SPOILERS: Rant and Rave

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

? Um, Littlefinger has been making moves for years?  I don't even know what you are talking about with this.  

That he doesn't show his colors. That he doesn't raise an army and does anything that gives him real rather than informal power. Littlefinger basically just talked the entire time. He doesn't have any legitimate/real power in his own right. And this is comparable to Doran because like Doran he right now controls a vast reserve of fresh troops which are now much more powerful by comparison than they would have been had they been thrown into the fray back during the War of the Five Kings.

[gullyfoyle]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 12:00 AM, teej6 said:

 One minute Arya is chopping her enemies and baking them (which Arya does not do in the books btw) and the next episode she’s able to empathize with Lannister soldiers (hardly the trait of a psychopath). And the whole slicing Sansa’s face was not about Arya being a psycho but rather to create suspense and intrigue in the audience mind. I don’t think D&D’s intent was to ever project Arya as a psycho

Give GRRM some time to finish the books, there's still plenty of opportunity for Arya to bake her enemies into a pie, The Freys are going to pay for their transgressions.  I think GRRM would love the idea. After all he came up with the Rat Cook, and Arya knows that story well.

Don't think either book or show Arya is meant to be a psycho, just a stone cold killer. Of course some people would say that's the same thing...

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Frey Pies have already been done in the books, GRRM is not going to repeat himself.

[longest night]

12 minutes ago, gullyfoyle said:

Give GRRM some time to finish the books, there's still plenty of opportunity for Arya to bake her enemies into a pie, The Freys are going to pay for their transgressions.  I think GRRM would love the idea. After all he came up with the Rat Cook, and Arya knows that story well.

Don't think either book or show Arya is meant to be a psycho, just a stone cold killer. Of course some people would say that's the same thing...

The Freys have already been baked into a pie. They took the idea, and admitted to it, from the Northern conspiracy plot line. It's out of character for Arya to even consider such a thing. Screw the show writers for their character assassination of Arya.

[teej6]

11 minutes ago, gullyfoyle said:

Give GRRM some time to finish the books, there's still plenty of opportunity for Arya to bake her enemies into a pie, The Freys are going to pay for their transgressions.  I think GRRM would love the idea. After all he came up with the Rat Cook, and Arya knows that story well.

Don't think either book or show Arya is meant to be a psycho, just a stone cold killer. Of course some people would say that's the same thing...

GRRM already had someone do the Frey pies in the books, it’s just not Arya. I doubt he’s going to repeat himself. Besides there’s another character in the books (who they skipped in the show) who’s killing Freys. By the time Arya is back in Westeros, I suspect most of the Freys responsible for the Red Wedding will already be dead.

[teej6]

18 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Frey Pies have already been done in the books, GRRM is not going to repeat himself.

You beat me to it. 

[Ice Queen]

7 minutes ago, longest night said:

The Freys have already been baked into a pie. They took the idea, and admitted to it, from the Northern conspiracy plot line. It's out of character for Arya to even consider such a thing. Screw the show writers for their character assassination of Arya.

Character assassination? Arya has been walking the path to the dark side since the beginning. The Ghost of High Heart even calls her "dark heart". She is death anthropomorphized. 

Killing people with poison while wearing a false face or baking them into a pie...what's the difference? People are equally dead. Although I admit Lord Manderly's way was at least entertaining. The Freys had broken the sacred guest right, and there is no sin more unforgivable in the eyes of the gods.

[longest night]

1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

Character assassination? Arya has been walking the path to the dark side since the beginning. The Ghost of High Heart even calls her "dark heart". She is death anthropomorphized. 

Killing people with poison while wearing a false face or baking them into a pie...what's the difference? People are equally dead. Although I admit Lord Manderly's way was at least entertaining. The Freys had broken the sacred guest right, and there is no sin more unforgivable in the eyes of the gods.

Cooking someone into a pie takes a whole new level of sadism up there with Ramsay. What's the difference between that and poisoning someone? Imagine what she would have to do to go through with it.

[Nami]

34 minutes ago, gullyfoyle said:

Give GRRM some time to finish the books, there's still plenty of opportunity for Arya to bake her enemies into a pie, The Freys are going to pay for their transgressions.  I think GRRM would love the idea. After all he came up with the Rat Cook, and Arya knows that story well.

Don't think either book or show Arya is meant to be a psycho, just a stone cold killer. Of course some people would say that's the same thing...

In the show they want her to be a badass vindictive killer so people can go "whoaaaa what a badass!" whenever she does stuff like chopping her enemies and putting them into pies and feeding it to other humans...

In the books it seems GRRM is taking the route of her being deeply conflicted over not letting go of who she was and what she wants to become to able to do what she wants (vengeance). I doubt it will be as simple as "wow now she's an empowered badass". GRRM don't tend to be this simplistic and 2D with his characters. All his characters are more complex in the books and in this show everyone became a walking cliché or completely unrecognizable (Varys and Tyrion).

