SPOILERS: Rant and Rave

[420faceless]

I nearly chundered reading these comments

[hewman]

On 4/22/2019 at 1:37 AM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I was right, as much as I love Ghost and like Jon, even this dumbed down D&D version of Jon, Ghost should have pissed on his leg twice. [...]

That’s how the make knights: it’ a procedure called “adumbment”. 

[joaozinm]

1 hour ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

I mean, clearly Doran's lack of action is what finally set Oberyn off, he decided he was sick of waiting and wated to stir things up.   Doran planted some seeds and was hoping to see if any of them bore fruit.  As Lord Verys said, he's not a mastermind consipirator and was never portrayed as such.

Actually, the fact that he doesnt have a POV tells US that grrm didnt want us to know what his schemings were. We get areo hotah POV instead.

He has plotting the return of the targaryens since the rebellion and the outcome is not yet known, despite his son's failure.

Then, i do think he is portrayed as a mastermind conspirator. He is also smart enough to discover his daughter betrayal and the cersei's plan to retrieve Marcella.

[divica]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Doran Martell never was a master manipulator or great plotter. That's a fantasy people concocted while we only had AFfC. The Arianne-Viserys plan was not smart precisely because Doran didn't have the stones to actually reach out to Viserys III more openly, and actually do something to groom him to rule. It was just a secret marriage pact he was only willing to actually go through with if circumstances would allow it - circumstances he was not exactly eager to bring about. He did pretty much nothing to prepare Viserys III's invasion of Westeros or preparing a Targaryen restoration outside Dorne.

And the Quentyn plan is just a risky gamble - which then fails - concocted after Doran learns about the return of the dragons. The Mother of Dragons is so alluring that actively seeking her out trumps Doran's timid plotting to seat Viserys III and Arianne on the Iron Throne. But because Quentyn was neither groomed for the role of a prince consort nor to woo the fairest woman in the world he fails at his quest.

Which he has to get the actual Dornish story going - the one with Arianne and Aegon at the heart. There has to be an explanation why Dorne is not going to support Daenerys Targaryen. And the groundwork for that was laid in ADwD.

Yeah, the Targaryens were always just potential tools for Doran. He wanted his revenge and he wanted his daughter Arianne as queen consort at the side of Viserys III, but he wasn't willing to risk his house and the well-being of all Dorne over his petty revenge and the aggrandizement of his own house (or rather: the restoration of House Martell to the place it would have had had King Rhaegar I and Queen Elia ruled over the Seven Kingdoms).

Doran Martell is not a cartoonish master manipulator - and it is rather odd that @Cas Stark wants him to be one such when he finds Euron Greyjoy to be too cartoonish a villain... Doran Martell is the only reasonable and sensible father and statesman Westeros actually has. Everybody else is more focused on his own petty ambition, honor, sense of pride, etc. But this guy can actually see beyond that and take into account what actually matters.

pff great father and statesman… Lets compare doran with ned. Who has a happier familly and most stable region in the beguining of got? 

Given that doran doesn t leave dorne the only father and statesman worse than him is robert...

And the problem with doran is that he says he wants revenge but he doesn t do anything. He didn t need to be very involved, but he could have indirectly suported viserys in several ways… Could have seeked allies in westeros or essos… Doing nothing shows he just is bad at whatever he is trying to do...

And one thing that I always thought was fascinating. Isn t it interesting that an acident happended between oberyn and willas that made an aliance between the only 2 regions that supported the targs extremely dificult? I think that one day we will hear more about it... 

[Gala]

On 4/22/2019 at 6:28 AM, Rockroi said:

 

I Would Have, In No Particular Order, Still Killed Your Fucking Crazy Father; I Still Would Have Attacked Your Stone-Headed Father in the Streets After Your Idiot Mother Kidnapped My Brother; I Still Would Have Tried To Kill Your Brother At Whispering Wood; I still Would Have Escaped; I still Would Have Done Pretty Much Everything I Did Until Now Because I was Right In Every One Of Those Cases And Your Relatives All Sucked.  Jaime Lannister is the Fucking Boss.  I loved how they were all just laying into him about all that he did and he said- to their smug, faces, "Yeah, ah, I would have done it all over and over again."  A perfect moment; Jaime is the best character left in the show next to maybe Sansa.  I hope he dies soon so I can stop watching him be tortured by this terribly written, glacially paced disaster.  Oh, and I am cool with Brienne's defense, even if she could have mentioned the wildfire... I'm sort of glad she didn't.  Its as if Brienne knows that Jaime told her that in confidence so its not hers to sahre (but if necessary cooberate).  

