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Pandean

Sansa's desire to be Queen

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Sometimes it's brought up that Sansa always wanted to be queen and I think it's personally taken the wrong way, sometimes.

Both Cersei and Margaery wanted to be Queen, but they wanted it specifically for the power. Whenever Sansa mentions being Queen both in book and show, for the most part, it's all about being married to a king, having his babies, and holding his court. Obviously this notion disappears swiftly once Joffrey shows his true colors and her father dies. But I think there's a distinction regarding  her and the other female political 'queen' characters. 

So yeah, Sansa wanted to be Queen. But she didn't want to be Queen for the power it gave her. Her idea of Queen was being the wife of the King.

Is Sansa power-hungry now? Personally, I think maybe a little bit. But I think it's because she desires safety for herself and her family versus being power-hungry for the point of power like Littlefinger and other characters. 

Which I don't blame her, tbh. 

But yeah. I just wanted to bring this up and didn't think there was an appropriate thread to post it. I swear I talk about other GOT things other than Sansa.

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I agree that at first Sansa wanted to be queen because she had an ideal image of what being a queen would be like (like most children who dream of being a prince or princess).  Meeting Cersei and Joffrey destroyed that naive fantasy, but the desire to be queen still lived in Sansa, it merely changed the reason she wanted to be queen. 

She saw how self-absorbed and cynical Cersei was and wanted to be a different type of queen, a queen that is beloved by her people.  And she would accomplish that by putting the people first.  Which is what we see her doing as Lady of Winterfell.  Sure she is not perfect but she truly cares about the opinions of her lords and ladies, and in the survival of her people. 

Instead of throwing lavish parties and wearing fancy dresses (which would have been her idea of a queen and something Cersei would do) she is handling the nitty gritty of making sure that the common people have enough food to survive winter and trying to keep the peace between the lords and their king, no longer king.

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Considering Sansa's (non)actions post BotB, it seems that her feelings about being "a queen" are quite complicated (or simply bad writing). It seems she likes to be in charge but at the same time she has basically no problem to let Jon lead.

I really thought at the end of S6 that she would be mad that the lords elected Jon, a bastard, instead of her and that she would join LF and "the dark side of the force" to get her crown. As she did no such thing, I suppose that she isn't really power hungry.

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17 hours ago, Pandean said:

So yeah, Sansa wanted to be Queen. But she didn't want to be Queen for the power it gave her. Her idea of Queen was being the wife of the King.

I agree. Sansa wanted to be queen for the reputation, the amenities, the nice dresses, the little princes and princesses... quite naive, dumb young girl dreams.

17 hours ago, Pandean said:

Both Cersei and Margaery wanted to be Queen, but they wanted it specifically for the power.

Well, Cersei wants it for the power, the would really prefer queen regent over queen consort quite a lot. However, Margaery probably wants it for richness, prestige, status. Margaery is not power-fixated, but feels fine with gaining access to whatever she wants by careful manipulation  on the side of the king.

17 hours ago, Pandean said:

 Is Sansa power-hungry now? Personally, I think maybe a little bit. But I think it's because she desires safety for herself and her family versus being power-hungry for the point of power like Littlefinger and other characters. 

Well, she wants to win the game of thrones because she understood now how the game is played. She understood intrigue, tricks, and the play for power. I don't think she is really greedy for power in itself.  Maybe one driving force is to never be subjected again to someone else's power plays. 

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It feels to me that while she started with some idealized view of what a queen was, at this point what she really wants is to be rewarded for all that she has endured.  To her I think that reward is to get into a place where other people don't get to make decisions that deeply affect her.

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34 minutes ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

It feels to me that while she started with some idealized view of what a queen was, at this point what she really wants is to be rewarded for all that she has endured.  To her I think that reward is to get into a place where other people don't get to make decisions that deeply affect her.

Yeah. And I'd add to that that she wants to be in a place where she has enough power to ensure she's safe and stuff. 

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53 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, she wants to win the game of thrones because she understood now how the game is played. She understood intrigue, tricks, and the play for power. I don't think she is really greedy for power in itself.  Maybe one driving force is to never be subjected again to someone else's power plays. 

Agreed. I think in general her end goal is to be safe enough from other people's power plays and whatnot. I don't think she has her sights set on the iron throne or anything like that. I think her goal is safety and also her family's safety. 

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4 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

I agree that at first Sansa wanted to be queen because she had an ideal image of what being a queen would be like (like most children who dream of being a prince or princess).  Meeting Cersei and Joffrey destroyed that naive fantasy, but the desire to be queen still lived in Sansa, it merely changed the reason she wanted to be queen. 

She saw how self-absorbed and cynical Cersei was and wanted to be a different type of queen, a queen that is beloved by her people.  And she would accomplish that by putting the people first.  Which is what we see her doing as Lady of Winterfell.  Sure she is not perfect but she truly cares about the opinions of her lords and ladies, and in the survival of her people. 

Instead of throwing lavish parties and wearing fancy dresses (which would have been her idea of a queen and something Cersei would do) she is handling the nitty gritty of making sure that the common people have enough food to survive winter and trying to keep the peace between the lords and their king, no longer king.

