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Discussing Sansa XXXV: Queens of Ice and Fire


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24 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

True, we still don't know why he did it. But I cant see Jon offering that as a real explanation. Otherwise he already lied to the Northern lords. So if he could lie to them, he couldn't lie to Dany? Its all very weird. Could just be bad writing but Sansa really did have a look of realization on her face.

Yes, Sansa was worried that Dany might have been using Jon, but she realized that Dany loves him too.  That's why she laughed.

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2 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Yes, Sansa was worried that Dany might have been using Jon, but she realized that Dany loves him too.  That's why she laughed.

Whats funny from her perspective about that though? why would that make her happy? She clearly still doesnt like Dany and she doesn't want Jon to have bent the knee for love because then she can't trust him as a leader. It looks so much better for her trust in Jon if he gave up his crown to save people, not tossed it away because he cant control his dick.

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Whats funny from her perspective about that though? why would that make her happy? She clearly still doesnt like Dany and she doesn't want Jon to have bent the knee for love because then she can't trust him as a leader. It looks so much better for her trust in Jon if he gave up his crown to save people, not tossed it away because he cant control his dick.

What makes you think she doesn't like Dany?  Sansa didn't know Dany and she explained in that conversation why she was cold to her.  Why wouldn't she be happy her brother is in love with someone who loves him back?

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1 minute ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

What makes you think she doesn't like Dany?  Sansa didn't know Dany and she explained in that conversation why she was cold to her.  Why wouldn't she be happy her brother is in love with someone who loves him back?

Did you miss her shooting daggers at Dany all last episode? And this was just women being fake nice now.

Jon: "Do you not have any faith in me at all?" 

Jon would betray that faith if he fell in love with someone who wants to SUBJUGATE the North and his people! Sansa wants independence, which means autonomy to rule only with people she trusts (Jon).

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Did you miss her shooting daggers at Dany all last episode? And this was just women being fake nice now.

Jon: "Do you not have any faith in me at all?" 

Jon would betray that faith if he fell in love with someone who wants to SUBJUGATE the North and his people! Sansa wants independence, which means autonomy to rule only with people she trusts (Jon).

Did you miss the episode tonight?  Sansa's coldness was explained in that scene with Sansa and Dany and I just explained to you what the scene meant!  And others have already explained that it's not about Sansa or Jon wanting to remain independent, it's about the Northerners not willing to bend the knee again.  You can't lead if your subjects can't trust you.

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2 hours ago, Pandean said:

That Theon and Sansa reunion broke my heart. Those two are just. Ahh. Platonic Theon and Sansa is one of my favorite pairings. 

Me too. I wasn't sure what to expect, but I've always been routing for Theon to redeem himself, and he has, certainly in Sansa's eyes at least.

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7 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Did you miss the episode tonight?  Sansa's coldness was explained in that scene with Sansa and Dany and I just explained to you what the scene meant!  And others have already explained that it's not about Sansa or Jon wanting to remain independent, it's about the Northerners not willing to bend the knee again.  You can't lead if your subjects can't trust you.

Why would she be happy Dany and Jon are in love? "Did you bend the knee for the North or because you love her?" Code for: are you looking out for the North or your new girlfriend's interests? If he gave it away for love, thats irresponsible. That question creates an oppositional choice. Now I think she knows that answer, after this convo. 

Sansa wants Dany to grant the North's independence after the war, then Dany's hand fell in a close-up shot. Pretty clear thats a "no."

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12 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

And others have already explained that it's not about Sansa or Jon wanting to remain independent, it's about the Northerners not willing to bend the knee again.  You can't lead if your subjects can't trust you.

I had forgotten that the northerners swore they'd never bow (to an outsider) again, which explains even more their anger at Jon bending the knee than just that he betrayed their trust.

But I do think Sansa in heart wants the north to be independent, under the rule of someone she trusts because only then can she feel the she and her people are safe.

I thought Dany's comment about "who manipulated who?" was stupid, but her point was made, and that was that she agreed to follow Jon because she loves him therefore she can trust that Jon is not being manipulated by her. However, it also hints at the fact that Jon did NOT need to bend the knee to bring Dany into alliance against the AotD with them, meaning he lied to Sansa and their bannermen. Although I think in Jon's mind he still believes he needed to.

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa wants Dany to grant the North's independence after the war, then Dany's hand fell in a close-up shot. Pretty clear thats a "no."

Yep, set up for further conflict. If Jon and Sansa continue to swear fealty to Dany, the rest of the northerners could say, forget you Starks, you're not representing out interests and choose another leader who will fight for northern independence.

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5 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Although I think in Jon's mind he still believes he needed to.

I still think he needed to. Dany would view him as threatening, with a title. Even on wight hunt, he said she wanted him to bend the knee. Every time she says that, its a threat. 

Sansa really would lose faith in Jon if he lied to the Northern lords. She wouldn't much care if he lied to Dany.

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I still think he needed to. Dany would view him as threatening, with a title. Even on wight hunt, he said she wanted him to bend the knee. Every time she says that, its a threat. 

Yeah, I can see that. He didn't "technically" need to when he did cause she had already promised her help, but to ensure she didn't change her mind, he could feel the need to. It definitely makes for a more trusting alliance.

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3 hours ago, Pandean said:

I can see why Sansa would push for an independent North, actually. Out of all the living Starks she's the one who has bled the most for an independent North--first in King's Landing as a punishment every time Robb won a battle and then dealing with Ramsay, the Battle of the Bastards, and now with Dany here. So it can make sense to me. Plus an independent North is like, safety, in a way.

