US Politics: It’s Not A Crime If Your Feelings Got Hurt

[Paladin of Ice]

14 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Bad experiences shape us and teach us about the mistakes we've made in the past. The mistake isn't the thing to focus on. Look more at the individual growth and how the candidate, or person in general, expresses said growth.

I agree in general, but how do you tell with each specific case if this has actually happened, especially with someone running for president? Why shouldn't I believe that Biden wouldn't still favor the sort of policies that made dollar signs show up in the eyes of credit card and debt collection companies? Why should I believe that he'll take the right steps on mass incarceration? Me Too? Systemic racism? Income inequality? Worker rights and protections? Etc.

I mean, I know that anyone who actually looks at policy is very much the exception to the rule and most people are just happy to have a folksy, charming guy to vote for, (not on this board but in general in America) but I would actually like to make some headway on those issues sometime in my lifetime. I know it probably won't happen for various reasons, (including that something like 1/5 of the judiciary and 2-3 members of SCOTUS will be Trump appointees before he's out of office even if we vote him out in 2020, and they will fight to stop any efforts to undo Trump's rampant stupidity and viciousness) but it would certainly be nice. And as far as believing that a candidate will take action on any of those fronts, Biden is pretty far down the list for me.

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AKA primary voters. If I was a gambling man I'd bet that Biden has already plateaued.

Yeah. Like I said with primary voters Biden will be much more popular than with the larger field of Democratic voters, and the media do love themselves a centrist, so if the activists of the party don't get involved during the primary Uncle Joe will have a far better chance than he logically should. But I'm similarly doubtful that his number of core voters will grow much, unless the low information voter crowd really gets drawn to Biden's charm and tragic life story.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I regret every Biden/Obama meme I ever shared or liked.

Edit: in the interest of contributing something constructive, read this rebuke of the media coverage of the 4 B's

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But did you know that there are also some women—and some people of color—running? I can’t thrust them onto the cover of Vanity Fair, but I can tell you that if you’re excited that Beto O’Rourke reads books—and it is, indeed, a big plus that someone reads books—well, good news: Elizabeth Warren has written 11 books. Upset that Biden is too touchy feely? Kirsten Gillibrand has actively fought against men who overstep boundaries, and, additionally, not groped anyone herself!

In spite of that, every time a woman does something successfully, people seem determined to skew it to show how successful a man was. Look at Ryan Lizza and Chris Cillizza tweeting about how Kamala Harris raising more funds than Pete Buttigieg just makes Buttigieg look better. Kamala raised $5 million more than him.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

I regret every Biden/Obama meme I ever shared or liked.

Why?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Why?

Because it was free press for Biden 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

I agree in general, but how do you tell with each specific case if this has actually happened, especially with someone running for president? Why shouldn't I believe that Biden wouldn't still favor the sort of policies that made dollar signs show up in the eyes of credit card and debt collection companies? Why should I believe that he'll take the right steps on mass incarceration? Me Too? Systemic racism? Income inequality? Worker rights and protections? Etc.

I mean, I know that anyone who actually looks at policy is very much the exception to the rule and most people are just happy to have a folksy, charming guy to vote for, (not on this board but in general in America) but I would actually like to make some headway on those issues sometime in my lifetime. I know it probably won't happen for various reasons, (including that something like 1/5 of the judiciary and 2-3 members of SCOTUS will be Trump appointees before he's out of office even if we vote him out in 2020, and they will fight to stop any efforts to undo Trump's rampant stupidity and viciousness) but it would certainly be nice. And as far as believing that a candidate will take action on any of those fronts, Biden is pretty far down the list for me.

I would point to his stances on the LGBTQ community. At the beginning of his career he was pretty shaky on the issue, and yet he came out in support of same sex marriage before Obama and effectively forced his hand. I think Biden has done a good job expressing how he’s learned from his mistakes, be it how he handled the Anita Hill hearings or the Clinton crime bill. He’s not perfect and he’s not my preference at all, but he’s also not the worst choice possible. That would be Tulsi Gabbard.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

31 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Because it was free press for Biden 

Only at the margins. I wouldn’t think too much of it, and honestly I think people are being too harsh on Biden. I’ve said several times that I didn’t want him to run, but he’s earned the right to do so more than most of the people running.

