Rickon is destined to be new Lord of Winterfell

[BlackLightning]

9 minutes ago, The Snow Queen said:

If you look at foreshadowing and the trajectory of Sansa's (and Jon's) narrative that they are most likely to be ruling the North. Jon and Sansa are the only ones of the Starks who dream of rebuilding Winterfell. They are the only ones of the Starks who refer themselves as the 'blood of Winterfell'. They are the only ones of the Starks who want to have children. King and Queen imagery is very strong in their narratives too. This may make some people uncomfortable, but there is also a lot of foreshadowing of Jon and Sansa end up marrying each other.

Not to contradict you at all but Arya has also called herself the blood of Winterfell.

[The Snow Queen]

7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Not to contradict you at all but Arya has also called herself the blood of Winterfell.

If that is true, my apologies then. It's been a while since I read the books. Either way, I still believe that Jon and Sansa will be the ones ruling the North. As for Rickon's role - I don't know. It's hard to pinpoint because of his lack of presence in the story. However, of one thing, I am certain is that due to his absence the chance of him being in a position of authority is slim. GRRM seems to dislike the idea of a character ruling solely because of their birthright. It's for this reason why he criticized Tolkien. 

[BlackLightning]

10 minutes ago, The Snow Queen said:

If that is true, my apologies then. It's been a while since I read the books. Either way, I still believe that Jon and Sansa will be the ones ruling the North. As for Rickon's role - I don't know. It's hard to pinpoint because of his lack of presence in the story. However, of one thing, I am certain is that due to his absence the chance of him being in a position of authority is slim. GRRM seems to dislike the idea of a character ruling solely because of their birthright. It's for this reason why he criticized Tolkien. 

I would agree.

There is nothing about Arya that points to her having children. It is to be noted that when Arya calls herself the blood of Winterfell, she is comparing herself to Robb the warrior king. She does not think of homemaking and lording like Jon and Sansa do whenever they call themselves the blood of Winterfell.

[Lion of the West]

18 hours ago, The Snow Queen said:

If you look at foreshadowing and the trajectory of Sansa's (and Jon's) narrative that they are most likely to be ruling the North. Jon and Sansa are the only ones of the Starks who dream of rebuilding Winterfell. They are the only ones of the Starks who refer themselves as the 'blood of Winterfell'. They are the only ones of the Starks who want to have children. King and Queen imagery is very strong in their narratives too. This may make some people uncomfortable, but there is also a lot of foreshadowing of Jon and Sansa end up marrying each other.

I can't say that I have kept all the details about the Starks in my memory, as I look more towards the Lion than the Wolf, but you make a compelling argument in a way. Jon is a not a bad partner for Sansa, even if I do have a certain fan theory that I hold dear to my heart that Sansa will use her wedding with Tyrion to claim the Westerlands and become its next Lady Paramount.

[The Snow Queen]

There is a lot of foreshadowing towards Jon/Sansa ending up marrying. Sansa's first love was Waymar Royce:

He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife.

- AGOT, Prologue

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

- AGOT, Bran

Should Sansa and Jon meet in the next book, and I believe they will, the chances she will be attracted towards him is very high.

He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren Winterfell.

- AGOT, Catelyn

Interesting choice of wording. It would be hilarious and ironic if Catelyn's grandchildren end up being Jon's children too.

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you are old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. This boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

- AGOT, Sansa.

She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once but none of them came. She called for the heroes of the songs, for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the dragon knight, but no one heard.

- ACOK Sansa.

They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I am Prince Aemon the dragon knight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I am the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

- ASOS, Jon

Notice how almost all of Sansa's heroes match with the ones Jon used to pretend to be as a child.

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I've been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who was shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?" Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne." "No that wasn't it." Jaime upended the flagon. A trickled ran down unto his face, bright as blood. "Snow, that was the one. Such a white name ... like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths."

- ACOK, Catelyn

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The Sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

- ACOK, Sansa

A foreshadowing to Sansa marrying a certain Snow who has Targaryen blood? I would say yes. 

"Frog-faced Lord Slynt at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead ... wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside of her whispered. "There are no heroes..."