Well that's the thing, right? The War for the North was Sansa's fight, and the War against the Dead is Jon's. Of course they don't see eye to eye, even though they are both right. They are both aware of the other fight and care about it, but it's deeply personal for each of them in a way it's not for any of the others. So yeah, I absolutely understand her point of view.

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Sansa and Dany's conversation brought me major Margeary and Cersei vibes. 

It was not a friendly conversation, despite all their twittering and hand-holding. The vibe they ended with is the true vibe. Sansa manipulating Dany almost the whole conversation. Notice how she subtly got Dany to admit that she came North to fight "Jon's war" alongside him and that she will never let the North be independent. ding ding ding

- Aside from that, can we please discuss how beautiful Theon and Sansa's scenes were? 

I wish we got some Stark sibling scenes, but I guess it's a good sign. If they don't get a goodbye that's probably because they all survive the battle. 

Sansa was brilliant throughout this episode and I just loved her. Her fashion, her words, the way she carried herself. 

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52 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sorry, but I cant shake the fact that this girl trained with the best and is using Littlefinger's tactics to find out motives by "assuming the worst."

Worst idea is that Jon is a fool.

She finds out Dany is. 

It just... fits.

This. Yes, I feel this too. She found out this situation isn't the worst case scenario. She laughed, actually laughed when Dany said "Who manipulated whom?"

She was the stand-out character for me this episode. By far. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Ren said:

- Aside from that, can we please discuss how beautiful Theon and Sansa's scenes were? 

It was far more poignant than Jon/Arya. Ramsay's evil deeply connected those two and the scene at the battlements with the two of them... It was breathtakingly beautiful.

*****

As for Sansa and Dany...

We have always seen North as Scotland and in many aspects it is. And that freedom fight has cost Scotland many a son. As it happened with North. Dany wants obedience, but she needs to really know them. To fully understand the North and Northerners. Especially the recent history. Because North has a tragic history with last few Kings in King's Landing. Aerys almost destroyed Starks, then Joffrey killed Ned. That made people want to be left on their own and they named Robb a king. And here is a catch. Even Robb understood he can't reject that. They crowned him and the Rubicon has been passed. We always speak how public the Northern quorum is. Starks always had pretty much good idea of what their subjects think and how they feel. So, Sansa represents them, their struggle and all the pain that they have survived in the last years. And that is why Sansa became a true "Queen of Ice", a true Queen in the North.

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I loved her this episode. This is how Sansa should be. Whoever that was last episode (Dave Hill should not be allowed to write, ever), that was not good politics. I dread what comes the next 4 episodes since they are all written by D&D. But this Sansa I enjoyed.

I loved Sansa bringing out her inner Margery. Go along with the bonding and use that to find out Dany's motives. And as soon as she did, she went back to pragmatic mode and inquiring about the North's status after all the fighting is done. I especially loved the look of realization (with the slight head move) she had on her face when Dany took her hand off of Sansa's. That's all Sansa needed to know. If Arya had said in this episode that Sansa was the smartest person she knew, it would have gone over much better with the audience IMO. Because with how Sansa was written last week, that Arya comment didn't hold any water.

I also loved her scene with Theon. Sansa actually getting emotional and tearing up, didn't know she had that in her anymore.

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I usually don't like Sansa much in the last, idk, 3 seasons, but she was quite good last night. I liked how she changed her mind about Jaime because of Brienne. She usually doesn't take advices from anyone and keeps pushing her opinions at all costs, so this was a nice change. And it made her look good. Her reunion with Theon was better than any of the reunions in Ep01. The majority of the dialogue with Dany was imo cringeworthy but I liked that she still insisted on the North being independent when the war is over.

 

8 hours ago, hallam said:

Jon's parentage makes things easier for Danny in many ways. If Jon becomes king of the seven kingdoms, it is the North taking the other six, not the other way round. They have crowned him King in the North after all.

At the end of the day, Danny has two dragons which was the original basis of Targaryan power. Given the challenges of running seven kingdoms, it makes little difference whether Jon or Danny is king or queen in their own right and which is consort. They could even both rule like William and Mary did (and for the same reason).

This ^ would work if Dany was like Jon. Jon doesn't really want to rule, he doesn't really care about titles. But she isn't like him. The fact that Jon is a Targaeryen with better claim to the throne than she has makes it much harder for her. Dany doesn't want to share the crown. She doesn't want to be a consort. And she certainly doesn't want to give up the crown. She wants to be THE QUEEN. She dreamt about it her whole life. Until this point she had to fight her enemies who wanted to stole the crown from her. But now suddenly there's a guy who claims to be her brother's son and with a better claim than she has. If people acknowledge Jon as Rhaegar's son, her only chance to get the crown is by force.

8 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I noticed that Jon told Daenerys of his true parentage before telling Arya and Sansa, his remaining family (Bran of course, already knowing).  Isn't that a sign that Jon is more concerned with Daenerys and her feelings than he is about what his sister/cousins and the North might think?

It's obvious that Dany is the one that is the most affected by Jon's true parentage. For Sansa and Arya it wouldn't really make much difference, it's just that he is their cousin, not brother. I know that this makes Sansa's claim to the North much stronger than Jon's but it is still Jon who was elected KitN, so it doesn't really matter for the moment. I think that Jon said it to Dany first because he didn't want it to look like he knew about it the whole time and only used Dany to eventually steal her desired crown. And he didn't want Sam to say it to Dany, as he knew that he is mad at her (although it didn't seem like it anymore this episode). But it is true that if he said it to Arya and Sansa first, they might advice him to wait with it until the war is over to ensure Dany's help in the fight.

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