 

Yeah,  up until Bran said only one phrase and Jamie immediately stopped being smug and actually became ashamed and afraid. And that was the moment I liked, as well as when Brianne vouched for him (which was predictable as hell)

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, divica said:

pff great father and statesman… Lets compare doran with ned. Who has a happier familly and most stable region in the beguining of got? 

Given that doran doesn t leave dorne the only father and statesman worse than him is robert...

Nonsense, the North has Roose Bolton. There is no Roose Bolton in Dorne. It is not Doran's fault that Arianne has the false impression about him and his plans. And she still loves him even while thinking he intends to give Dorne to Quentyn.

Ned is a complete failure as a father and statesman. His example causes Robb to get himself killed, too.

16 minutes ago, divica said:

And the problem with doran is that he says he wants revenge but he doesn t do anything. He didn t need to be very involved, but he could have indirectly suported viserys in several ways… Could have seeked allies in westeros or essos… Doing nothing shows he just is bad at whatever he is trying to do...

And you think Doran secretly supporting Viserys wouldn't have brought down Robert's war hammer on Doran's head? Possibly at a time when Viserys wasn't ready to serve as a proper figurehead?

16 minutes ago, divica said:

And one thing that I always thought was fascinating. Isn t it interesting that an acident happended between oberyn and willas that made an aliance between the only 2 regions that supported the targs extremely dificult? I think that one day we will hear more about it... 

Considering that there is actually no bad blood between either Oberyn or Willas on a personal level, chances are pretty high that Lord Willas is going to get along splendidly with the Martells.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

35 minutes ago, joaozinm said:

Actually, the fact that he doesnt have a POV tells US that grrm didnt want us to know what his schemings were. We get areo hotah POV instead.

He has plotting the return of the targaryens since the rebellion and the outcome is not yet known, despite his son's failure.

Then, i do think he is portrayed as a mastermind conspirator. He is also smart enough to discover his daughter betrayal and the cersei's plan to retrieve Marcella.

The point is not that he didn’t have plans, the point is that his plans were not these perfectly crafted works of genius that perfectly anticipated everything. 

These plans all had holes in them, which is why he hadn’t done anything yet, he’s not sure enough of their success to risk Dorne and his family on them.

People who point to these holes as proof that GRRM retconned his plans into the story think are missing what his story is about. 

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nonsense, the North has Roose Bolton. There is no Roose Bolton in Dorne. It is not Doran's fault that Arianne has the false impression about him and his plans. And she still loves him even while thinking he intends to give Dorne to Quentyn.

Roose that always behaved when ned was in charge. Then we have several houses that openly dislike the martells… And not only does arianne plot against him quentin is ready to die in a stupid plan to kidnap a dragon because of doran's amazing fatherhood…
 This is obviously a very United familly!

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned is a complete failure as a father and statesman. His example causes Robb to get himself killed, too.

yeah, robb breaking his vow to marry a frey, relaeasing a hostage (theon) and declaring himself king is clearly robb folowing ned's examples… 

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And you think Doran secretly supporting Viserys wouldn't have brought down Robert's war hammer on Doran's head? Possibly at a time when Viserys wasn't ready to serve as a proper figurehead?

yeah, if doran sent Money to them via some acquaintance of his wife he would obviously be found out and blamed… Or if he payed a dozen sellswords to protect them… Or a dozen other small things… It is much smarter to let viserys live in poverty and risk his death...

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that there is actually no bad blood between either Oberyn or Willas on a personal level, chances are pretty high that Lord Willas is going to get along splendidly with the Martells.

There is between mace and the martells. Therefore any possible aliance between them was impossible after the accident. Which is surprisingly good for robert's reign...

[longest night]

16 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

True. The smallfolk will love Aegon. **cough, cough, the smallfolk are important**

Well, Daenerys is likely to come with more than just a Dothraki super-khalasar. Try Tyrion Lannister, the Unsullied, a bunch of former slaves, Victarion Greyjoy, at least one red priest and the Fiery Hand. The Unsullied aren't that bad and former slaves are no threat in themselves. No one likes Tyrion Lannister and an Ironborn pirate playing king can never be good news...so that's two more strikes against her. But the Fiery Hand? And Moqorro and some other more competent red priests?

Yikes.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'd be on the very next boat to the Summer Islands. Hell, I'd even give Asshai a try.