[DanteGabriel]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I would point to his stances on the LGBTQ community. At the beginning of his career he was pretty shaky on the issue, and yet he came out in support of same sex marriage before Obama and effectively forced his hand. I think Biden has done a good job expressing how he’s learned from his mistakes, be it how he handled the Anita Hill hearings or the Clinton crime bill. He’s not perfect and he’s not my preference at all, but he’s also not the worst choice possible. That would be Tulsi Gabbard.

 

Not so sure about that...

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/anita-hill-wont-support-joe-biden-after-lacking-call-earlier-this-month

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Only at the margins. I wouldn’t think too much of it, and honestly I think people are being too harsh on Biden. I’ve said several times that I didn’t want him to run, but he’s earned the right to do so more than most of the people running.

They're not being too harsh - it's nuts to look at the rest of the field and say, you know what, I think we need Biden to take this one.  Other than the LGBTQ thing Biden's responses/apologies have been pretty weak and self-serving.  I'm all for people learning from their mistakes, but he's got a bunch of problems.  I hope if there's some more harassment or assault (sorry!  unwanted touching!  oops) it comes out now.  Would suck for someone to hold onto something like that until after he gets the nomination.

Biden is a great choice though if you want to minimize youth turnout.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

Not so sure about that...

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/anita-hill-wont-support-joe-biden-after-lacking-call-earlier-this-month

I kind of think she’ll never forgive him, which is her right because she was so thoroughly wronged,  but Biden has gone out of his way on several occasions to apologize and say he was in the wrong. What more can he do?

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

They're not being too harsh - it's nuts to look at the rest of the field and say, you know what, I think we need Biden to take this one.  Other than the LGBTQ thing Biden's responses/apologies have been pretty weak and self-serving.  I'm all for people learning from their mistakes, but he's got a bunch of problems.  I hope if there's some more harassment or assault (sorry!  unwanted touching!  oops) it comes out now.  Would suck for someone to hold onto something like that until after he gets the nomination.

Biden is a great choice though if you want to minimize youth turnout.

Oh come on. People are making way too much out of this. Biden is just a touchy guy in general, and that goes for men too. He’s basically the drunk guy next to you at the urinal in a dive bar who puts his arm around your shoulder and starts talking to you as you’re both taking a leak. It’s a little creepy, but ultimately harmless. Calling it assault is way over the top.

[Zorral]

Two interesting pieces in the NYer.  One about the Mueller Report and impeachment, and the other wondering why, when the other candidates have chosen to go for what they are for, he's going for wart bashing.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/another-look-at-impeachment-after-the-mueller-report

and

https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/why-is-joe-biden-the-only-democrat-who-wants-to-talk-about-donald-trump

The conclusion of the first piece linked above:

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....But, on the whole, and taken on its own terms, the Mueller report is a powerful and positive document, because it is written testimony to the liberal faith in the power of rules and systems to bring order and justice. Mueller and his team were trying on every page of the report and in every instance to follow the rules, even if the rules they were following forced them into contorted prose and easily misrepresented positions. The rules are worth following, the underlying premise of the report insists, because only in accepting the rules can we insure justice. This is why the language of “norms” and their violation is misapplied to Trump and his conduct. What is at stake here are not “norms,” in the sense of ornamental ritual regularities in the conduct of office. What is at stake are rules—rules meant to insure objective judgment and fair dealing no matter who the subject may be or how you may feel about his or her conduct. These are fair-minded rules put in place by the painfully slow accession of power to procedure, equitable rules put in place over time and that, historically, remain vanishingly rare. As “Game of Thrones” reminds us—it may be the chief reason for the show’s current appeal—the rule of pure power asserting itself exactly as it likes whenever it likes is what most often happens among human beings.

