SPOILERS: Rant and Rave

[MinscS2]

6 hours ago, State Trooper said:

Of course I understand "human "behaviour," but as I said, I just don't see the point in all the bitching and moaning.

You stepped into the wrong thread.
This is the "Rant and Rave"-thread. Bitching and moaning is exactly what people come here to do.

[Lee-Sensei]

13 hours ago, Mystical said:

You know there is this nifty thing called 'Google' or any other search engine where you can find out how realistic that would be. If D&D have all the dead Starks rise, you know they didn't use any of them. In a place like Dorne, bones would be preserved for hundreds of years due to the warm and dry weather. In a place like the crypts however, moist and dank, bones would decay much faster. So at most you could have maybe the last few generations rise but not all the Starks in the crypts.

Pretty sure she wasn't. Since we don't get any idea of a timeline in the show, the only reference to passage of time on this show is something like Gilly's child. Little Sam stayed a baby for at least 2-3 Seasons and he doesn't look even remotely like he's 7-8 years old now. So Sansa was not 18 and neither was Arya.

I’m pretty sure it was confirmed that’s $ years has passed in the show (presumably one year way season). Arya is a woman now. She was not at the start of the series. I agree that some things are weird with the shows timeline, but several years have passed now. Plus, the Starks err already older in the show than they were in the books. Jon and Robb were both about Theons age when in the books they were about 4 or 5 years younger. Sansa was probably about 13 or 14 at the start of the show and 18 or 19 when she married Ramsay. Joffrey was 17 IIRC in season 3 and Sansa was probably no more than 2 years younger than him.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

You know, to be honest here I just get the feeling, we're evidently supposed to be completely invested in this Targaryen pissing contest, while at the same time being like Rob Stark and War of Five Kings? Meh, who fuckin' cares!

One assumes you should care what the story you are talking about and, I assume, read is about. I take you would have liked the Stark-Lannister war to continue? You would have liked to read a different story? That's okay, but that's not the story we get. And it was evident since, you know, ACoK that Prince Aegon would come back later in the series. If you didn't catch that or chose to ignore it, etc. it is your mistake.

9 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

And I think Aegon, goes down in Dorne. That cyvasse game he played with Tyrion, I think suggest that.

It suggests that giving up the dragons and Dany is going to come back haunt him. It doesn't indicate failure against the present powers in Westeros. If Aegon were defeated/killed before Dany arrives or if he ended up just some sort of semi-successful, sidelined war lord then his entire story would indeed be pointless - which is not going to happen. He has been announced in prophecy as being a lie Dany has to slay.

[OldGimletEye]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes you should care what the story you are talking about and, I assume, read is about. I take you would have liked the Stark-Lannister war to continue? You would have liked to read a different story? That's okay, but that's not the story we get. And it was evident since, you know, ACoK that Prince Aegon would come back later in the series. If you didn't catch that or chose to ignore it, etc. it is your mistake.

Now why would would you conflate the notion of liking reading about the War Of Five Kings or the Lannister/Stark conflict with wishing it to continue? Sometimes I like reading books about WW2, the Napoleonic Wars, or whatever. Doesn't mean I wish they continued. That suggestion by you is a whole lotta nonsense.

As far as it being evident that Prince Aegon would return (and be significant in the way you think he is going to be), since ACOK, well I don't know about that. Sounds like some real creative foreshadowing. Of course, I don't claim to be the best little ol' foreshadower around. I prefer pretty obvious shit. 

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It suggests that giving up the dragons and Dany is going to come back haunt him. It doesn't indicate failure against the present powers in Westeros. If Aegon were defeated/killed before Dany arrives or if he ended up just some sort of semi-successful, sidelined war lord then his entire story would indeed be pointless - which is not going to happen. He has been announced in prophecy as being a lie Dany has to slay.

Uh yeah, I know he loses to Dany. I've never said he'd be defeated before Dany arrives to Westeros.

I think it quite likely she does a Tarly on Aegon.