If I am ever Queen I'll make them love me

I don't really think she wants to be Queen anymore. I think moreso she wants to have enough power to be safe.

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52 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Both Cersei and Margaery wanted to be Queen, but they wanted it specifically for the power

In the show, Margaery specifically says, when asked if she would want to be a queen, her answer was affirmative, but not only did she want to be queen, but she wanted to be "The Queen," meaning taking over Cersei's place as queen of the 7 kingdoms, not just a queen of some smaller state. 

My sense of Sansa is that she understands now what being a queen actually consists of, and that it doesn't even necessarily include wearing a crown.  A queen is someone who takes care of her family, does everything to keep them safe, and thus, by extension, does this for the larger 'family' on the lands where she, or she and her husband, live. My sense is that this is all that matters to Sansa now, after all she's been through.  Too bad about those damned zombies ....

That first episode was all about families. One by one we see the Westros primary families and what they mean to our primary characters -- and what this will mean in term of the finale's endgame(s): Starks, Lannisters, Greyjoys, Tarleys.  And even ... Targaryan.  Queen Daenerys seems to be only one of these Names without any family -- unless, one counts her dragons, and ... Jon. 

Jon is both Stark and Targaryan, which can make a great deal of in terms of story, if we so wish. 

But then, he's also, technically, dead ... of which a great deal in terms of story can be made as well.  One keeps thinking of that reanimated child of Queen Daenerys, and what maybe a dead half Targaryan could do with that dragon taken by by the Night King.

It's only speculation.  :idea:  One can come up with dozens of speculations every minute of the day.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Agreed. I think in general her end goal is to be safe enough from other people's power plays and whatnot. I don't think she has her sights set on the iron throne or anything like that. I think her goal is safety and also her family's safety. 

She also knows by know that she is smarter than most of these people, she might not feel she needs the seat itself to have real power, from a much safer position.

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15 minutes ago, Zorral said:

But then, he's also, technically, dead

Jon is alive. He has been resurrected. It makes no sense at all to call him dead. 

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3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Jon is alive. He has been resurrected. It makes no sense at all to call him dead. 

He died.  He was dead.  As what's his name says, who has been resurrected so often, each time one comes back from the nothingness that is death -- one is less.  He's not the Jon Snow of before. He died.

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4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

He was dead

That's the concept of resurrection. He was dead. No he is alive again. 

Whether he has changed or not, we do not know. We know what Beric reported about coming back and losing some.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

That's the concept of resurrection. He was dead. No he is alive again. 

Whether he has changed or not, we do not know. We know what Beric reported about coming back and losing some.

Is the Mountain alive?  Are the WWs alive? The wights?  All those dead who are back up on their feet are -- what?  Sort of like Lady Mormont saying she doesn't know what Jon Snow is now ....

 

Edited by Zorral

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I think Sansa is perfect to be Warden (ess?) of the North. Lady of Winterfell but gets to go to Kings Landing and other seats socially and politically. She may have once been content to grow up in Catelyns shoes but the role of women is changing in Westrosi politics and she wants more. She is capable of being in charge, given she has a proper council- including a master at arms and someone to remind her to be humble. If Dany would (without the chip) acknowledge her natural political ability she might respect her as a fellow rather than a threat. BUT I'm gonna be a bitch to anyone on the planet who dates my brother at first. Gotta know what she's about. Protective. 

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And the mountain was frankensteined. He has brain function but (easiest rendition) no soul. He's a soldier just a shell of a human without wants needs or independence. Not the same as the jon comeback. Also different from the undead. Jons soul stayed with him. 

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9 hours ago, Roux said:

And the mountain was frankensteined. He has brain function but (easiest rendition) no soul. He's a soldier just a shell of a human without wants needs or independence. Not the same as the jon comeback. Also different from the undead. Jons soul stayed with him. 

Correct, three completely different scenarios. The wights are simply dead bodies reanimated by magic, no brain, no organs, no blood pumping through their veins. The Mountain was saved from the brink of death by science, not brought back from the dead. He was evil before and is evil still. Jon was brought back to life by a priestess through the power of a god.

 

Sansa wants power over her own life and power to protects those she loves. How many times since she's been back at WF has she talked about being "home"?  She wants to be safe, and a queen (or king) is never truly safe. No, I don't think she wants to be queen anymore.

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She never wanted to play the game of thrones (there are book quotes to support it). Littlefinger was plotting to crown her queen, but she just wanted to go home.  She probably does want credit occasionally for her efforts. She is outspoken around Jon and its great because he needs someone to challenge him. 

"Do you want to lead one day? Then learn how to follow"

She's doing that well so far, but she can't stand Dany and refuses to follow her. Which is fine because she's followed long enough.

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4 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Correct, three completely different scenarios. The wights are simply dead bodies reanimated by magic, no brain, no organs, no blood pumping through their veins. The Mountain was saved from the brink of death by science, not brought back from the dead. He was evil before and is evil still. Jon was brought back to life by a priestess through the power of a god.

Agreed. Three entirely different scenarios.

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