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Not sure if they're going for a "Lyanna needs to die so Jorah can take over House Mormont"-angle. Would explain their scene together.

Regardless, even if their scene together could've been better, I'm glad we at least got a scene of them together. 

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13 minutes ago, athmystikal said:

Jon's death and resurrection played no part in the plot. He still acts the same and everyone around him behaves the same. Nobody is even wondering how he is still alive. Its almost like he went into a comma and came back

Yeah, the way they handled Jon’s resurrection was awful, start to finish. 

From Ollie’s final stab after glaring and evil eyeing Jon for countless episodes, to his body being left in the yard for a couple of days or something? Then Davos guarding his body because? He had to, so that Mel could resurrect Jon later? :lol:

Then the actual resurrection, one of the most underwhelming scenes ever. 

And if all of that isn’t enough, there’s what happened afterwards: NOTHING. 

What the fuck?

Last episode there was this convo between Arya and Jon:

A: how did you survive being stabbed in the heart?

J: I didn’t. 

*the end*

Seriously, what the actual fuck is that? 

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

The problem is that the characters seem to not have nothing to do or feel empty. So people usualy think that it is because more plots from the books weren t adapted...

Honestly, I think faegon should have been adapted. He should be a blackfyre from the beguining in order to not make things repetetive and get the support from the faith and the Southern kingdoms because they hate cersei… Cersei has outlived and logic that there might be for her to be a figure with power.

Euron should have gone to danny in order to steal at least 1 of her dragons (preferibly 2) and then die so that the dragons are free to go to jon and faegon for exemple. At least this way we could have a belivable 3 way power strugle for westeros. Because no one would fight a huge army with dragons suporting it… People know what Aegon did...

But most of all I think the problem is that D&D are dumb. They can t create an original story that links events in the show. We saw how awfull winterfel was last season after jon left… there simply wasn t any story there…

And while I agree with you that the show needs more of these eps in order to make the characters more real. I think this ep focus was completly wrong. Arya checking gendry out was simply weird, not having emotional conversations between the starks was weird, not having lyanna disgusted with jorah was weird, jon was super weird (for reasons I have written several times)...

Well, it is very unlikely that almost all the characters in the show at WF will actually be at WF together.  This could possibly be why Tyrion and Varys have become blah, they aren't supposed to be there, they are somewhere else, somewhere South.  Its also questionable that Brienne and Jamie will go all the way North to WF, they will have their story together, but probably in the riverlands.  Even Dany, I can't imagine in the books, anyone would be stupid enough to march a Southern, warm weather army ALL the way, up North, through the neck, past two islands where the dead can't go....and decamp at Winterfell, this will not happen. 

So, it is already awkward that a lot of people are at WF when in the book story, they will be elsewhere, and this makes the showrunners lack of plot writing ability stand out even more. 

 

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2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Reminds me of season 5. And that is something I'd like to forget about.

We'd all like to forget about Season 5.
And Season 6.
And Season 7.

But yeah, especially about Season 5.

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6 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

 

- Jon saying the truth about his parents in a tone that screams "I knew this all along"

You know how they've handled Jon dealing with this shocking news about his parentage. He said to Dany "It's true, Dany. I know it is". What? Jon always acted like a complete Stark. How does he know it's true?

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11 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Yep. And what are the odds she ends up killing a wight or two? I have a feeling that is coming. Just to solidify the bad-ass child shtick even more. And fanboys the world over will be creaming themselves at how "bad ass" she is.

Very high, I think. And then she’s killed, wightified, and someone has to kill her for real. It’s gonna be soooooooo sad! Not. 

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Not all rants, but I don't feel like splitting up my thoughts. 

NCW and Gwen :bowdown:

Jenny of Oldstones which was about heir Duncan Targaryen who gave up his throne for love. Duncan was named for Dunk and it’s believed (confirmed?) that Brienne is Dunk’s descendant. Brienne was named Knight of the Seven Kingdoms which is the name of the Dunk book. Cersei offered Jaime the throne so they could rule together but Jaime turned it down for love of Brienne. The things he does for love. 

I don't really have a problem with Arya as a character growing up and not wanting to die a virgin. It's a pretty typical teenager thing, but Maisie looks 12 without makeup and they've done nothing to age her up so that was jarring. I can see a lot of casual viewers unaware that Arya’s only a few years younger than Sansa having trouble with that one. Should be some uncomfortable water cooler talks among the Unsullied. Arya being jealous was kinda cute but it had the feel of a bucket list check off when it could have been a very humanizing moment. Unless that's the point? Feels like a big missed opportunity and the last shot shows Arya’s ...lost? I don’t know how to read that. And what was up with her scars being all wrong? Those aren't even stab wounds and they're in the wrong place. 

