somebody clear a few things up for me ?

[House Cambodia]

10 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Sansa wants one.  Sansa wants to be at least the Queen in the North, and Jon setting aside the title and kneeling to Dany has screwed up her plans good and proper.

 

Not sure she's too bothered about that. I think the rest of the North are pressurising her. I see her as primarily concerned with protecting her people. Her suspicion of Dany is due to Sansa's sense that Dany has an air of megalomania about her.

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I’ve never really understood the obsession with where those chains came from. Found them or made them doesn’t make much difference.  Looking at their armor its quite plain that the WWs are capable of pretty sophisticated manufacturing and metal working (or—less likely—trade with someone with those capabilities). And that raises all sorts of interesting questions. Is there a city someplace with WW blacksmiths? And what do they do when they’re not leading an army of the dead? 

The WWs (or Others in the books) appear to have been dormant for 8000 years after the Long Night. I'd guess their armour comes from their wars against the Men at that time (technology has not significantly evolved in GRRM's world). The key question is WHAT awoke them? Mance had been organising the Wildings in reaction to the threat for 20 years, so whatever caused them to awake happened around the time of Jon and Dany's birth, or before.

[Kajjo]

12 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

And that raises all sorts of interesting questions. Is there a city someplace with WW blacksmiths? And what do they do when they’re not leading an army of the dead? 

Yes, we do not know much about White Walkers. It's a pity.

Obviously they raise and educate the converted babies to adults. The White Walkers cry and probably speak, the paint symbols, the raise children... even if they need them to be donated from humans and convert them.

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I don't really believe this theory myself, just throwing it out there: while Wights can be in/under water, perhaps the White Walkers can't? 

Why they wouldn't be able to I have no idea, but it's been 7+ seasons and AFAIK we have yet to see a WW in actual water.
Maybe they are bound to be on land by whatever magic created them.

They'd melt? They're made of ice after all.

[Prince of the North]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

They'd melt? They're made of ice after all.

Or, conversely, they (white walkers) would instantly freeze any water around them and, in effect, trap themselves.  But then, why wouldn't they simply be able to freeze and walk across any water they encounter?  Must be some sort of "magical" answer that we simply don't know yet  

[Ser Gareth]

6 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Not sure she's too bothered about that. I think the rest of the North are pressurising her. I see her as primarily concerned with protecting her people. Her suspicion of Dany is due to Sansa's sense that Dany has an air of megalomania about her.

She's always been self entitled and lacked humility.  Those traits clearly exist within her as she still exhibits them on a regular basis.  Her education from Littlefinger and Cersei will be invaluable and she's definitely going to be playing the game of thrones IMO.

Sansa was instantly suspicious and cold to Dany, before she knew anything about her.  Dany complimented her and Sansa looked at her like she was something she'd just scrapped off her boot.

I've always flip flopped between the more beautiful Queen that will bring Cersei low.  Dany is the obvious choice.  So much so that I don't think it will be her.

Then there was the talk of Arya being beautiful (in the books at least it is clear she is an "ugly duckling" who will blossom into someone as beautiful as her aunt) and the foreshadowing from her conversation with Eddard, that could also foreshadow.....

Sansa.  With the way the show has turned, combined with Bran's vision of the UnGregor fighting the Hound, and probably Jaime, with Sansa being involved, I am now swayed towards Sansa will be the more beautiful one that brings Cersei low.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Or, conversely, they (white walkers) would instantly freeze any water around them and, in effect, trap themselves.  But then, why wouldn't they simply be able to freeze and walk across any water they encounter?  Must be some sort of "magical" answer that we simply don't know yet  

Who the hell knows in the show First you can kill wights only with fire and WW only with dragonglass; and you can't kill wights with dragonglass, that is until you can since s7. And those wights have gotten more intelligent per season as well... first shambling nitwits, then speedy crawlies, and now they can pull swords out of their scabbards and duel like Inigo Montoya against Wesley, while WWs have ice-smiths forging armor and chains.  By the end of the season, not only do they have an ice-dragon but Euron's fleet 'cause they prefer a pirate's life after all.

[Deminelle]

5 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I've always flip flopped between the more beautiful Queen that will bring Cersei low.  Dany is the obvious choice.  So much so that I don't think it will be her.

Didn't that already happen with Margaery?

[Ice Queen]

10 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Or, conversely, they (white walkers) would instantly freeze any water around them and, in effect, trap themselves.  But then, why wouldn't they simply be able to freeze and walk across any water they encounter?  Must be some sort of "magical" answer that we simply don't know yet  

In the show, who the hell knows. In the books Cotter Pyke's letters from Hardhome indicate that the water isn't off limits to the wights. 

