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SPOILERS: Rant and Rave


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6 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

She send a message to Sansa that the candle would be her signal, if she wasn't going to watch for it then don't send the message.  

And we haven't even addressed how she got to KL and proceed to do nothing about freeing Sansa.

It's not like she abandoned her post. I mean, do you imagine Brienne spent months of however long it was never sleeping? Anyway, she saved Sansa shortly thereafter. 

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35 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

If everybody has been training to protect and fight for Winterfell, what exactly has Sansa been doing with this time.  Not much of a leader, more of a mid-level manager. 

Sansa’s been learning how to fit soldiers with the right armor and take stock of the supplies. Oh yes, and she’s been picking public fights with Jon and Dany and strutting around WF with Royce in tow. And the most important part is that offscreen she became the smartest person there is.

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13 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Not arguing with you here. In fact, exactly the point I was making. The fight and tension between the sisters in Season 1 was natural and organic, although I wouldn’t characterize it as suspenseful. The tension and fight in the last season between Arya and Sansa was anything but  natural or believable. It made no sense and was purely to create artificial suspense and tension without any regard for logical storytelling or character  progression.

Well, there was more tension between Ned and Cersei (brilliantly, considering there's is the central conflict of the season) than Arya and Sansa, admittedly. But getting a boy killed and losing your dog are big deals to kids.

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16 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

The Jon resurrection scene is one of the primary reasons I gave up on the show, it was so rediculous that Davos would even believe such a thing possible, nevermind he would ask Melisandre, someone he hates, to do it, for someone he barely knows, was the last straw for me, after the Dorne foolishness, the Sansa/Ramsay marriage, the 20 good men, the Stannis burning his daughter one hour away from Winterfell, I was mostly done, but wanted to give season 6 a chance, after that scene the show was dead to me.

I hated the fake death more than the resurrection.

There are two reasons Davos had to ask the Red Witch: one, he kinda liked Jon; and two, he saw her give birth to the shadowbaby and knew she was capable of spooky things.

It would have made more sense if Davos also knew about Thoros and Berric, but whattya-whattya. The whole thing stunk. 

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5 hours ago, Ice Queen said:

 

Killing people with poison while wearing a false face or baking them into a pie...what's the difference? People are equally dead. Although I admit Lord Manderly's way was at least entertaining. The Freys had broken the sacred guest right, and there is no sin more unforgivable in the eyes of the gods.

Unless you're making a piece of art, the difference is that the pies will be fed to someone. In this case, to a relative of the slain. So two murders plus forced incestuous cannibalism. That's worse than poisoning. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon and Davos don't have a properly established relationship of any kind. They had nothing in common, nothing to do with each other, not even a reason to like or interact with each other a lot.

The very fact that FUCKING DAVOS suggested that Melisandre should try TO FUCKING RESURRECT Jon for no reason aside from it apparently being stuff Cunningham had to read from the script shows how fucked up this is.

Or am I mistaken there? Is there some great Davos-Jon bonding scene I forgot? All I recall right now are Davos suddenly being in the thick of things and interacting with people he neither cares no gives a damn.

I thought the Ice Zombie thing made Mel's visions to be seen correct for Davos. And since Stannis fall there should be another "false hero" to follow. Jon's resurrection makes him very powerful "hero" figure for fight against WW.

And for people loyal to Stannis there was no way to make alliance with Lannisters (Cersei) and Targaryens (Daenerys, no (f)Aegon) and Stannis never fought against Starks.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon and Davos don't have a properly established relationship of any kind. They had nothing in common, nothing to do with each other, not even a reason to like or interact with each other a lot.

The very fact that FUCKING DAVOS suggested that Melisandre should try TO FUCKING RESURRECT Jon for no reason aside from it apparently being stuff Cunningham had to read from the script shows how fucked up this is.

Or am I mistaken there? Is there some great Davos-Jon bonding scene I forgot? All I recall right now are Davos suddenly being in the thick of things and interacting with people he neither cares no gives a damn.

It's like why would Davos even think to ask Mel if she could resurrect anyone, let alone do it? It was so out of character for Davos. The show has just jumped too many sharks to be considered anything but cheesy fan fiction on a level you find on some random internet website.