[teej6]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I honestly can't remember for sure, but I thought the show kept in the part of Brienne's vow to Cat that had the clause about Stannis - not getting in her way when it came time to bring justice to Stannis (or however that was worded).

But overall I agree that Book and Show Brienne are completely different aside from the size and vocation.

Show Brienne is a brute who seems always pissed off. She doesn’t come across as likable as her book counterpart. And she did sort of break her vow as in the show they showed her in KL the same time Sansa was there. One can make the argument that Sansa was Tyrion’s wife by then, but IIRC, she asks Jaime to save Sansa and keep his vow with Cat, but doesn’t do anything herself. She doesn’t even try and go and talk to Sansa, instead she goes and has a heart-to-heart with Margaery. 

[Ice Queen]

37 minutes ago, longest night said:

Cooking someone into a pie takes a whole new level of sadism up there with Ramsay. What's the difference between that and poisoning someone? Imagine what she would have to do to go through with it.

The gods sanctioned it. That's what the story of the Rat Cook was about. In the north, guest right is sacred and inviolate just as it was in northern Europe. Only kinslaying was considered as bad and was dealt with harshly. 

And Manderly didn't break guest right as he was not the Lord of Winterfell. He was re-enacting the Rat Cook and such an act would have been seen as justice. 

Arya is bent on revenge, not justice. She may be conflicted but that doesn't stop her from killing. The only reason she hasn't gone over completely is Nymeria. That is her link to her self.

[longest night]

10 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

The gods sanctioned it. That's what the story of the Rat Cook was about. In the north, guest right is sacred and inviolate just as it was in northern Europe. Only kinslaying was considered as bad and was dealt with harshly. 

And Manderly didn't break guest right as he was not the Lord of Winterfell. He was re-enacting the Rat Cook and such an act would have been seen as justice. 

Arya is bent on revenge, not justice. She may be conflicted but that doesn't stop her from killing. The only reason she hasn't gone over completely is Nymeria. That is her link to her self.

The gods don't sanction cooking someone into to a pie. The Rat Cook story is about what the gods do to someone that violates guest rights. The literal story is about how someone violates guest rights, kills a man's son, cooks him in a pie and feeds him to his father. The gods curse the man by turning him into a rat doomed to eat his own offspring. 

I found it sick and sadistic when Manderly did it, and I find it sick and sadistic when Arya did it. Also, guest rights go both ways. A person vows to not harm his guest, and the guest vows not to harm his host. It's a general peace agreement on both sides.

[Ice Queen]

1 minute ago, longest night said:

The gods don't sanction cooking someone into to a pie. The Rat Cook story is about what the gods do to someone that violates guest rights.

And Manderly didn't violate guest right. As I said, breaking guest right was an abomination to the gods as well as men. What Manderly did was justice as far as the northerners were concerned, and the gods (or anyone not named Frey) weren't the least bit upset about it.

Arya is death personified. How many 11 year olds in any time period have killed as many people as she has? And she does it with no regrets, not a twinge of conscience. I don't consider that to be badass at all, sorry. And it shouldn't be glorified. War sucks and people die in war, yes, but that's not what we're talking about here. Do you really think that if she survives she's going back to a normal life? She's not. She was a child who had no control over what was happening. She is clearly traumatized and her sense of self and love for her family won't be enough to save her. Her psyche is irrevocably damaged.

That being said, she's not a psychopath. She clearly loves her family and her friends (Gendry and Hot Pie). She is sadistic, though. She takes satisfaction not just in watching them die, but in the pain she is causing. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I honestly can't remember for sure, but I thought the show kept in the part of Brienne's vow to Cat that had the clause about Stannis - not getting in her way when it came time to bring justice to Stannis (or however that was worded).

But overall I agree that Book and Show Brienne are completely different aside from the size and vocation.

I don’t remember either, but I believe they kept it. But it doesn’t really change anything (for me). If book Brienne has Sansa in her sight, and a defeated and wounded Stannis sitting near a tree (?), she’s never ever in a million years going to leave her watch to go seek revenge on a defeated man... Brienne is the truest knight in the story, same as her acenestor Dunk. And same as great-grandpa (?) Dunk, not actually a knight. It’s beautiful, and the show mucked it up. As usual...

 

[Nami]

Did the rules change or what? I thought this thread was for us to rant and rave not debate with people who disagree with our rant? at least it has been this way for years

 

By the way,

 

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t remember either, but I believe they kept it. But it doesn’t really change anything (for me). If book Brienne has Sansa in her sight, and a defeated and wounded Stannis sitting near a tree (?), she’s never ever in a million years going to leave her watch to go seek revenge on a defeated man... Brienne is the truest knight in the story, same as her acenestor Dunk. And same as great-grandpa (?) Dunk, not actually a knight. It’s beautiful, and the show mucked it up. As usual...