This looks bad on paper yes and Daenerys will likely be seen as a terrorist by everyone south of the neck (everyone north of the Neck will have bigger fish to fry) but, if my predictions are true, then well...let's just say that fAegon and Friends along with Cersei, Euron and everyone else south of the neck supporting any one of the former will have been asking for the wrath of Daenerys and that they will have no one to blame but themselves.

But yes. Daenerys is going to look more like Magneto than Wonder Woman.

The red priests are going to be a PR disaster. They will come in burning septs and  Godswoods.

Aegon is going to have support of the Faith Militant which is turning into a massive decentralized army, and Dorne which is not battleworn right now and have been known to be ruthless and unconquerable. She could roll in and sit on the throne, but the entire realm is going to be in chaos. 

[Crona]

36 minutes ago, divica said:

pff great father and statesman… Lets compare doran with ned. Who has a happier familly and most stable region in the beguining of got? 

Given that doran doesn t leave dorne the only father and statesman worse than him is robert...

And the problem with doran is that he says he wants revenge but he doesn t do anything. He didn t need to be very involved, but he could have indirectly suported viserys in several ways… Could have seeked allies in westeros or essos… Doing nothing shows he just is bad at whatever he is trying to do...

I think the marriage contract was a fail safe in case Viserys ever massed an army and he pledge support with his army and Arianne’s hand. But other than that what did you expect him to do for Viserys? He’s not his child nor does he have any direct family relations to him. He’s not obligated to do much more then as a head of his house.  

We also don’t know who his friend at court is but I’m pretty sure it’s Varys. And we know how Varys crafted the Lannisters against the Starks, perhaps Doran knows of this. What better way to get revenge while they are fighting each other and keeping your hands clean.

[Crona]

Sorry double post

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

The point is not that he didn’t have plans, the point is that his plans were not these perfectly crafted works of genius that perfectly anticipated everything. 

These plans all had holes in them, which is why he hadn’t done anything yet, he’s not sure enough of their success to risk Dorne and his family on them.

People who point to these holes as proof that GRRM retconned his plans into the story think are missing what his story is about. 

"I want revenge" is not a plan.  There is, as far as I remember, not a single thing that he has actually done to further his alleged plan since he signed the marriage pact.  No secret help to Viserys.  No secret acts against the Lannisters.  Nothing.  And all the while he did nothing he alienated his daughter, and his brother who finally took matters in his own hands, and ended up dead, and then, his first action is to send off his unprepared son without any  proper counselors or instructions, also now dead. His nieces despise him.  The guy is a fucking disaster. 

[joaozinm]

1 minute ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

The point is not that he didn’t have plans, the point is that his plans were not these perfectly crafted works of genius that perfectly anticipated everything. 

These plans all had holes in them, which is why he hadn’t done anything yet, he’s not sure enough of their success to risk Dorne and his family on them.

People who point to these holes as proof that GRRM retconned his plans into the story think are missing what his story is about. 

The so called mastermind of conspiration: littlefinger and varys.

Both achieved results with their planning: littlefinger has harenhall title and the vale while have Sansa as some kind of influence on the North.

Varys has helped bringing chaos to westeros as he intended.

Doran indeed hasnt achieved a thing with his known plans (yet).  But he has been conspiring likewise. His way of playing the game is much more cautious because his stakes are a bigger.

Remember his main goal is revenge on the lannister.

He is already a lord of one the most powerful houses of westeros and cant risk much like the other two main conspirators... But he has his plans and probably somethings we dont know. Like what to do with Myrcella...

He is a different player much because of the stakes but of course he os presented as wise and dangerous.

There is even a quote describing both brothers assuring that doran os dangerous in a way different than oberyn

 

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, longest night said:

The red priests are going to be a PR disaster. They will come in burning septs and  Godswoods.

Aegon is going to have support of the Faith Militant which is turning into a massive decentralized army, and Dorne which is not battleworn right now and have been known to be ruthless and unconquerable. She could roll in and sit on the throne, but the entire realm is going to be in chaos. 

That's a big if.

I'm not entirely sure if Daenerys will come to Westeros with the sole intention on overthrowing Aegon. She could be coming to Westeros to deal with the massive invisible threats that are Euron and the Others...only for her to get sidetracked stalled by Aegon and/or manipulated and redirected by Tyrion.

Even if she rolls right in and somehow manages to turn the Red Keep into another Harrenhal so as to get rid of Aegon/JonCon/Arianne, the Iron Throne will be lost and there will be absolutely no chance of Daenerys ruling anything apart from Dragonstone without putting hundreds of thousands -- if not millions -- of people to the sword or the fire. She'll be another Maegor...