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5 hours ago, darmody said:

I assume that story is based on the Tantalus myth. He chopped up his own son and fed him to the gods who came to dine at his house. For that crime he was sent to hell to suffer and cursed his bloodline for eternity. 

It's inspired by Tantalus/Pelops but with a twist. Tantalus kills his son, in the Rat Cook's tale, however, it is the guest's son (and also obviously a guest) who is killed and served to his father. Bran stresses that the biggest sin and what the (old) gods just cannot abide is the breaking of guest rights. It's setting the context for us to really appreciate how bad the RW really was from the point of view of northerners. Which is not to say that southerners who keep the faith of the seven are ok with it, as this obviously is against any code of chivalry as well, but Tywin attempts some moral relativism - isn't it better to kill a few at dinner than many on a battlefield?

Now in the books, Manderley is punctilious about observing guest rights. He escorts his Frey guests some way outside of WH and gives them parting gifts - clearly explained as the termination of the host-guest relationship. It then appears that he had them hunted down and killed. Revenge for the RW, I don't anyone reading has any beef with it. What he did next with the dead Freys is again not a breach of guest rights at WF per se, but obviously, let's just say, very dubious :bawl:

GRRM likely included the Frey pies in the story (and it's only alluded to really) to show how deeply affected Manderley was by the death of his son. I think he is past caring what happens to himself now (now his other son has been released) and how deep his hatred of the Freys is, a sentiment likely shared by most of the North.

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10 hours ago, Nami said:

In the show they want her to be a badass vindictive killer so people can go "whoaaaa what a badass!" whenever she does stuff like chopping her enemies and putting them into pies and feeding it to other humans...


In the books it seems GRRM is taking the route of her being deeply conflicted over not letting go of who she was and what she wants to become to able to do what she wants (vengeance). I doubt it will be as simple as "wow now she's an empowered badass". GRRM don't tend to be this simplistic and 2D with his characters. All his characters are more complex in the books and in this show everyone became a walking cliché or completely unrecognizable (Varys and Tyrion).

To me, he's also exploring the terrible psychological effects of witnessing violent events (the beheading of Ned, etc.) and of killing itself on child soldiers. I'm still hopeful Book Arya can come back from the brink.  Show Arya is just a clichéd annoyance now.

 

6 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Littlefinger killed her aunt. Arya killed Littlefinger.  If everybody has been training to protect and fight for Winterfell, what exactly has Sansa been doing with this time.  Not much of a leader, more of a mid-level manager. 

Mid-Level Manager Sandra Bolton.

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56 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

To me, he's also exploring the terrible psychological effects of witnessing violent events (the beheading of Ned, etc.) and of killing itself on child soldiers. I'm still hopeful Book Arya can come back from the brink.  Show Arya is just a clichéd annoyance now.

Indeed.

Quote

Mid-Level Manager Sandra Bolton.

Perfect. :lol:

Nymeria was smart, she stays away. Ghost checks in from time to time to see if the real characters are back, and nope, so he goes away again.

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Regarding the entire "Sansa-never-killed-anyone"-discussion that's currently raging, I always thought this was simply yet another thing she has in common with Cersei (who she does seem to, almost idolize in the weirdest way.)

Granted, Cersei is on a whole different level, but both of them are pretty much involved in murder, but without ever holding the gun themselves.

I'm not shedding a single tear for Ramsay (Iwan Rheon's acting was superb however), but beating him to a pulp, tying him up and having his own dogs devour him is, technically, murder - and I'm 100% sure the dogs was Sansas idea and not Jon's. 

 

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

 

Nymeria was smart, she stays away. Ghost checks in from time to time to see if the real characters are back, and nope, so he goes away again.

Ghost has run off to be with Nymeria.  Small white husky in the last ep was Sam's dog Nipper. :commie:

Can I also point out how they had Tormund run excitedly at Jon, just like a dog would.  Tormund is Jon's pet now. 

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10 hours ago, teej6 said:

Sansa’s been learning how to fit soldiers with the right armor and take stock of the supplies. Oh yes, and she’s been picking public fights with Jon and Dany and strutting around WF with Royce in tow. And the most important part is that offscreen she became the smartest person there is.

In one of the many. many spoilers I read, she hides in a closet during the battle.  I have no idea if that is true, but I do find it funny.

