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StoneColdJorahMormont

somebody clear a few things up for me ?

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

That's an odd claim. Bastards can't inherit. Also, wasn't part of Robert's original claim that he had some Dragon Blood in 'im? 

Right now, he would, because the other Baratheons are all dead, back when this all began, he wouldn't have had a claim. And a lot of people believe since Robert "stole" the throne from the Targaryens, that Robert was never a true King either, he didn't want to be King, he just wanted Revenge on Rhaegar for supposedly rapeing Lyanna Stark, who he was supposed to marry. His whole claim to thrones was based on revenge of the Targaryens. 

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2 minutes ago, cirah1712 said:

Bran would be true heir of Winter fell and the North, if he wanted the title. He is Ned Sticks eldest, living, true born son. As long as he is alive, regardless of whether he products an heir, Sansa's claim to Winterfell could always be tested. It would only ever truly be hers if Bran died, as there would be no more living male heirs. 

Bran is definitely well outside the human 'game of thrones'. I don't see any of the surviving protagonists as even wanting a title other than Cercei and Dany.

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1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

Bran is definitely well outside the human 'game of thrones'. I don't see any of the surviving protagonists as even wanting a title other than Cercei and Dany.

Oh yeah, 100%. Bran doesn't want the title, Sansa can have it, and I doubt anyone will argue with her about it. But as a male, Bran would have a stronger claim if he tried to claim it. 

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2 minutes ago, cirah1712 said:

Cersai's children were not Baratheons though, they were all Lannisters, because they are Jaime and Cersai's children. They were also bastards. That's the entire premise of the show, that after Robert's death, Joffrey shouldnt have been King, that's why there was a war? Cersai took the throne because it was left open for the taking, and Jaime wasn't going to stop her. Cersai isn't meant to be on the throne, but the rightful person hasn't sat on that throne since Robert Baratheon, possibly even before that.

Well, ya know thousands of years ago someone bopped somebody else on the head and eventually we got kings. Unless the gods themselves actually annoint people, sometimes wondering who the real king is like wondering "does anybody really know what time it is."

Cersei has no claim. She's ruling by sheer terror and the fact that some lords prefer her to the foreign queen with the Mongol hordes, eunuch Spartans, and dragons.

The toe-headed duo on the throne before her had no claim, being bastards unrelated to the at that time royal blood. The crown belonged to Stannis after Bob, and Renly after Stan. And since the show has to be as simple as feasible, I guess those were the only three males in the extended family. None of them worth a damn at producing legitimate or viable heirs. 

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1 minute ago, darmody said:

None of them worth a damn at producing legitimate or viable heirs. 

Except that Stannis had a quite wonderful viable heir. Still chokes me up.

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4 minutes ago, cirah1712 said:

Right now, he would, because the other Baratheons are all dead, back when this all began, he wouldn't have had a claim. And a lot of people believe since Robert "stole" the throne from the Targaryens, that Robert was never a true King either, he didn't want to be King, he just wanted Revenge on Rhaegar for supposedly rapeing Lyanna Stark, who he was supposed to marry. His whole claim to thrones was based on revenge of the Targaryens. 

Even if all Baratheons are dead, they weren't a genetic cul-de-sac, were they? They must be related to some other family. 

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

Well, ya know thousands of years ago someone bopped somebody else on the head and eventually we got kings. Unless the gods themselves actually annoint people, sometimes wondering who the real king is like wondering "does anybody really know what time it is."

Cersei has no claim. She's ruling by sheer terror and the fact that some lords prefer her to the foreign queen with the Mongol hordes, eunuch Spartans, and dragons.

The toe-headed duo on the throne before her had no claim, being bastards unrelated to the at that time royal blood. The crown belonged to Stannis after Bob, and Renly after Stan. And since the show has to be as simple as feasible, I guess those were the only three males in the extended family. None of them worth a damn at producing legitimate or viable heirs. 

I know, I agree. I don't even think Robert's claim to the thrones is true, his rebellion against the Targaryens was built on a lie, and fuelled by revenge.

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Just now, House Cambodia said:

Except that Stannis had a quite wonderful viable heir. Still chokes me up.

Literally viable, but would the people accept a queen with leprosy who had been hidden away her whole life? However sweet she is when you get to know her. 

