[Spoilers] E802 Discussion

[longest night]

10 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

The Dornish army is in Dorne, still waiting for the Sand snakes to arrive.

Were they even waiting for them to arrive? I mean for all we know, they had the delusions they were in control.

[Vaughn]

Apologies if this was covered elsewhere but the Walkers aren't a threat to Essos? So the Golden Company, etc... is just available to come over the sea to fight for money and everyone in Braavos can just hang out and do business as usual?

 

It's funny to do this massive world building and then seemingly act like one piece falling to the Walkers, who travel by foot, is the apocalypse. 

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, Vaughn said:

Apologies if this was covered elsewhere but the Walkers aren't a threat to Essos? So the Golden Company, etc... is just available to come over the sea to fight for money and everyone in Braavos can just hang out and do business as usual?

 

It's funny to do this massive world building and then seemingly act like one piece falling to the Walkers, who travel by foot, is the apocalypse. 

Who's to say the NK doesn't use his dragon(s) to fly across the narrow sea and do the same thing there?

[AndréaV]

On 4/22/2019 at 4:24 PM, Buckyball said:

 

I do think it's odd that Howland Reed hasn't been mentioned yet, since he is a still-living character who was a witness to what transpired at the Tower of Joy. In fact, as a Stark bannerman, he should already be at Winterfell along with everyone else.

I totally agree!! Howland Reed was supposed to be the one to confirm Jon's parentage (or maube even Meera), at least as a book reader it is what I was expecting.

I have a bet going with some friends of who will still appear in the next episodes and I have bet on Papa Reed, maybe I'm losing this one

[AndréaV]

On 4/22/2019 at 4:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

. But then - in the books there is an Isle of Faces and he interacted with and learned from the Green Men so he likely is more than just a plot device to dump information on people.

There is also a theory that book!Rocking is on the Isle of Faces, so maybe their stories are related somehow

[AndréaV]

On 4/22/2019 at 5:09 PM, MinscS2 said:

Bran can persuade her the same way he persuades everyone else about his omniscient powers: re-tell a quote that no one else but the person he needs to persuade (in this case, Daenerys) would know about.

In her case, he could quote her lasts words to Khal Drogo before she ended his torment. 

But can Bran see as far of as Essos? Doesn't he need a weirwood closeby to be able to see what happened? At least in the books I think his "powers" work like that, but if D&D would care about that

[Buckyball]

6 minutes ago, AndréaV said:

But can Bran see as far of as Essos? Doesn't he need a weirwood closeby to be able to see what happened? At least in the books I think his "powers" work like that, but if D&D would care about that

Check out this response to that topic: 

 

[AndréaV]

On 4/22/2019 at 5:30 PM, Ice Queen said:

Every tomb is guarded by an iron sword to keep them there.

But WW are not stopped by iron.... It is even worst because the dead will rise and will have a weapon at the ready

[AndréaV]

On 4/22/2019 at 6:53 PM, Ice Queen said:

You're conflating two concepts. I didn't say they could be used to kill wights or WW. I said it was used to keep the spirits of the dead in their places. Not the same thing at all. 

However, Old Nan tells us waaaay back that the Others hate iron, and an iron axe is the only thing left from their very first attack on the wildlings in the prologue. Additionally, the wights in the ice cells at the Wall are bound with iron chains. 

The swords keep the Starks from rising as wights or even as leaders ( if you think as I do that there are Others in the Stark family tree). 

 

 

 

Thanks for the quote! Didn't remember the iron thing in the prologue.

However, this is all from the books and D&D have long ago left the book behind. Don't believe this will come up, specially because the WW used an iron chain to hoist Viserion out of the water

[AndréaV]

On 4/22/2019 at 8:43 PM, dbunting said:

Sam-Edd-Jon on the wall was great, and now our watch begins. Would have been better if Ghost was between Sam and Jon getting some attention, or if maybe we saw Jon introduce Ghost to Dany but whatever.

I do think Ghost was added later in editing, after so many viewers complained he hadn't been in so many episodes

[AndréaV]

On 4/23/2019 at 12:11 AM, princess brittany said:

will jon be a Targ in the books? i am guessing he will be.

Yeah, he will. R+L=J has been hinted at in the first book, when Ned was imprisoned before being decapitated.

But, there are way more Targs in the books than in the show, so we don't know that the dinamic will be the same

[AndréaV]

11 hours ago, dbunting said:

Who's to say the NK doesn't use his dragon(s) to fly across the narrow sea and do the same thing there?

But will he??

This"apocalypse" narrative will only affect Westeros or was the last long night stopped early enough that the NK didn't have a chance to get to Essos?

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

15 hours ago, longest night said:

Were they even waiting for them to arrive? I mean for all we know, they had the delusions they were in control.

Who knows tbh. They really messed up the whole Dornish storyline in the show.

[longest night]

3 hours ago, AndréaV said:

But will he??

This"apocalypse" narrative will only affect Westeros or was the last long night stopped early enough that the NK didn't have a chance to get to Essos?

Yes, the Long Night was throughout the world. The seas freeze and there are similar legends from the far east of Essos including the Lion of Night and his demons in the far east.

Edited April 24, 2019 by longest night

[Red Dragon10]

5 hours ago, AndréaV said:

But WW are not stopped by iron.... It is even worst because the dead will rise and will have a weapon at the ready

I'm not sure what you mean.  No, WW aren't stopped by iron, but wights are.  If the dead were to rise in the crypt, they would be wights, not WW.  