[Le Cygne]

Well... it was such a dull episode, not much to add... but I agree with the praise of Nikolaj Coster Waldau, he consistently rises above the dreary and nonsensical dialogue with just a look.

They'd have been better off doing the show as a pantomime. We'd still not know what was going on, because nothing is really going on, but at least it would be more entertaining.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

As far as it being evident that Prince Aegon would return (and be significant in the way you think he is going to be), since ACOK, well I don't know about that. Sounds like some real creative foreshadowing. Of course, I don't claim to be the best little ol' foreshadower around. I prefer pretty obvious shit. 

It is actually pretty obvious. The stuff about him being the promised prince and the guy with the song of ice and fire. Also the cloth dragon later on which is later called a 'mummer's dragon' by Dany, followed by Quaithe's talk about the mummer's dragon coming to Dany, culminating in the Shy Maid anchoring right next to a mummer ship at one point. Not to mention the former mummer Varys being the one championing Aegon's cause, making him basically his dragon, in the Epilogue.

I mean, surely you also caught the fact that the shadowless blue-eyed king with the burning sword was Stannis, right? That was easier because we knew him as a character already, but at times you have to go back and reassess past stuff when you have more puzzle pieces.

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Uh yeah, I know he loses to Dany. I've never said he'd be defeated before Dany arrives to Westeros.

Okay, but then he actually isn't 'a goner' or unimportant. I mean, if we are talking the show then it is also clear that all of the good guys' opponents will be dead or the defeated at the end, right? Does this mean, say, Cersei shouldn't have been introduced in the show?

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think it quite likely she does a Tarly on Aegon.

That feels to ham-fisted for me. I think if this Second Dance is supposed to resemble the first in more than just the name it is going to be a very cruel and insidious conflict. Just burning the enemy would be a rather quick death in this setting. But, sure, chances are not that bad that we'll get a reversal or variation of the death of Queen Rhaenyra.

As I laid out above - and as has been said by other people already - AFfC/ADwD set up the future conflict(s) - Aegon and Dany and Euron and Cersei, etc. do need credible motivations to see violence escalate more and more. With Euron we have this in his madness, with Cersei we'll get it with her losing all her remaining children, blaming others for their deaths (justified or unjustified), but Dany and Aegon really need a good motivation as to why they will want to fight and kill each other. A lot has to happen on that front.

The show is not even a pale reflection of all that inner motivation. I mean, what exactly are the personal issues between Dany and Cersei, for instance? They never met, they never harmed or hurt each other, they could reach a compromise. Why doesn't Dany never consider offering Cersei Casterly Rock and why does Cersei in the show insist she has to be a usurping queen? This all makes no sense.

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Well... it was such a dull episode, not much to add... but I agree with the praise of Nikolaj Coster Waldau, he consistently rises above the dreary and nonsensical dialogue with just a look.

They'd have been better off doing the show as a pantomime. We'd still not know what was going on, because nothing is really going on, but at least it would be more entertaining.

There are some good actors in the show. Nikolaj certainly is one of them, but if you have crappy lines, a non-existing character arc, and no internal consistency you are fucked if you care about your role. And playing Jaime was really a dream role of complexity and nuance until they ruined everything in season 4.

[divica]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That feels to ham-fisted for me. I think if this Second Dance is supposed to resemble the first in more than just the name it is going to be a very cruel and insidious conflict. Just burning the enemy would be a rather quick death in this setting. But, sure, chances are not that bad that we'll get a reversal or variation of the death of Queen Rhaenyra.

As I laid out above - and as has been said by other people already - AFfC/ADwD set up the future conflict(s) - Aegon and Dany and Euron and Cersei, etc. do need credible motivations to see violence escalate more and more. With Euron we have this in his madness, with Cersei we'll get it with her losing all her remaining children, blaming others for their deaths (justified or unjustified), but Dany and Aegon really need a good motivation as to why they will want to fight and kill each other. A lot has to happen on that front.