 

Other than her breaking her vow, I had big problem with that scene because Judge Dredd of Tarth tried to call that justice.

It might have been understandable revenge, but when she tried to act like that was justice, I had a problem with that. And that's why I call her Judge Dredd.

At minimum, I'm not sure why that character, who isn't Brienne really, would think they could go into the North like that and do a summary execution, without at least consulting of with Sandra about it, who was the head of House Stark. At least if she wanted to do justice.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, longest night said:

Cooking someone into a pie takes a whole new level of sadism up there with Ramsay. What's the difference between that and poisoning someone? Imagine what she would have to do to go through with it.

Erhm... no, it doesn’t. To bake someone into a pie - and no, I’m not writing up a recipe! - you have to kill them first. So, you kill them, then chop them up (or mince them?), then have your cook make a pie. That’s cold, unforgiving revenge. Revenge for the RW. And well deserved, too. I call it a fist-pumping moment, like Dany incinerating the slaver who wanted Drogon, and Jon shortening Janos Slynt by a head. 

Ramsay though... that’s a completely different thing. And for the record, I know seeking revenge is wrong, and it only feeds into the cycle of violence, etc etc etc. But in-universe... it’s  a fact of life. And again, what Ramsay does - and especially on the show - is altogether different. Ramsay is a psycho, a sadist, and the cherry on top, he’s not the sharpest tool in the box. 

But imo there’s no way to even think about comparing Frey pies w/ Kyra, Jeyne, and all the countless victims of Ramsay’s “game”. 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Other than her breaking her vow, I had big problem with that scene because Judge Dredd of Tarth tried to call that justice.

It might have been understandable revenge, but when she tried to act like that was justice, I had a problem with that. And that's why I call her Judge Dredd.

At minimum, I'm not sure why that character, who isn't Brienne really, would think they could go into the North like that and do a summary execution, without at least consulting of with Sandra about it, who was the head of House Stark. At least if she wanted to do justice.

Damn it, I had forgot that. Deliberately? Because it’s too painful to see what the show’s turned Brienne Judge Dredd of Tarth into?

[joaozinm]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Erhm... no, it doesn’t. To bake someone into a pie - and no, I’m not writing up a recipe! - you have to kill them first. So, you kill them, then chop them up (or mince them?), then have your cook make a pie. That’s cold, unforgiving revenge. Revenge for the RW. And well deserved, too. I call it a fist-pumping moment, like Dany incinerating the slaver who wanted Drogon, and Jon shortening Janos Slynt by a head. 

Ramsay though... that’s a completely different thing. And for the record, I know seeking revenge is wrong, and it only feeds into the cycle of violence, etc etc etc. But in-universe... it’s  a fact of life. And again, what Ramsay does - and especially on the show - is altogether different. Ramsay is a psycho, a sadist, and the cherry on top, he’s not the sharpest tool in the box. 

But imo there’s no way to even think about comparing Frey pies w/ Kyra, Jeyne, and all the countless victims of Ramsay’s “game”. 

Dude, she kills the person, grabs the dead body and take to the kitchen, chooses what parts to chop while the human body is there bleeding dry, you follow some kind of recipe using the human parts you have, cook it and smell the human flesh flavor as it gets ready, put it into a pie, serve it to someone, watch him eat the human body pie with a creepy look then she killed the "customer" too.

 

She cooked the pie herself as we know she asked how to do it with Hot Pie.

Things we don't know: did she taste it? did she used the brain? dick? heart?

 

But yeah... thats pretty Ramsey level.

 

Motivation is irrelevant.

[darmody]

On 4/21/2019 at 11:00 PM, teej6 said:

D&D characters all have multiple personality disorder. One minute Arya is chopping her enemies and baking them (which Arya does not do in the books btw) and the next episode she’s able to empathize with Lannister soldiers (hardly the trait of a psychopath). And the whole slicing Sansa’s face was not about Arya being a psycho but rather to create suspense and intrigue in the audience mind. I don’t think D&D’s intent was to ever project Arya as a psycho just like it’s was not their intent to show Sansa as a backstabbing, conniving, power grabbing person but rather “the smartest person” around. Their sloppiness and inconsistency from season to season and their non-existent writing skills does not make Arya a psycho. And in the books btw she definitely is not a psychopath. And again the line you reference has nothing to do with her ability to like/desire men. 

The acting certainly makes her look like a psycho. I swear she might have shown her "o" face when she slit Walder Frey's throat. And she's always smirking at everyone like she's gonna eat their livers. 

She's able to empathize with Lannister soldiers, huh? By which you mean she sat next to them for a while without killing them. You know psychos don't have to kill literally everyone they meet, right?

Suspense and intrigue? The show built that between Arya and Sansa in season One with foodfights and lies about sword practice. I think we could find a way with human adult characters that don't involve assuming a person's identity by cutting off their face. Even Faceless Men probably don't tell people that's what they're going to do when they do it.