I was ok with Missyworm. I think about the Dothraki and Unsullied facing dying in this weird, cold place. They really didn’t sign up for that. Wonder if others are having doubts. I would.

Not having a more prominent Dothraki character bugs me. They have the myth about the ghost grass taking over the world, Bran's vision in AGOT saw the Vaes Dothrak, and TWOIAF seem to point to the Dothraki being tied into all of this somehow. But they're just cannon fodder, I guess.  

Jorah’s able to talk Dany down. If he dies...Speaking of, Dany making up with Sansa looked to be only for the benefit of Jorah and utterly insincere. I'm not seeing it the way a lot are seeing that. I like that it's less Mean Girls/catty and more old-style GoT in regards to intent at least, but they didn't make up at all. When Sansa said Dany should have never trusted Cersei either, Dany visibly swallows her response down and plasters over it with a fake smile. Dany then launches into flattery and ugh, girl talk to try to get Sansa on her side. Red flags. Dany also didn't miss this: Sansa started agreeing with Dany, but her mind was changed by Brienne. Dany tried to get Jon to override Sansa, but he has his own opinion which means Dany had to agree to save face. 

Theon/Sansa. I like these two. I get her wanting someone whom she cares about to stick around that she also won’t have to sleep with (cause she's so not in that place). Jon was that safe place, but now he's tied up with Dany. The Theon hug resembled the Jon hug when they first reunited. Dany didn't react well here realizing that Theon chose to fight for Sansa and Winterfell over fighting Dany's cause with Yara in gaining back the Iron Islands. 

Jaime says he came back to Winterfell and asks to serve Brienne “If you’ll have me”. Theon, also not the man he used to be, says the same. Both used to be whole not-so-good men. Both are now damaged good men. Kinda sound like marriage proposals.

Healthy relationships: Jaime/Brienne and Missendei/Greyworm are considerate of each other’s feelings and they’re talking and working things out. Theon and Sansa are also about support and understanding. Arya is...trying for something and not getting there? Not sure. I feel like that’s what she wants. Anyhow, Gendry thinks Arya is pretty awesome and he doesn't want to change her. Jon/Dany look really bad in comparison. Jon tells Dany his world has been turned upside down and is super emotional, and she makes it about herself and the IT. 

At the end, Jon/Dany’s look and leaving made me think off to the batcave dragons.

How does Dany not know what Bran’s deal is after he told her about Viseryon? She just thinks Bran’s throwing out random things like “the things I do for love” from the corner like he’s just mentally ill or something?

Starks are all about keeping secrets from each other these days.

Jon decides to tell Dany about RLJ right before the big fight where there’s a great opportunity for the Game to get in the way. Great idea, Jon.

Didn’t even bother making Ghost the proper size. And he’s stuck into the scene in a totally rando way like it’s supposed to be where’s Waldo?

When Bran says he’s only almost a man, I took that as a reference to his paralysis and his not being happy about it. Then he’s waiting for “old friend” Jaime. That’s followed by Bran tossing out “the things I do for love” and telling Jaime something like who said there’s anything after this. Yeah, sure Bran. You’re not upset. He’s also about not having time for the Game, but is heavily invested in Team Jon over Team Dany. More complex than he looks. Isaac's standing out to me this year. 

I didn't really notice the lack of strategy against the WW until the show pointed out how stupid they were in the war room scene. Tyrion has no Battle of Blackwater ideas. No strategic placement of oil in the field that the dragons can light. Sam's been studying all this time and has nothing at all? Bran's got nothing? I know Westeros has stagnated for thousands of years and innovation isn't their thing, but after TWD, the viewers have a few expectations, especially when you remember Blackwater and outright point out how smart Tyrion is in that scene. 

On Jon/Dany marrying, it's not the simple fix everyone makes out. The IT only seats one and Westeros is a patriarchy with Jon having the better claim. He now has a dragon so she lost that advantage. Jon knows Westeros and wins over loyalty which are more knocks against her. Dany would be relegated to Jon's armpiece which is clearly not what she's going for. 

I really like how the first two episodes are character centric and I've really enjoyed the performances but how the hell do you wrap up this series in any solid way with only 4 episodes left?  

I’m not expecting the books to be finished and I’m ok with that, but the course of the series thus far is making me even more ok with that especially as they keep comparing the endings.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very high, I think. And then she’s killed, wightified, and someone has to kill her for real. It’s gonna be soooooooo sad! Not. 

Are we takin' about Ollie Mormont?