[Roshufin]

I enjoyed the episode, it showed interesting interactions and it moved me at some points.

But there's something this series lack since some seasons ago, and I wanted to share it wih somebody :P. I refer to the scenes DEPTH, I remember those huge dialogues in which we could get to know every character motivation, every detail and feeling. Now I see that each and every dialogue scene lasts for less than five minutes... Jon learns his parentage in no time, he negates ir for a few seconds and... it's done, he accepts that and on the next episote he tells Danny again in a couple of minutes and she does the same thing. Before in the series, we traveled along with the characters during their crucial moments, we suffered and felt glad for them. There was DEPTH, because the show was working on that immersion. I remember those Council scenes, those interactions Hound-Arya, Arya-Tywin at Harrenhall, Jon-Igritte, and many more... Interactions that were developed due to the brilliant dialogues and the time and effort the scrip and the show wanted to commit in order to get a deeper knowledge and fusion with the characters and the whole story,

I don't know, I missed a scene with Jon, alone, trying to accept what he learned from Sam, some flashbacks about Ned saying he would tell him about his mother, about what he knew about Harrenhall Tournament, he realizing that Daenerys is a relative, some words he remembered from Maester Aemon speaking about the honor and the family when he wanted to leave the Watch when he was told Ned had been killed... 
An introspective and psychological scene with all these reminiscences would have been something great, moving and more logical, because nobody accepts something like that as easily. And a scene like that was something I missed a lot that would have improved the climax of the revelation a lot.

This is and example, but there are a lot more... And it's a pity the show didn't want to focus on that anymore. I know there is a lot to tell in 6 episodes, and that's way every scene is so short. But nobody forced HBO to end this series so quickly, and as I say, with some tiny amends, the internal logic of this last seasons would have improved a lot.

Anybody else feels this way? Anyone else felt like the fox watching the geese with those conversasion feints between Jorah and Lady Mormont, Jon and Arya, Danny and Jon, Jaime and Bran...?

[Red Dragon10]

11 minutes ago, Roshufin said:

Anybody else feels this way? Anyone else felt like the fox watching the geese with those conversasion feints between Jorah and Lady Mormont, Jon and Arya, Danny and Jon, Jaime and Bran...?

Absolutely, I feel this way.  The dialogue is such poor quality now.  Things that are supposed to be witty, aren't.  Things that are supposed to be moving, aren't (or at least they don't pack a punch like they used to).  And so on.  And besides it not being good quality dialogue, there also isn't enough of it.  HUGE things are rushed past.  I definitely fantasize a bit about how certain scenes could be done differently that would have (in my unprofessional opinion ha ha) improved things vastly.  Things that should have been lingered over and other things that should be cut entirely. 

It's such a shame that the quality of the show declined the last couple of seasons and that any 'high note' that the show achieves will likely be from spectacle and plot twists.  I'm very invested in the characters because of earlier seasons so I still enjoy watching and seeing interactions, but almost every scene falls partially flat.  I can see the potential there...they just don't follow through.  

[Ice Queen]

9 hours ago, AndréaV said:

Thanks for the quote! Didn't remember the iron thing in the prologue.

However, this is all from the books and D&D have long ago left the book behind. Don't believe this will come up, specially because the WW used an iron chain to hoist Viserion out of the water

I'm not entirely convinced they've actually read the books, and show only folks won't know the difference.

Unfortunately. 

I know for a fact that most people on this forum could have done a much better job of it. 

[Ice Queen]

9 hours ago, AndréaV said:

But WW are not stopped by iron.... It is even worst because the dead will rise and will have a weapon at the ready

It's not to stop the WW. It's to prevent the dead from rising as wights. 

[Dragons Are Real]

16 hours ago, Roshufin said:

Anybody else feels this way? Anyone else felt like the fox watching the geese with those conversasion feints between Jorah and Lady Mormont, Jon and Arya, Danny and Jon, Jaime and Bran...?

Absolutely.  And it's more than just the conversations and dialog.  The entire show for the last several seasons has been a headlong rush towards the end.  A trip that, by rights, should take several weeks, sometimes happens now multiple times in a single episode.  Big reveal moments that should have time are thrown at as as fast as possible, then swept away as unimportant because the reveal happened.  Interactions that should be complex and real, whether through conversation or even the little training scene in this weeks episode, are now just flash*bang*next and we're supposed to still see it as brilliant?

You are 100% correct.  There's no depth, and immersion is really difficult to maintain when it becomes clear to the viewer that the actors are just actors, not characters playing out real feeling lives before our eyes.  While the show had it's problems before, it was easy to get lost in it and truly believe these were real people doing and saying real things.  Once the Red Wedding passed, bit by bit that's been chipped away in favor of speed.

I really wish the original plan of ten seasons of thirteen episodes had been maintained.  If the Ds didn't want to continue at the correct pace to actually keep up the quality, perhaps HBO could have found someone that did want to?  Watching the sometimes brilliant, but always enjoyable first few seasons turn into this rushed hatchet job where character doesn't matter, scenes don't matter, and plot doesn't even need to stay consistent with itself scene to scene?  It's a sad and painful reminder of what we thought we were getting.

That said, at least in episode two they tried to recapture some small portion of that greatness, even if only for a brief moment at a time.  A couple of genuinely touching scenes is more than I expected, and the actors deserve huge kudos for making those scenes feel real enough to get lost in for those brief few moments they were allowed.