There doesn t need to happen a lot for danny and Aegon to fight each other to the death. Aegon just has to get the IT (which doesn t seem all that dificult if the lannister-tyrell aliance crumbles) and danny only has to arrive at westeros and call him an imposter or even blackfyre (which alsso seems pretty likely given the profecies she has received about a false dragon and that tyrion and maybe other charactersmight know something about the falsehood of aegon's claim).

 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Getting back to this episode, I think in the end it doesn't work because Brienne in the show didn't earn the knighting.  She's a good fighter but she's not a true knight.  She broke her vow to persue personal vendetta, she inflicted torture, she was a jerk to Podrick, she's just another bully full of cynicism and disdain.   There is none of the idealism and innate kindness that makes the Brienne character one of my favorites in the books.  

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

For all the accusation that GRRM "retconed" Dorne, let's not forget he had the Mummer's dragon in as early as ACOK.  

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, divica said:

There doesn t need to happen a lot for danny and Aegon to fight each other to the death. Aegon just has to get the IT (which doesn t seem all that dificult if the lannister-tyrell aliance crumbles) and danny only has to arrive at westeros and call him an imposter or even blackfyre (which alsso seems pretty likely given the profecies she has received about a false dragon and that tyrion and maybe other charactersmight know something about the falsehood of aegon's claim).

That's not enough to make it a really violent struggle. They could enter into a marriage alliance and all that would go away, no? There has to be a reason why they don't want to do that. Even if one or both of them were married by the time Dany comes Targaryen polygamy could enable them to marry even while one or both of them have other spouses. There also have to be reason why nobody wants to do that.

Keep in mind that at this time many people should technically be tired at war, so there should be people in both camps pushing for a peaceful settlement (after all, in both camps would be Targaryen loyalists and they would technically be both opposed - at least originally - to the usurping Baratheon regime and whatever is left of that). There must be things taking place that prevent that. Things so grievous that they might not be willing to work together while they learn about the threat posed by the Others.

10 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Getting back to this episode, I think in the end it doesn't work because Brienne in the show didn't earn the knighting.  She's a good fighter but she's not a true knight.  She broke her vow to persue personal vendetta, she inflicted torture, she was a jerk to Podrick, she's just another bully full of cynicism and disdain.   There is none of the idealism and innate kindness that makes the Brienne character one of my favorites in the books.  

Sure, Brienne has nothing to do with the character George wrote. She is basically a caricature of the character he created. A complete joke.

[OldGimletEye]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is actually pretty obvious. The stuff about him being the promised prince and the guy with the song of ice and fire. Also the cloth dragon later on which is later called a 'mummer's dragon' by Dany, followed by Quaithe's talk about the mummer's dragon coming to Dany, culminating in the Shy Maid anchoring right next to a mummer ship at one point. Not to mention the former mummer Varys being the one championing Aegon's cause, making him basically his dragon, in the Epilogue.

So in other words Dany and Aegon are going to brawl? Yeah I think we get all that.

But it seems to me you go beyond what most people know, and argue that somehow it is more important to the story than some of the other stuff.

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Okay, but then he actually isn't 'a goner' or unimportant. I mean, if we are talking the show then it is also clear that all of the good guys' opponents will be dead or the defeated at the end, right? Does this mean, say, Cersei shouldn't have been introduced in the show?

Of course, Cersei shouldn't been left out. After all she is main character. Not some guy that shows up in the last book, destined to receive a smack down.

Now whether he is important or unimportant, as far as the story is concerned, I guess  it depends whether you think the final end game is important or whether you think how you get there is important too.

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That feels to ham-fisted for me. I think if this Second Dance is supposed to resemble the first in more than just the name it is going to be a very cruel and insidious conflict. Just burning the enemy would be a rather quick death in this setting. But, sure, chances are not that bad that we'll get a reversal or variation of the death of Queen Rhaenyra.

Well maybe it's ham fisted or maybe it's not. But if it's supposed to be a Second Dance, then things don't bode well for Aegon. And I think we can safely say, it won't be Dany who loses.