[Ice Queen]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Who the hell knows in the show First you can kill wights only with fire and WW only with dragonglass; and you can't kill wights with dragonglass, that is until you can since s7. And those wights have gotten more intelligent per season as well... first shambling nitwits, then speedy crawlies, and now they can pull swords out of their scabbards and duel like Inigo Montoya against Wesley, while WWs have ice-smiths forging armor and chains.  By the end of the season, not only do they have an ice-dragon but Euron's fleet 'cause they prefer a pirate's life after all.

Just to nitpick a little. The NK does not have an ice dragon. He has a wighted fire dragon. Not quite the same thing. 

I hope we do see a real ice dragon.  

[Prince of the North]

Just now, Ice Queen said:

In the show, who the hell knows. In the books Cotter Pyke's letters from Hardhome indicate that the water isn't off limits to the wights. 

Right, "dead things in the water".  But what I'm thinking about here is Others (White Walkers in the show).  They seem to emanate a tremendous amount of cold...so wouldn't any water near them just instantly freeze?

[Ser Gareth]

7 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Didn't that already happen with Margaery?

I don't think so.  Margaery was the one Cersei suspected, so that alone makes me think it wasn't her.  Margaery didn't cast down all she holds dear either, as Jaime and her Queenship are still in play.

[Ice Queen]

4 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Right, "dead things in the water".  But what I'm thinking about here is Others (White Walkers in the show).  They seem to emanate a tremendous amount of cold...so wouldn't any water near them just instantly freeze?

You'd think, right? But then D&D have to screw that up with the ambush where Dany rescues them. (I forget the episode, but it's the one where the dragon is killed.) The WW waited for hours for the water to freeze before crossing.

(Or...the NK knew the dragons were coming.)

[Prince of the North]

1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

You'd think, right? But then D&D have to screw that up with the ambush where Dany rescues them. (I forget the episode, but it's the one where the dragon is killed.) The WW waited for hours for the water to freeze before crossing.

(Or...the NK knew the dragons were coming.)

Exactly.  Or, you know, the NK could have just hit Jon with one of those uber magic ice javelin thingies (he had a few) that he used on Viserion and had done with

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Exactly.  Or, you know, the NK could have just hit Jon with one of those uber magic ice javelin thingies (he had a few) that he used on Viserion and had done with

Everyone assumes the NK is worried about Jon.  It's Bran he is after.

A lake surface is a lot of water to freeze.  I don't think Others freeze water.  If they did, then the Wall is no barrier to them at all.

[Ice Queen]

1 minute ago, Prince of the North said:

Exactly.  Or, you know, the NK could have just hit Jon with one of those uber magic ice javelin thingies (he had a few) that he used on Viserion and had done with

I want one of those. 

It's almost as if the NK needs Jon alive, but that doesn't really explain anything. 

The inconsistency drives me nuts. D&D are in it more for the payoff than actual storytelling. In any given fantasy world, magic has a logical consistency, and it has its clearly defined limits. At least, that's what good storytellers do. This "make it up as you go along" shit is maddening. 

[Ice Queen]

1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

Everyone assumes the NK is worried about Jon.  It's Bran he is after.

A lake surface is a lot of water to freeze.  I don't think Others freeze water.  If they did, then the Wall is no barrier to them at all.

The Wall was built with magic, though, that they couldn't get around until they acquired a magical creature capable of destroying it.

[Ser Gareth]

Just now, Ice Queen said:

The Wall was built with magic, though, that they couldn't get around until they acquired a magical creature capable of destroying it.

The Wall was built with magic so they couldn't get through it.

Unless the Wall's magic circles around the entire globe then theoretically if the Others can freeze large volumes of water by touching it, then they could have just built a frozen path in the water to a point past the Wall.

My conclusion is, the Others can't freeze large volumes of water like a lake.

[sweetsunray]

17 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Just to nitpick a little. The NK does not have an ice dragon. He has a wighted fire dragon. Not quite the same thing. 

I hope we do see a real ice dragon.  

Apparelty to D&D he's an ice dragon, not a wight. I thought he was a wight, especially with those wings ripping, but D&D say ice dragon, and the thing thing can spew "ice fire" or whatever that blue stuff was. Would a wighted dragon truly be able to do that? I'm sooooooooooooooo confused

[Prince of the North]

2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Everyone assumes the NK is worried about Jon.  It's Bran he is after.

A lake surface is a lot of water to freeze.  I don't think Others freeze water.  If they did, then the Wall is no barrier to them at all.

Sure, the NK would want Bran but it was also shown in the Hardhome scene that he seemed to recognize something about Jon (the staredown).  My point is that the NK could have so easily taken Jon out (or anyone else for that matter).  Also, we know from the prologue of ASoIaF that the Others bring with them incredible cold.  We also saw in the show at Hardhome a white walker step right through a rather large fire and the flames simply...decreased.  Was that due to emanating incredible cold?  

I sincerely hope we eventually get answers to these sorts of questions.