Edited by OldGimletEye

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

Well, it is very unlikely that almost all the characters in the show at WF will actually be at WF together.  This could possibly be why Tyrion and Varys have become blah, they aren't supposed to be there, they are somewhere else, somewhere South.  Its also questionable that Brienne and Jamie will go all the way North to WF, they will have their story together, but probably in the riverlands.  Even Dany, I can't imagine in the books, anyone would be stupid enough to march a Southern, warm weather army ALL the way, up North, through the neck, past two islands where the dead can't go....and decamp at Winterfell, this will not happen. 

So, it is already awkward that a lot of people are at WF when in the book story, they will be elsewhere, and this makes the showrunners lack of plot writing ability stand out even more. 

 

I think it will depend if in the books the army of the dead always moves like a wave or if it separates in diferent portions.

If they are all together it makes sense to defend winterfell in order to not lose all the northerns. If they can separate then the battle must happen in the neck because it is the only chokepoint besides the Wall. The islands don t matter that much because they must stop the dead before they kill enough people to be unstopable. And that is why the neck is a crucial place...

But yeah, characters like tyrion, davos and varys could have gone south in order to weaken cersei. Or to essos to get sellswords. Or on any mission that would strenghten jon and danny. They staying there for the battle doesn t help much… And once again the problem lies with D&D capability to write...

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13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, the way they handled Jon’s resurrection was awful, start to finish. 

From Ollie’s final stab after glaring and evil eyeing Jon for countless episodes, to his body being left in the yard for a couple of days or something? Then Davos guarding his body because? He had to, so that Mel could resurrect Jon later? :lol:

Then the actual resurrection, one of the most underwhelming scenes ever. 

And if all of that isn’t enough, there’s what happened afterwards: NOTHING. 

What the fuck?

Last episode there was this convo between Arya and Jon:

A: how did you survive being stabbed in the heart?

J: I didn’t. 

*the end*

Seriously, what the actual fuck is that? 

And how the northern lords just acepted he left the NW and the ww are real?

I mean, seriously!? 

And even if the show didn t want to make jon a warg, why not make bran or the old 3ec shove jon's conscience into ghost as he dies and then send something (crow/whisper/vision) to mel saying that she can save jon? At least we could have a mixture of Ice and fire and a reason about why he is diferent from beric...

 

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14 minutes ago, Nami said:

You know how they've handled Jon dealing with this shocking news about his parentage. He said to Dany "It's true, Dany. I know it is". What? Jon always acted like a complete Stark. How does he know it's true?

 

Do you think him knowing might be less about him having a hunch, but more about the point Sam made in regards to Ned? How Sam pointed out that what Ned did proves that he was an honourable man. That Ned never cheated on Catelyn, but would rather suffer the consequences and lie about Jons true heritage to keep him safe?

I mean in all fairness, I could be giving the writers too much credit. When in fact they were going for "Dany, I just like... know its true man. I can feel it, y'know?"

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Just now, A Dance with Davos said:

 

Do you think him knowing might be less about him having a hunch, but more about the point Sam made in regards to Ned? How Sam pointed out that what Ned did proves that he was an honourable man. That Ned never cheated on Catelyn, but would rather suffer the consequences and lie about Jons true heritage to keep him safe?

I mean in all fairness, I could be giving the writers too much credit. When in fact they were going for "Dany, I just like... know its true man. I can feel it, y'know?"

honestly, why not say

" danny, I know them. They wouldn t lie about this to me"

Isn t it much better?

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Also I'm pretty sure someone said this before me but... Shouldn't Dany have realized Jon had Targaryen blood once a Dragon allowed him to fricking ride on it's back?
She wasn't even suspicious or thought it was weird in the slightest! She was just like "Oh yeah, Rhaegon(?) allows my new boytoy to ride on him, I'm cool with that :D
That neither fits the show's established world building nor Dany's character really...

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

honestly, why not say

" danny, I know them. They wouldn t lie about this to me"

Isn t it much better?

I'd rather him say something along the lines of how he has many, many questions....and then, rattle off a few, like why Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't tell anyone they were married, why his father didn't tell him before he joined the NW, and so on...but those questions have to wait until after the coming battle.  At least that is an acknowledgement that there is much unresolved and unknown here.  Instead of handwaving it away with some couple of lines that 'he knows its true'. 

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

I'd rather him say something along the lines of how he has many, many questions....and then, rattle off a few, like why Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't tell anyone they were married, why his father didn't tell him before he joined the NW, and so on...but those questions have to wait until after the coming battle.  At least that is an acknowledgement that there is much unresolved and unknown here.  Instead of handwaving it away with some couple of lines that 'he knows its true'. 