 

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's not enough to make it a really violent struggle. They could enter into a marriage alliance and all that would go away, no? There has to be a reason why they don't want to do that. Even if one or both of them were married by the time Dany comes Targaryen polygamy could enable them to marry even while one or both of them have other spouses. There also have to be reason why nobody wants to do that.

Keep in mind that at this time many people should technically be tired at war, so there should be people in both camps pushing for a peaceful settlement (after all, in both camps would be Targaryen loyalists and they would technically be both opposed - at least originally - to the usurping Baratheon regime and whatever is left of that). There must be things taking place that prevent that. Things so grievous that they might not be willing to work together while they learn about the threat posed by the Others.

If danny thinks that Aegon is an impostor or a blackfyre trying to get the throne that belongs to her familly why should she ever accept to marry him?

Then danny is bringing dothriaki! I think most of westeros wouldn t want them in their lands… And I am not even including the rest of danny's foreign men...

Adding the death of quentin, burned alive by a dragon (dorne would be supporting Aegon)… And her acusations agains Aegon I don t see how anyone can see a peaceful resolution ...

Everything point to war. And you are forgeting that the dornish and golden company haven t seen much war for example… 

I think we will have 2 monarchs with relatively fresh troops that can easily come to hate each other...

[Cas Stark]

18 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

For all the accusation that GRRM "retconed" Dorne, let's not forget he had the Mummer's dragon in as early as ACOK.  

Dorne and the Martells were always there, of course.  But, Doran's stupid as fuck plan has to be some kind of a retcon to both bring Doran and Dorne directly into the story and get to the fire and blood speech, it's still blindingly awful because why would Doran intend to marry his daughter to Viserys and do literally not a single thing to help him?  So, I have to believe it was poor retcon on GRRM part, since it really does not make sense without a crackpot theory to drive it.

[State Trooper]

11 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

You stepped into the wrong thread.
This is the "Rant and Rave"-thread. Bitching and moaning is exactly what people come here to do.

Don't they just

I tell you something else I've noticed, by the length of some of their posts and replies, in all threads, people have got too much time on their hands

Man, people think deeply about this show, eh? I wonder if HBO, D&D and GM know just what a monster they created? I mean I'm sure they do, but I can't imagine they did when they first sat down and talked about making the books into a TV series.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

We don't know that he did nothing to help him? How do you know that Darry wasn't being financially supported by Doran?  Besides, Doran's ultimate plan isn't about Viserys, it's about vengeance for House Martell and eventually House Martell on the the Iron throne. Viserys was just a means to an end.  Doran was cautious, and it could be that he was waiting for an opportunity that hadn't happened yet, until now.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

We don't know that he did nothing to help him? How do you know that Darry wasn't being financially supported by Doran?  Besides, Doran's ultimate plan isn't about Viserys, it's about vengeance for House Martell and eventually House Martell on the the Iron throne. Viserys was just a means to an end.  Doran was cautious, and it could be that he was waiting for an opportunity that hadn't happened yet, until now.

How would she be financially supported when Viserys had to sell all of their valuable belongings including their mother's crown and freeload off of people who got a kick out of hosting 'the last dragons'?  

Doran has no plan in any realistic sense of the word, that's what I am saying.  The people he wanted revenge against:  Tywin Lannister and the Mountain, primarily, are dead with no assist from him.  Robert Baratheon, dead with no assist from him.  Rhaegar Targaryen, dead with no assist from him.  All of the people involved in harming his sister and his niece and nephew are dead and he had zero to do with any of it.  Viserys was a means to an end, but he did nothing to facilitate that end and when he finally does get off his ass, he indirectly causes his son's death.  It is pathetic that Tywin Lannister ever thought Doran Martell was a worthy adversary, because he isn't. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Dorne and the Martells were always there, of course.  But, Doran's stupid as fuck plan has to be some kind of a retcon to both bring Doran and Dorne directly into the story and get to the fire and blood speech, it's still blindingly awful because why would Doran intend to marry his daughter to Viserys and do literally not a single thing to help him?  So, I have to believe it was poor retcon on GRRM part, since it really does not make sense without a crackpot theory to drive it.