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1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

Except that Stannis had a quite wonderful viable heir. Still chokes me up.

Yeah true, less said about that the better. I'm not saying Stannis would have been a good King, but he was next in line is all.

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3 minutes ago, cirah1712 said:

I know, I agree. I don't even think Robert's claim to the thrones is true, his rebellion against the Targaryens was built on a lie, and fuelled by revenge.

Yeah, it appears that Rhaegar and Lyanna would have made a perfect royal couple, with little Aegon the perfect heir, but that would have ruined a perfectly bad story ;-)

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

Kevan, I forget? Did he burn in the Sept?

Yes.

1 hour ago, cirah1712 said:

Cersai's children were not Baratheons though

They carried the name Baratheon. The illegitimacy was never established. Jeoffrey and Tommen taking the throne was on the foundation of them being Baratheons. That's why they had a sigil with deer and lion. However, we as spectators know they are Lannisters. However, formally they were Baratheons.

1 hour ago, cirah1712 said:

Joffrey shouldnt have been King, that's why there was a war

The war erupted because three sides claimed the throne: Renly, Stannis and Jeoffrey. Robb Stark opens the war only because he wants to free his captured father, later revenge his father's death. 

1 hour ago, cirah1712 said:

Cersai took the throne because it was left open for the taking, and Jaime wasn't going to stop her. Cersai isn't meant to be on the throne, but the rightful person hasn't sat on that throne since Robert Baratheon, possibly even before that.

The term "rigthful" makes no sense if thrones are conquered. Of course the conquerer calls himself rightful and the loser the opposite.

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1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

And they wouldn't introduce us at this point something like Robert was actually married to this wench making Gendry the heir all Cersei's children illegitimate?

EDIT: Oh yes, the theory of him being Robert's and Cersei's son. Well, we'll see.

I don't think so. Robert was married to Cersei and Gendry is a bastard. This will not change. Why should it? The throne can be conquered.

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

Insofar as 'history is written by the winners' only.

Indeed.

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1 hour ago, cirah1712 said:

I know, I agree. I don't even think Robert's claim to the thrones is true, his rebellion against the Targaryens was built on a lie, and fuelled by revenge.

Remember the Rebellion was named after him but it was not his Rebellion.  It was Jon Arryn that rebelled.  The rebellion was not built on a lie.  Why did Jon, Robert, and Ned rebel?  It was not because Rhaegar and Lyanna did what they did.  It was because Aerys in his madness decided after executing Rickard and Brandon and just about all the people with them that was not enough he needed the heads of Ned and Robert.  The rebellion for the Ned and Robert was about survival first and foremost.  Do they rebel even after the executions if Aerys doesnt call for their heads?  Robert only put a claim on the Iron throne after the Trident, his hatred for the Targaryens though is different.  I don't think he hated them all Rhaegar of course he stole his girl, Aerys of course he wanted his head.  Viserys and Dany were really of no concern to him until two things happened, he claimed the throne and he found out Lyanna was dead.  When that happened to him the only good Targaryen was a dead one.

As for Roberts claim to the throne lets just say that the rebellion never happens and some other tragedy befalls the targaryens and they end up all dead.  He would probably had the best claim to the throne after them.  He is a highborn great lord and he has a direct link to the targaryen yes it it through the female line but if there is no claimant that is legitimately linked to the male line of the targaryen family then a great council probably would have placed him on the throne.  

In the matter of succession, in an ideal situation after Tommen's suicide a great council would have been called to determine who the next ruler of the 7 kingdoms should have been.  The first one saw just about all the lords of Westeros big and small come and have a hand in determining this, the second one was much smaller, not sure the make up of the third.  If a great council is called Cersei probably is not sitting on the throne.  Remember Olenna had not yet rebelled so and the lords of the reach still had great respect for her and most likely would not have supported her claim and at the time the Reach was probably the most powerful of the seven kingdoms.  