- ACOK Sansa

"I will not hang him," said Jon. "Bring him here." "Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed LongClaw."

- ASOS, Jon

The implication is very simple and bold: Jon will be the hero and true knight that Sansa always wanted.

[Lion of the West]

16 hours ago, The Snow Queen said:

There is a lot of foreshadowing towards Jon/Sansa ending up marrying. Sansa's first love was Waymar Royce:

He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife.

- AGOT, Prologue

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

- AGOT, Bran

Should Sansa and Jon meet in the next book, and I believe they will, the chances she will be attracted towards him is very high.

He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren Winterfell.

- AGOT, Catelyn

Interesting choice of wording. It would be hilarious and ironic if Catelyn's grandchildren end up being Jon's children too.

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you are old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. This boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

- AGOT, Sansa.

She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once but none of them came. She called for the heroes of the songs, for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the dragon knight, but no one heard.

- ACOK Sansa.

They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I am Prince Aemon the dragon knight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I am the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

- ASOS, Jon

Notice how almost all of Sansa's heroes match with the ones Jon used to pretend to be as a child.

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I've been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who was shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?" Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne." "No that wasn't it." Jaime upended the flagon. A trickled ran down unto his face, bright as blood. "Snow, that was the one. Such a white name ... like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths."

- ACOK, Catelyn

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The Sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

- ACOK, Sansa

A foreshadowing to Sansa marrying a certain Snow who has Targaryen blood? I would say yes. 

"Frog-faced Lord Slynt at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead ... wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside of her whispered. "There are no heroes..."

- ACOK Sansa

"I will not hang him," said Jon. "Bring him here." "Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed LongClaw."

- ASOS, Jon

The implication is very simple and bold: Jon will be the hero and true knight that Sansa always wanted.

I didn't mean, or want to say, that I doubted there were these hints of Sansa and Jon. Only that I've got my own fan theories, no matter how far fetched they are, and hold them close to my heart.

[The Snow Queen]

14 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

I didn't mean, or want to say, that I doubted there were these hints of Sansa and Jon. Only that I've got my own fan theories, no matter how far fetched they are, and hold them close to my heart.

Then my apologies for making assumptions. Sansa is my favorite character and I have high standards for her future partner. The mere thought of Sansa being stuck with Lannisters/Tyrion isn't bittersweet to me, it's tragic.

[The Mother of The Others]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:24 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

So basically the Ironborn are the bad guys of the series, with the Drowned God being the big bad puppetmaster. The true enemy of everyone

Or, used properly by Asha & Theon (& maybe Aeron),  the anti-magic power from the sea would be what proper evolution looks like in a magical world.  It's humanity gaining some immunity to magic at last, like a virus grows resistant to drugs.  We finally would be players in the unnatural game the Children have always played.  Maybe Euron burns up trying to grab this power unwisely, but the wise Vulcans can weild it and humanity can stand on its own against the terrors of the night.  Maybe the wall could finally come down.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

I think Rickon is a dead end, story wise, which is why his wolf is called shaggy dog. Rickon is a shaggy dog story. Dead end. 

My hope for Skagos is that Davos acquires some kind of useful information there that may help them defeat the Others. 

[Lion of the West]

14 hours ago, The Snow Queen said:

Then my apologies for making assumptions. Sansa is my favorite character and I have high standards for her future partner. The mere thought of Sansa being stuck with Lannisters/Tyrion isn't bittersweet to me, it's tragic.

I understand your position although I'd like to clarify that I don't mean that Sansa will stay physically together with Tyrion or some other Lannister as a husband. I mean that she would become the ruling Lady Paramount, not a Lord Paramount's consort, over the Westerlands. If she would adopt the Lannister name I would be esctatic but I also understand that't not to everyone's tastes.

The idea is that there would be no prominent Lannister left and so Sansa could use her formal marriage with Tyrion to claim the Westerlands without being physically close to Tyrion or having him take part in the running of the Westerlands in any way.

Personally I love both the Lannisters and Sansa so if I can get the same in one, that would make my day, or year, or decade(s).