Doran Martell never was a master manipulator or great plotter. That's a fantasy people concocted while we only had AFfC. The Arianne-Viserys plan was not smart precisely because Doran didn't have the stones to actually reach out to Viserys III more openly, and actually do something to groom him to rule. It was just a secret marriage pact he was only willing to actually go through with if circumstances would allow it - circumstances he was not exactly eager to bring about. He did pretty much nothing to prepare Viserys III's invasion of Westeros or preparing a Targaryen restoration outside Dorne.

And the Quentyn plan is just a risky gamble - which then fails - concocted after Doran learns about the return of the dragons. The Mother of Dragons is so alluring that actively seeking her out trumps Doran's timid plotting to seat Viserys III and Arianne on the Iron Throne. But because Quentyn was neither groomed for the role of a prince consort nor to woo the fairest woman in the world he fails at his quest.

Which he has to get the actual Dornish story going - the one with Arianne and Aegon at the heart. There has to be an explanation why Dorne is not going to support Daenerys Targaryen. And the groundwork for that was laid in ADwD.

1 minute ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

We don't know that he did nothing to help him? How do you know that Darry wasn't being financially supported by Doran?  Besides, Doran's ultimate plan isn't about Viserys, it's about vengeance for House Martell and eventually House Martell on the the Iron throne. Viserys was just a means to an end.  Doran was cautious, and it could be that he was waiting for an opportunity that hadn't happened yet, until now.

Yeah, the Targaryens were always just potential tools for Doran. He wanted his revenge and he wanted his daughter Arianne as queen consort at the side of Viserys III, but he wasn't willing to risk his house and the well-being of all Dorne over his petty revenge and the aggrandizement of his own house (or rather: the restoration of House Martell to the place it would have had had King Rhaegar I and Queen Elia ruled over the Seven Kingdoms).

Doran Martell is not a cartoonish master manipulator - and it is rather odd that @Cas Stark wants him to be one such when he finds Euron Greyjoy to be too cartoonish a villain... Doran Martell is the only reasonable and sensible father and statesman Westeros actually has. Everybody else is more focused on his own petty ambition, honor, sense of pride, etc. But this guy can actually see beyond that and take into account what actually matters.

[Le Cygne]

19 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Getting back to this episode, I think in the end it doesn't work because Brienne in the show didn't earn the knighting.  She's a good fighter but she's not a true knight.  She broke her vow to persue personal vendetta, she inflicted torture, she was a jerk to Podrick, she's just another bully full of cynicism and disdain.   There is none of the idealism and innate kindness that makes the Brienne character one of my favorites in the books.  

Yeah, that didn't ring true for the show at all.

So Brienne knows that she avenged her dead crush after standing around doing nothing all season (why not try to rescue Sandra immediately, she knew she wasn't safe from the get go, just do it). She never owned up to that.

She never owned up to picking the fight with Sandor while she KNEW Arya wanted to stay with him and was fine (she admitted she knew this in season 6). And she didn't show compassion and try to assist her dying opponent.

Also the bite that in the book knocked her out of commission entirely they gave to Sandor instead. In interviews Rory said the bite is why he lost, and Arya did call it out right before the fight. But that was never acknowledged.

No, she just accepts the praise while not admitting to the dishonorable acts. That's not honorable. And well, she's just not Brienne from the books at all. So yeah, that rang false.

[OldGimletEye]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Brienne has nothing to do with the character George wrote. She is basically a caricature of the character he created. A complete joke.

Well at least we agree on something. I can't even call showBrienne by her book name. So I call her Judge Dredd of Tarth. Same with other characters like Sandra and Larry.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I mean, clearly Doran's lack of action is what finally set Oberyn off, he decided he was sick of waiting and wated to stir things up.   Doran planted some seeds and was hoping to see if any of them bore fruit.  As Lord Verys said, he's not a mastermind consipirator and was never portrayed as such.