This is why the idea that Mueller cleverly engineered his report to force Congress to act misses the point. Mueller didn’t intend it. The rules did. This is why impeachment—at least attempting to remove from power someone obviously unfit to hold it, whatever the outcome may be—has, within a week, passed from a distant speculative possibility to what seems to many like a primary moral duty. It is being miscast as a prudential act, or even as an act of overdue partisan aggression. Right now, it seems more like collective self-defense against a common danger.

 

 

[Zorral]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What more can he do?

Not to have done what he did in the first place, because what he did was wrong, and spoiled her life.v  He refuses to accept he spoiled her life in many ways.  That he didn't completely spoil it is due to her great courage and character alone -- the kind of courage and character that Biden lacks. 

As for urinal touchy feely, while working out deals that good for big credit card companies and banks,  being no big deal -- just -- disgusting.  Do not want somebody like that in the oval representing me.

 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I kind of think she’ll never forgive him, which is her right because she was so thoroughly wronged,  but Biden has gone out of his way on several occasions to apologize and say he was in the wrong. What more can he do?

Oh come on. People are making way too much out of this. Biden is just a touchy guy in general, and that goes for men too. He’s basically the drunk guy next to you at the urinal in a dive bar who puts his arm around your shoulder and starts talking to you as you’re both taking a leak. It’s a little creepy, but ultimately harmless. Calling it assault is way over the top.

My point is that if you want to get all politically pragmatic about it, don't even nominate a man.  Especially someone from Biden's generation, where we've already had women come forward and say that his touching has made them uncomfortable.  The guy, while probably a decent person, is a fucking disaster in the making of a candidate.  

[DanteGabriel]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I kind of think she’ll never forgive him, which is her right because she was so thoroughly wronged,  but Biden has gone out of his way on several occasions to apologize and say he was in the wrong. What more can he do?

It doesn't matter how many times you try to make amends if you do it half-assedly every time. This is a weird tone to take, that the reason Biden hasn't been forgiven by Anita Hill is because of her unwillingness to forgive. How unusual that a black woman who's been wronged by a powerful old white man is somehow to blame all over again.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Pretty decent introduction to Julian Castro, if you're not familiar with him, interviewed by the New Yorker, focusing on immigration reform.

[Fragile Bird]

On CNN this morning someone was commenting about how other candidates have tip-toed around Trump, and how Biden went right after him in his video. And how Trump has jumped to the bait, and how he has made Charlottesville a topic of conversation as he tries to defend himself. Biden has pulled a Trump on Trump. Who else has done that? Others have just drawn insults.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Not to have done what he did in the first place, because what he did was wrong

Well since this isn’t actually possible, let’s try to stick with what is. If someone did something similar to you, what level of atonement would it take for you to forgive them? Honest question.  

32 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

My point is that if you want to get all politically pragmatic about it, don't even nominate a man.  Especially someone from Biden's generation, where we've already had women come forward and say that his touching has made them uncomfortable.  The guy, while probably a decent person, is a fucking disaster in the making of a candidate.  

I’m not sure that’s a wise pretense, and that’s coming from someone who strongly supporters Harris. But I do agree that someone from Biden’s generation should not be the nominee, and all the evidence it should take is the tech hearings in Congress. The older members lacked even the most basic grasp of the internet and the tech sector. However, my point was that Biden has earned the right to run. That doesn’t mean I want him to win the nomination. I’d actually dread it.   

30 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

It doesn't matter how many times you try to make amends if you do it half-assedly every time. This is a weird tone to take, that the reason Biden hasn't been forgiven by Anita Hill is because of her unwillingness to forgive. How unusual that a black woman who's been wronged by a powerful old white man is somehow to blame all over again. This is kind of a gross reaction, frankly, especially with your shrug at Tyreek Hill's problems in the NFL thread. 

How did I specifically blame her? I said it was her right not to forgive him. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t tried to sincerely apologize, even if you find his attempts to be ham-handed.

I see that you edited the part about Tyreek Hill, but it serves as a good analogy. The left has got to stop trying to out-outrage one another. It’s a self-defeating path, much like Florio should shut up about saying he’ll stop watching football if Hill ever plays again.