[chrisdaw]

There's nothing for Sansa's arc in the north. She's not going north, she's going to KL to play the game of thrones.

[The Snow Queen]

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

There's nothing for Sansa's arc in the north. She's not going north, she's going to KL to play the game of thrones.

Whether you like it or not Sansa is going North. Not only does her Vale plot line have strong Jon imagery going on her TWOW chapter is prove of that she is going to take matters in her own hand and flee the Vale and go to Castle Black. She will suffer along the way, but make no mistake, Sansa will get to her family.

[chrisdaw]

48 minutes ago, The Snow Queen said:

Whether you like it or not Sansa is going North. Not only does her Vale plot line have strong Jon imagery going on her TWOW chapter is prove of that she is going to take matters in her own hand and flee the Vale and go to Castle Black. She will suffer along the way, but make no mistake, Sansa will get to her family.

No, Sansa going north is a concoction of Sansa fans who still don't get the actual point of the character. The Vale is a mini KL with its own political web for her cut her teeth on, learning lessons through both successes and failures. Once she graduates from the Vale she will go to KL and play the true game for real.

There is absolutely nothing in the north for her arc.

[The Snow Queen]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

No, Sansa going north is a concoction of Sansa fans who still don't get the actual point of the character. The Vale is a mini KL with its own political web for her cut her teeth on, learning lessons through both successes and failures. Once she graduates from the Vale she will go to KL and play the true game for real.

There is absolutely nothing in the north for her arc.

Sansa will not be 'graduating' in the vale because at the end of the day Little Finger is not teaching her. He sees her as his pawn and will keep her largely ignorant and Sansa can't afford that. Besides even if he did go out of his way to teach her Sansa would reject most of his teaching. Look at how she responded to Cersei. What she needs is someone who would give her positive political advice, someone who doesn't think she is a stupid little girl, someone who won't use her as a pawn, and right now the only person who fits in this criteria is Jon Snow.

[chrisdaw]

34 minutes ago, The Snow Queen said:

Sansa will not be 'graduating' in the vale because at the end of the day Little Finger is not teaching her. He sees her as his pawn and will keep her largely ignorant and Sansa can't afford that. Besides even if he did go out of his way to teach her Sansa would reject most of his teaching. Look at how she responded to Cersei. What she needs is someone who would give her positive political advice, someone who doesn't think she is a stupid little girl, someone who won't use her as a pawn, and right now the only person who fits in this criteria is Jon Snow.

She's responded to Cersei by channelling her. She responds to LF by taking on board his direction and teachings. That's what Sansa does, she's a parrot, she watches and listens, learns, recites. That's why she's a fast learner. That's why she's been under the power of Cersei and LF, with a front row seat to Marge. She has unwittingly learnt the game of thrones, and now she will play it. That's the arc. That's what the character was created to explore.

She will be graduating from the Vale. The north is Jon's training ground as the Vale is Sansa's. The two do not overlap, she's given about two fucking lines of thought to Jon the whole series. Her graduation is LF's death. To kill a mockingbird is to destroy one's innocence, when Sansa orchestrates LF's death she will have killed a mockingbird in more ways than one, and entered the big league, KL, to play her way up in the background during the chaos of the dance, as LF did TWOt5Ks.

KL, the south, where will be her husband, the little man snarling in the midst of it all who just so happens to be extremely vulnerable to the manipulations of young beautiful girls. Down the road from the knight for whom she's the last chance at honour. The warrior woman who swore an oath to protect her. The newly devout set to sacrifice everything to be the Faith's highest recruit, who treated Sansa terribly but whom Sansa was ever gracious and merciful towards. Where is her first teacher and foremost abuser, the queen she's set to bring down. And of course around the corner from the reborn Sandor whom she can't help wet dreaming about.

Those are her pawns. The board is KL. The central question of the arc is can she play the game of thrones and remain Sansa Stark? Playing the game as she's learnt it requires one be dishonourable, fuck people over and cause collateral damage, and so the question becomes is she any better than Cersei? Is Sansa Stark or Sansa Lannister the more apt name?

