Winterfell they are a sitting duck... basically.

Edited by StoneColdJorahMormont

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Something I never heard mentioned in the show or may have missed, why is John the true heir if Dany is the daughter of the mad king and john his grandson, do Westeros have a closest male successor setup ?

 

Some others have answered but here's some more info

Rhaegar was the firstborn child of Mad Aerys, Viserys was the second child and then Dany was born about close to 9 months after Robert's Rebellion had won the war. She's actually younger than Jon (about 9 months, since he was born shortly after Robert won).

As firstborn male child, Rhaegar was the crownprince. Since he died, and all the witnesses of Jon's birth were dead (aside from Ned and Meera's dad), and his known children by his first wife Elia Martel were killed by Gregor Clegane during the sack of King's Landing (when Jaime killed the Mad King), everybody believed that his younger brother Viserys was next in line. And once he died, Dany was the sole heir left.

However, Rhaegar has legal issue in Jon, so Jon is first in line after Rhaegar, before Viserys and before Dany. It doesn't matter that Rhaegar died before the Mad King. The first in line was still the issue of the crown prince. Not only is Dany not the heir, Viserys never was the heir either.

George made it easier with Dany being the youngest of the three siblings, but let's say that she was the firstborn, and then Rhaegar and then Viserys, Dany would still come last.

Firstborn sons and his children come before anyone else, girls come last.

Let's say that Jon wasn't born as Jon but as Jane, then Viserys would have been heir instead. This reasoning is not fully applicable with the great houses, just the throne. A great council and the civil war called the Dance of Dragons between firstborn daughter of a first wife and later born sons of a second wife where the king favoured his daughter but several of the small council preferred the son led to a preference of male heirs for the throne.

So, for example for a great house of a lord, the daughter of the lord comes before her uncle to be the ruler. But for the Iron Throne, an uncle comes before the daughter of the king. This is discussed between Stannis and Renly in the books. Stannis claims the throne, because Robert's children weren't really his children. Renly also claimed the throne, but was Stannnis's younger brother, and should come after Stannis. In the parlay in the books, Stannis tells Renly he will make him his heir, as Stannis only had one child, a daughter (with greyscale), and Renly would come before her. Renly rejected the offer, because Stannis might decide to remarry and still beget a son in who-knows-how-long. The show didn't include this argument, as they wanted to show Renly in a more favourable light. 

ETA: some readers dispute Jon's claim as being higher up in succession line than Dany, because the king himself as lawmaker often appoints his heir himself. When Rhaegar died, the Mad King allegedly made Viserys his heir, even though Rhaegar's son with Elia was still alive (Mad King didn't know about Lyanna and baby Jon coming). So, allegedly, the Mad King made his second son heir and therefore scrapped Rhaegar's issue (with Elia) from the line of succession. If we go by the kingsguard who fought Ned though, they regarded baby Jon as their king (since the Mad King was dead), not Viserys.

Edited by sweetsunray

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7 hours ago, D-Shiznit said:

I've always wondered something about the water travel problem, couldn't the WW freeze the water ahead of them enough that their army marches slowly behind them?

 

I've always wondered why the WW couldn't just take some boats (or build some, they can apparently forge industrial-strength chains) and row them out to take various ships, and therefore cross water.  The WW apparently had no trouble affixing those chains to a dead dragon who was submerged in a lake, so why is water a problem at all?

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2 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I've always wondered why the WW couldn't just take some boats (or build some, they can apparently forge industrial-strength chains) and row them out to take various ships, and therefore cross water.  The WW apparently had no trouble affixing those chains to a dead dragon who was submerged in a lake, so why is water a problem at all?

Plot. The story doesn't work if they can do that. If they could do that then the wall is useless. No wall gets built, no Nights Watch for Jon to train and gain leadership skills at.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I've always wondered why the WW couldn't just take some boats (or build some, they can apparently forge industrial-strength chains) and row them out to take various ships, and therefore cross water.  The WW apparently had no trouble affixing those chains to a dead dragon who was submerged in a lake, so why is water a problem at all?

ive never seen it mentioned so this would be the only way I could convince myself it wasn't possible as you are right there is no reason why they couldn't do so or have the smarts to come up with the idea.. 

Maybe their magic is rooted on the westeros lands... if they leave westeros they lose they fall to pieces similar to when they tried to enter the cave belonging to the children, but this idea only works when leaving westeros not crossing water in westeros… unless they need to keep their feet planted to the ground.. but I've seen them jumping/falling from roofs... so the feet planted on westeros lands thing falls apart there.

Edited by StoneColdJorahMormont

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Posted (edited)

I don't really believe this theory myself, just throwing it out there: while Wights can be in/under water, perhaps the White Walkers can't? 

Why they wouldn't be able to I have no idea, but it's been 7+ seasons and AFAIK we have yet to see a WW in actual water.
Maybe they are bound to be on land by whatever magic created them.

Edited by MinscS2

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10 hours ago, nara said:

She said the words but she didn't bend the knee (nor did anyone else) so my take is that Sansa doesn't really acknowledge her as queen.

Didn't Jon bend the knee on behalf of all of them?

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19 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Didn't Jon bend the knee on behalf of all of them?

That's not how it works, you see your liege lord/lady you bend the knee and greet let alone your queen. 

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Just now, L’Age d’or said:

That's not how it works, you see your liege lord/lady you bend the knee and greet let alone your queen. 

Ok, thanks.

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3 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Ok, thanks.

Come to think of it, she didn't even curtsy; Dany is already preparing a spit right as we speak :spank:

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1 minute ago, L’Age d’or said:

Come to think of it, she didn't even curtsy; Dany is already preparing a spit right as we speak :spank:

So, now that we know Jon should be the right leader, where does that place Dany in regards with Sansa? Without yet knowing it herself, Sansa is correct not bending the knee to Dany.

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