2 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

The point is not that he didn’t have plans, the point is that his plans were not these perfectly crafted works of genius that perfectly anticipated everything. 

These plans all had holes in them, which is why he hadn’t done anything yet, he’s not sure enough of their success to risk Dorne and his family on them.

People who point to these holes as proof that GRRM retconned his plans into the story think are missing what his story is about. 

Thank you for saying that.

But I think it also needs to be said that Doran's plans are notoriously outdated. He waited too long to do anything of note and now his plans -- which probably might have been these perfectly crafted works of genius -- are overripe and spoiling in themselves just like the blood oranges in the first Areo POV chapter.

Not only that, Doran's silent procrastination (for whatever reason) directly contributed to the deaths of Oberyn and Quentyn both as well as the aborted schemes of Arianne. House Martell -- or rather Doran Martell -- is not very popular in Dorne anymore because Doran Martell sits on his hands and lets good plans expire.

 

 

[Haskelltier]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

"I want revenge" is not a plan.  There is, as far as I remember, not a single thing that he has actually done to further his alleged plan since he signed the marriage pact.  No secret help to Viserys.  No secret acts against the Lannisters.  Nothing.  And all the while he did nothing he alienated his daughter, and his brother who finally took matters in his own hands, and ended up dead, and then, his first action is to send off his unprepared son without any  proper counselors or instructions, also now dead. His nieces despise him.  The guy is a fucking disaster. 

To be fair, even his daughter and heir didn't know of his plans. So the chances are very small that any other person in Westeros, who has a POV chapter in A Song of Ice and Fire, will know of any of Doran's secret, hidden actions to support Viserys directly or indirectly. I mean, all things we know about the story are told through the eyes of persons, who aren't omniscient. So when these people don't know of a secret action supporting Viserys, the reader won't know either.

Perhaps there is a secret connection between him and Varys/Illyrio Mopatis, who can easily protect Viserys from any real danger while playing the loyal spymaster for Robert. I mean, Viserys in the books and show wasn't really the most competent person when it comes to hiding from possible murderers. So why where all of "Robert's hired knives" (so there were people who wanted Viserys and Daenerys dead, wheather they were Robert's or anybody elses) unable to kill him? I mean, the wineseller, who tried to poison Daenerys, was almost successful and Daenerys position as a khaleesi gave her far more protection (at least from direct attacks) than they had before when they were travelling through Essos on their own.

So it's very likely, that they had a hidden protector and it is not out of question that Doran had a hand in this directly or indirectly. The reader simply doesn't know because almost everyone else doesn't know.

[joaozinm]

If we consider: baratheon, lannister, Stark, tyrell, arryn, tully and Martell as the most powerful houses of westeros.

Most of them faced big or entire army losses, while Martell and its banners remain at almost Full force.

So, doran's "lack of action" kept his forces during this time of crisis and the continent os about to be invaded by Dany, aegon, the ironborn and probably the Night king.

We will see If he was a fool or not judging by the results but right now dorne is pretty strong while others who "act" are dead or doomed.

[Gertrude]

5 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Getting back to this episode, I think in the end it doesn't work because Brienne in the show didn't earn the knighting.  She's a good fighter but she's not a true knight.  She broke her vow to persue personal vendetta, she inflicted torture, she was a jerk to Podrick, she's just another bully full of cynicism and disdain.   There is none of the idealism and innate kindness that makes the Brienne character one of my favorites in the books.  

I honestly can't remember for sure, but I thought the show kept in the part of Brienne's vow to Cat that had the clause about Stannis - not getting in her way when it came time to bring justice to Stannis (or however that was worded).

But overall I agree that Book and Show Brienne are completely different aside from the size and vocation.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

"I want revenge" is not a plan.  There is, as far as I remember, not a single thing that he has actually done to further his alleged plan since he signed the marriage pact.  No secret help to Viserys.  No secret acts against the Lannisters.  Nothing.  And all the while he did nothing he alienated his daughter, and his brother who finally took matters in his own hands, and ended up dead, and then, his first action is to send off his unprepared son without any  proper counselors or instructions, also now dead. His nieces despise him.  The guy is a fucking disaster. 

You are judging the story before it is finished. Sure, Doran failed to kill Tywin, but that was not his only objective. He admitted that he also wants to destroy everything the man built - and it is quite clear that Nym and Tyene and Arianne are going to do that the moment Dorne declares for Aegon. It might even turn out that Nym and Tyene personally put down Tommen and Myrcella. If Nym where to get to KL with Myrcella before anybody finds out that Dorne is siding with Aegon she could take her retinue and avenge Rhaenys by dealing with Tommen and Myrcella.