You think they will adress this again? Like are you really sure?

I felt like now only who has a better claim to the IT matters and maybe the fact that jon can continue the targ line…

It would be really weird to hear jon talking about this completly changed his world in ep 4 or 5...

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Just now, divica said:

You think they will adress this again? Like are you really sure?

I felt like now only who has a better claim to the IT matters and maybe the fact that jon can continue the targ line…

It would be really weird to hear jon talking about this completly changed his world in ep 4 or 5...

I do feel like the show should answer the question of why Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage was a secret, since it is the thing that started the rebellion.  They probably won't answer it, but they should.  But, as a comment on that particular scene, it didn't seem very authentic to human behavior, so even if they never answered the questions he would have on screen again, at least, get them out there so his reaction is believable.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

I do feel like the show should answer the question of why Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage was a secret, since it is the thing that started the rebellion.  They probably won't answer it, but they should.  But, as a comment on that particular scene, it didn't seem very authentic to human behavior, so even if they never answered the questions he would have on screen again, at least, get them out there so his reaction is believable. 

Hope you are right. That it didn t happen this ep because D&D thought it would be interesting to have this drama instead of having the characters behaving like normal people...

Certainly would help fill the time in the later eps if they defeat the NK in ep 3...

Because even though most people think the ww can t be beaten so early I have no idea how they would be able to defeat them later if they lose most of the army and the north while the ww continue their invasion and increasing their numebers.

Hell, if they flee with as much northerns as they can I don t even know if jon and danny shouldn t take all the people they were able to save and leave westeros to cersei and the ww… 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I do feel like the show should answer the question of why Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage was a secret, since it is the thing that started the rebellion.  They probably won't answer it, but they should.  But, as a comment on that particular scene, it didn't seem very authentic to human behavior, so even if they never answered the questions he would have on screen again, at least, get them out there so his reaction is believable.

GRRM's last ASOIAF book was in 2011. I would've been perfectly happy if it had been announced then that he'd put off writing the rest of the book series for a while and instead pen most episodes of the show. D&D would then have only focussed on bringing his words to life. Because it is obvious they are afraid of tackling every pivotal scene which is not a battle. So Jon had a very interesting conversation with Bran about Rhaeghar and Lyanna, probably including Robert's Rebellion, and in light of new information the Starks' take on it now; but it happened offscreen. And the idea that Dany would voice her thoughts on legitimacy immediately after hearing the truth, it boggles the mind. And guess what, after opening that can of worms, that conversation too had to be cut short.

Edited by Gogossos

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Ok this obviously had its problems but I thought it was the best one since the spoils of war bit obviously not at the quality the show used to be. A lot of good but plenty of bad sadly...

 

It's bad enough Jon believed Sam so easily last week but to believing it 100% and actually telling Dany minutes before the battle is unbelievably stupid. Jon has always been too honest but this was way too bad. If Dany had abandoned the North at that moment and just flown back to Essos, Jon would have lost the war and everyone would die because of him.

Everyone loves Tyrion. I felt for Jorah who would be a far better hand and certainly deserves it more. Tyrion ain't season 2 Tyrion any more.

And I guess Ghost had cubs off screen. That blink and you miss it wolf was not Ghost dammit. Ah well at least he was there after way too long.

I guess the traitorous Glovers are all dead then. But what about the other Northern houses like the Karstarks and Cerwyns.

And making Theon defend Bran makes sense if the attack is coming from above as Theon is probably the best archer they have but will there be more people there. Like to use swords? Good on Jaime for using the words If it is true about the death of the Night's King killing his whole army. A bit of scepticism at last. Same for how Not the mad queen reacted to Jon's news. But he is right. The Night's King will not make himself an easy target if his death kills his army.

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Just now, Gogossos said:

GRRM's last ASOIAF book was in 2011. I would've been perfectly happy if it had been announced then that he'd put off writing the rest of the book series for a while and instead pen most episodes of the show. D&D would then have only focussed on bringing his words to life. Because it is obvious they are afraid of tackling every pivotal scene which is not a battle. So Jon had a very interesting conversation with Jon about Rhaeghar and Lyanna, probably including Robert's Rebellion, and in light of new information the Starks' take on it now; but it happened offscreen. And the idea that Dany would voice her thoughts on legitimacy immediately after hearing the truth, it boggles the mind. And guess what, after opening that can of worms, that conversation too had to be cut short.

LOL

I agree with what you are saying. However I doubt grrm could write the story for the show in a timelly manner. If he could do it he probably would just write the book.

However they should have hired someone to help write the show. After season 5 everybody should have realized that D&D don t have the creativity to make a good tv show without the books...

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