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, xander_blackfyre said:

Remember the Rebellion was named after him but it was not his Rebellion.  It was Jon Arryn that rebelled.  The rebellion was not built on a lie.  Why did Jon, Robert, and Ned rebel?  It was not because Rhaegar and Lyanna did what they did.  It was because Aerys in his madness decided after executing Rickard and Brandon and just about all the people with them that was not enough he needed the heads of Ned and Robert.  The rebellion for the Ned and Robert was about survival first and foremost.  Do they rebel even after the executions if Aerys doesnt call for their heads?  Robert only put a claim on the Iron throne after the Trident, his hatred for the Targaryens though is different.  I don't think he hated them all Rhaegar of course he stole his girl, Aerys of course he wanted his head.  Viserys and Dany were really of no concern to him until two things happened, he claimed the throne and he found out Lyanna was dead.  When that happened to him the only good Targaryen was a dead one.

As for Roberts claim to the throne lets just say that the rebellion never happens and some other tragedy befalls the targaryens and they end up all dead.  He would probably had the best claim to the throne after them.  He is a highborn great lord and he has a direct link to the targaryen yes it it through the female line but if there is no claimant that is legitimately linked to the male line of the targaryen family then a great council probably would have placed him on the throne.  

In the matter of succession, in an ideal situation after Tommen's suicide a great council would have been called to determine who the next ruler of the 7 kingdoms should have been.  The first one saw just about all the lords of Westeros big and small come and have a hand in determining this, the second one was much smaller, not sure the make up of the third.  If a great council is called Cersei probably is not sitting on the throne.  Remember Olenna had not yet rebelled so and the lords of the reach still had great respect for her and most likely would not have supported her claim and at the time the Reach was probably the most powerful of the seven kingdoms.  

 

The reason why Rickard and Brandon went to King's Landing was because Lyanna was "taken" by Rhaegar. It all  started with Lyanna's disappearance.

 

Edited by Camara

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11 minutes ago, xander_blackfyre said:

In the matter of succession, in an ideal situation after Tommen's suicide a great council would have been called to determine who the next ruler of the 7 kingdoms should have been.  The first one saw just about all the lords of Westeros big and small come and have a hand in determining this, the second one was much smaller, not sure the make up of the third.  If a great council is called Cersei probably is not sitting on the throne. 

She'd just wiped out all the prospective members in the wildfire massacre. Uncle Kevan included, who might have been the best candidate. Plus, this was all post the books when D&D aren't hanging about with plot developments.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Deminelle said:

So, now that we know Jon should be the right leader, where does that place Dany in regards with Sansa? Without yet knowing it herself, Sansa is correct not bending the knee to Dany.

No Sansa isn't correct. Daenerys is the Queen and she will remain Queen if and until she decides to abdicate in favor of Jon. Or alternatively the North decides to rebel against her which I wouldn't advise doing.

All Jon has is a claim right now and we have no idea yet if he will try to press it.

Edited by El Guapo

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2 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

No Sansa isn't correct. Daenerys is the Queen and she will remain Queen if and until she decides to abdicate in favor of Jon. Or alternatively the North decides to rebel against her which I wouldn't advise doing.

All Jon has is a claim right now and we have no idea yet if he will try to press it.

At least one of Jon and Dany is gonna die anyway, so it's a moot point. I reckon it'll be their unborn babe that succeeds to the IR, or what's left of it.

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2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Bran is definitely well outside the human 'game of thrones'. I don't see any of the surviving protagonists as even wanting a title other than Cercei and Dany.

Sansa wants one.  Sansa wants to be at least the Queen in the North, and Jon setting aside the title and kneeling to Dany has screwed up her plans good and proper.

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6 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Daenerys is the Queen

How so? She just said so herself, nothing else.

A Queen of the Seven Kingdoms is not made queen, because old Olenna says yes. Or any Dorne bastard.

She either conquers the Iron throne or is elected by the Seven Kingdoms.

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5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

They found the chains in Hardhome, they did not forge them themselves.

We only know that water is a problem for wights. Not for necessarily for White Walkers. The Nightking even had not problems with fire up at the cave of the three-eyed raven, while wights are easily killed by fire.

The contrary is shown in the wight excursion scene. Wight do not go into water, but they can go over ice. We do not know what White Walkers can or cannot.

I’ve never really understood the obsession with where those chains came from. Found them or made them doesn’t make much difference.  Looking at their armor its quite plain that the WWs are capable of pretty sophisticated manufacturing and metal working (or—less likely—trade with someone with those capabilities). And that raises all sorts of interesting questions. Is there a city someplace with WW blacksmiths? And what do they do when they’re not leading an army of the dead? 

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