Also and overall - doing nothing there was pretty smart. Dorne still has vast armies and could now greatly increase its sphere of influence by attacking the people who stupidly weakened themselves. 

I mean, it seems clear that Littlefinger eventually wants to control the Iron Throne but I don't hear you complaining that he didn't show his colors yet, didn't make a move, didn't use the Vale troops or use his vast wealth to buy sellswords, etc.

3 hours ago, longest night said:

The red priests are going to be a PR disaster. They will come in burning septs and  Godswoods.

Aegon is going to have support of the Faith Militant which is turning into a massive decentralized army, and Dorne which is not battleworn right now and have been known to be ruthless and unconquerable. She could roll in and sit on the throne, but the entire realm is going to be in chaos. 

It will depend how much support Aegon is going to get and how he is dealing with his enemies. It might turn out that the Westermen end up being Dany's allies simply because Connington and Aegon and the Dornish brutally murdered Tommen and Myrcella, say. After all, if you have issues with Aegon when Dany arrives she will be your natural ally.

Not to mention the effect of the dragons. Dragons are symbols of legitimacy and power and royalty. Aegon doesn't have a dragon, and assuming he never acquires one Dany's arrival itself will cause many lords and knights and commoners to reconsider their allegiances - especially if there are rumors and revelations to be heard about Aegon's actual parentage.

But overall Aegon must have a pretty strong power basis when Dany arrives or else he wouldn't last long. 

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

"I want revenge" is not a plan.  There is, as far as I remember, not a single thing that he has actually done to further his alleged plan since he signed the marriage pact.  No secret help to Viserys.  No secret acts against the Lannisters.  Nothing.  And all the while he did nothing he alienated his daughter, and his brother who finally took matters in his own hands, and ended up dead, and then, his first action is to send off his unprepared son without any  proper counselors or instructions, also now dead. His nieces despise him.  The guy is a fucking disaster. 

At the risk of wading into this mess, I'd like to correct you here - Quentyn set off with 5 people, one being a well learned maester. And his friend, Cletus Yronwood sounded like a noble who might have smoother words for Daenerys. But both died when they got attacked by corsairs, because unlike the show, shit still happens to travelers in the books. Outlaws still exist. Compare this to Jaime travelling by himself to Winterfell, and apparently having no issues. Or back in season 5 when Littlefinger took Sansa on the mountain road (they met Brienne at the Inn of the Crossroads) because the mountain clans, that Tyrion promised the Vale to, ceased to exist.

A larger party for Quentyn would have drawn more unwanted attention, and it still would not have guaranteed that the critical people made it to Meereen.

[Cas Stark]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are judging the story before it is finished. Sure, Doran failed to kill Tywin, but that was not his only objective. He admitted that he also wants to destroy everything the man built - and it is quite clear that Nym and Tyene and Arianne are going to do that the moment Dorne declares for Aegon. It might even turn out that Nym and Tyene personally put down Tommen and Myrcella. If Nym where to get to KL with Myrcella before anybody finds out that Dorne is siding with Aegon she could take her retinue and avenge Rhaenys by dealing with Tommen and Myrcella.

Also and overall - doing nothing there was pretty smart. Dorne still has vast armies and could now greatly increase its sphere of influence by attacking the people who stupidly weakened themselves. 

I mean, it seems clear that Littlefinger eventually wants to control the Iron Throne but I don't hear you complaining that he didn't show his colors yet, didn't make a move, didn't use the Vale troops or use his vast wealth to buy sellswords, etc.

It will depend how much support Aegon is going to get and how he is dealing with his enemies. It might turn out that the Westermen end up being Dany's allies simply because Connington and Aegon and the Dornish brutally murdered Tommen and Myrcella, say. After all, if you have issues with Aegon when Dany arrives she will be your natural ally.

Not to mention the effect of the dragons. Dragons are symbols of legitimacy and power and royalty. Aegon doesn't have a dragon, and assuming he never acquires one Dany's arrival itself will cause many lords and knights and commoners to reconsider their allegiances - especially if there are rumors and revelations to be heard about Aegon's actual parentage.

But overall Aegon must have a pretty strong power basis when Dany arrives or else he wouldn't last long. 

? Um, Littlefinger has been making moves for years?  I don't even know what you are talking about with this.