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11 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Yeah, but Arya ruined it by giving the secret of the pie away to Lord Walder before he even took a bite. She could have just served him their heads instead.

LOL  Great point!!  That script was so ridiculous.  Arya just about jumping up and down to say;  Hey, look, they're in the pie, honest they are, I know it makes no sense that I'm serving up Manderly's Frey Pies, but LOOK, FREY PIE, FREY PIE!!  Get it?  Get it?  You get it now, right?? 

Hmmm, maybe this is one of those episodes we need a look at for all those 'meaningful' script notes.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon and Davos don't have a properly established relationship of any kind. They had nothing in common, nothing to do with each other, not even a reason to like or interact with each other a lot.

The very fact that FUCKING DAVOS suggested that Melisandre should try TO FUCKING RESURRECT Jon for no reason aside from it apparently being stuff Cunningham had to read from the script shows how fucked up this is.

Or am I mistaken there? Is there some great Davos-Jon bonding scene I forgot? All I recall right now are Davos suddenly being in the thick of things and interacting with people he neither cares no gives a damn.

“We really like the actor Liam Cunningham”.

We didn’t realize this at first: we were overthinking it.

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3 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Regarding the entire "Sansa-never-killed-anyone"-discussion that's currently raging, I always thought this was simply yet another thing she has in common with Cersei (who she does seem to, almost idolize in the weirdest way.)

Granted, Cersei is on a whole different level, but both of them are pretty much involved in murder, but without ever holding the gun themselves.

I'm not shedding a single tear for Ramsay (Iwan Rheon's acting was superb however), but beating him to a pulp, tying him up and having his own dogs devour him is, technically, murder - and I'm 100% sure the dogs was Sansas idea and not Jon's. 

 

I agree with most of what you're saying here, including not shedding a tear for Ramsay.  Regardless of Iwan's acting, I had had it with ShowRams and was glad to see him go.  I cannot imagine any of what happened in the kennels was Jon's idea, but can you picture all it took to make those few minutes of Sansa Smirking Badassery possible?  Someone would have had to scrape him off the ground from where Jon was beating him to a pulp, pick him up, somehow tie him to a chair, and get him into the dog kennels without getting attacked themselves.  Sansa certainly wasn't doing all that.  The show is never short on.......things that happened off screen to explain a few seconds of badassery. 

3 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

Ghost has run off to be with Nymeria.  Small white husky in the last ep was Sam's dog Nipper. :commie:

Can I also point out how they had Tormund run excitedly at Jon, just like a dog would.  Tormund is Jon's pet now. 

Hahahaha, I SWEAR Ghost looks smaller ever time I see a pic or gif of this most recent scene. 

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22 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I agree with most of what you're saying here, including not shedding a tear for Ramsay.  Regardless of Iwan's acting, I had had it with ShowRams and was glad to see him go.  I cannot imagine any of what happened in the kennels was Jon's idea, but can you picture all it took to make those few minutes of Sansa Smirking Badassery possible?  Someone would have had to scrape him off the ground from where Jon was beating him to a pulp, pick him up, somehow tie him to a chair, and get him into the dog kennels without getting attacked themselves.  Sansa certainly wasn't doing all that.  The show is never short on.......things that happened off screen to explain a few seconds of badassery.

Exactly... plus, this is all part of the season 5 mess, which isn't her own story.

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15 hours ago, darmody said:

Season Five was in many ways too boring for me to remember, but Davos spent most of it with Jon at castle black. He watched Jon shoot Mance against Stannis' wishes, then helped convince him to invite the Wildlings in. I specifically recall Davos trying to convince Jon to accept Stannis' offer to legitimize him, because Stannis saw something inside Jon. Something I assume Davos saw also. 

So there's that. 

Yeah, sure, but for half the season Stannis still was at Castle Black, no? And Davos was Stannis' guy the entire time.

The way to set up a friendship or a close connection, etc. is to set it up. You don't just show people having something in common which had previously barely interacted. That's just utterly crappy writing - not just on the inside, on the emotional level but also on the outside, basic exposition. I mean, we don't even know why Davos gives a damn about anything after Stannis is dead. Why doesn't he just go home. He is no Northman. He doesn't owe these people anything, etc.

 

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