[DanteGabriel]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How did I specifically blame her? I said it was her right not to forgive him. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t tried to sincerely apologize, even if you find his attempts to be ham-handed.

I see that you edited the part about Tyreek Hill, but it serves as a good analogy. The left has got to stop trying to out-outrage one another. It’s a self-defeating path, much like Florio should shut up about saying he’ll stop watching football if Hill ever plays again.

Come on, dude. Very gracious of you to acknowledge her "right" not to forgive him, but you're literally making no room for the possibility that his apologies are insincere and insulting. He even said on the View that he didn't think he treated her badly. So he's apologized that something unfortunate happened to Anita Hill without acknowledging that he was the ringmaster for the circus they ran. If Anita Hill thinks that Joe Biden hasn't really owned up to the shitshow he put on, she's not wrong, and it's not her fault, and certainly not just because she might not possess the capability to forgive. I mean, what's more likely: that Anita Hill is unable to properly forgive, or that Joe Biden is unable to properly apologize?

This isn't about out-outraging each other, it's about getting a plutocrat to acknowledge and admit that he wronged a vulnerable woman when he should have been helping her. Nor is being disgusted by a guy who regularly beats his girlfriend and toddler about out-outraging each other. In retrospect I regret removing the Hill thing because you're just doubling down on this "stop being so over-sensitive" act that's the default stance of Midwestern white guy Democrats.

[Larry of the Lawn]

27 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

.  

I’m not sure that’s a wise pretense, and that’s coming from someone who strongly supporters Harris. But I do agree that someone from Biden’s generation should not be the nominee, and all the evidence it should take is the tech hearings in Congress. The older members lacked even the most basic grasp of the internet and the tech sector. However, my point was that Biden has earned the right to run. That doesn’t mean I want him to win the nomination. I’d actually dread it.   

 

.

 

Anyone who is 35 and born here has earned the right to run.  Doesn't change the fact that Biden hasn't even done a good job of moving on from his mistakes, is out of touch with younger voters, and is a shitty candidate.  And a metoo disaster waiting to happen.   

 

[Fragile Bird]

Didn't Hill say she's not accepting any apologies until there's 'real change' in the way sexual harassment complaints are dealt with. That means she's not accepting any apology. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Come on, dude. Very gracious of you to acknowledge her "right" not to forgive him, but you're literally making no room for the possibility that his apologies are insincere and insulting. He even said on the View that he didn't think he treated her badly. So he's apologized that something unfortunate happened to Anita Hill without acknowledging that he was the ringmaster for the circus they ran. If Anita Hill thinks that Joe Biden hasn't really owned up to the shitshow he put on, she's not wrong, and it's not her fault, and certainly not just because she might not possess the capability to forgive. I mean, what's more likely: that Anita Hill is unable to properly forgive, or that Joe Biden is unable to properly apologize?

No I’m not. I’m arguing that it’s not black and white. Biden can feel like he gave a heartfelt apology and Hill can feel like it wasn’t good enough or that it was insincere, and we as voters can decide how we feel about it at the polls. I’ve always maintained that what Biden did was gross and wrong, but I can also recognize that he’s tried to make amends for what he did, albeit in a clumsy way. And if you disagree and think his apology is BS, that’s fine too. Regardless, neither of us will be voting for him in the primary.

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This isn't about out-outraging each other, it's about getting a plutocrat to acknowledge and admit that he wronged a vulnerable woman when he should have been helping her. Nor is being disgusted by a guy who regularly beats his girlfriend and toddler about out-outraging each other. In retrospect I regret removing the Hill thing because you're just doubling down on this "stop being so over-sensitive" act that's the default stance of Midwestern white guy Democrats.

No it’s not. It’s a reasonable person saying that it’s ludicrous to say that you’re going to stop watching a sport if one guy ever plays again, just like it was nuts for someone to say that they’re moving to Canada if Trump wins. You can be outraged, but has some perspective. And the left has been losing that. We are increasingly eating our own over things that, while bad, should not be damning, and that only hurts us, especially when Republicans have decided not to have any sense of accountability.