[The Snow Queen]

No, that is what you want Sansa to be. What Sansa's narrative is about is holding true to your ideals no matter what adversity you face. That when you uphold the values you learned from the songs makes the stories come true. Sansa's story speaks to the story behind a song of ice and fire. And the second one is to get away from the tower she has been locked up in - physically and psychologically. Not only to break free from those who want to keep her a pawn but also to become the lady she wants to be on her own terms rather than what society dictates. Sansa is the deconstruction of the Princess in the Tower and in order to be truly deconstructed she needs to literally break free from the tower (the vale). Her arc is about setting her wings and fly, to get in touch with her inner wolf. And no matter how much you want to deny it Sansa is a she-wolf. Her place is in the North with her family and I find it sad you want to deny that from her. 

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

...

KL, the south, where will be her husband, the little man snarling in the midst of it all who just so happens to be extremely vulnerable to the manipulations of young beautiful girls. Down the road from the knight for whom she's the last chance at honour. The warrior woman who swore an oath to protect her. The newly devout set to sacrifice everything to be the Faith's highest recruit, who treated Sansa terribly but whom Sansa was ever gracious and merciful towards. Where is her first teacher and foremost abuser, the queen she's set to bring down. And of course around the corner from the reborn Sandor whom she can't help wet dreaming about.

Those are her pawns. The board is KL....

Very good. But a chess board, or cyvasse board, has two ends. A game of thrones has at least two thrones.

There's no contradiction between Sansa's wishes being orientated to the north (undeniable) and Sansa's experience being focused on the game of thrones.

The Others have a culture too. We've seen one of them fight a duel with Waymar exactly as a human would (only with better weapons). In their own style, they have a culture, they have leaders, they have a throne.

It appears that the Starks over the years have had a special place in the battle against winter ('there must always be a Stark....') Sending a Stark south would be a stupid waste of an important playing piece.

I don't know about Rickon through. He's too young to have much influence apart from his precious kingsblood. And the colours of his wolf are the inverse of Jon's Ghost - maybe you can have Jon or Rickon, but not both.

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

... The central question of the arc is can she play the game of thrones and remain Sansa Stark? Playing the game as she's learnt it requires one be dishonourable, fuck people over and cause collateral damage, and so the question becomes is she any better than Cersei? Is Sansa Stark or Sansa Lannister the more apt name?

That would be a pretty pointless arc when winter is coming.

Love her or loathe her, Sansa has been given a lot of page space in the story. She has a place in it. Whatever her arc is, it will not end in a side issue.

(Actually I have hopes that Cersei will not end as a side issue either, but unless she allies herself with the Others, she cannot be the ultimate foe of the Starks.)

3 hours ago, The Snow Queen said:

... What Sansa's narrative is about is holding true to your ideals no matter what adversity you face. That the stories can be true. This book series is called A Song of Ice and Fire for a good reason....

Agree.

The author decided to make Sansa a fine singer - if a Song of Ice and Fire has any meaning at all, she will have a place in it.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Sansa isn't going back to King's Landing.  That's completely ridiculous.  My guess is that she will tell Robert that Littlefinger wants to kill him, and then promise to marry him, while revealing her identity.  But since Robert is a Lord, and Sansa doesn't have a castle anymore, he needs to help her take back Winterfell.

[BlackLightning]

If Sansa ever goes back at King's Landing, it'd have to be an absolute emergency and she'd have to be absolutely desperate. Both of those are possible given the circumstances that we are talking about magical monsters, inhuman entities and paranormal weather conditions creating the end of the world.

Sansa wants to go back home so she can rebuild. Her family is all beginning to converge and converge they will...in Winterfell. Where else? There hasn't been a Stark in Winterfell since Bran and Rickon went their separate ways in A Clash of Kings.

If Sansa goes back to King's Landing (very possible), it won't happen until well into the middle of A Dream of Spring. Maybe Winterfell will be trashed so badly that it is unlivable.

[chrisdaw]

There's nothing to really even address in what you've all written. She-wolves and Starks must fight the Others, it's just pure projection without any direction taken from what the text has provided.