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Euron III Greyjoy

Jon faction VS Daenerys faction

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10 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

You're massively cherry-picking right now. 
"All my life I've known one goal: The Iron Throne. Taking it back from the people who destroyed my family and almost destroyed yours. My war, was against them. Until I met Jon. Now I'm here, half a world away, fighting Jon's war along side him. Tell me, who manipulated whom?"

Yes, Daenerys is clearly set up to be an evil tyrant... :rolleyes:
 



What a load of rubbish...

 

Are you seriously gonna use that quote as an argument? Daenerys was trying to manipulate Sansa. Daenerys' own words aren't the best indicator of her intentions.

In these two episodes she has threatened the lives of people trying to help her like Tyrion. Shown anger towards Sansa for wanting the North. Found joy in the people of Winterfell being scared of her dragons. Great displeasure in Jon telling her is the true heir and Sam makes the point that Jon gladly bent the knee to Dany, but will she when she finds out he s the true heir.

The quote you used is further proof that Daenerys is full of it. If she really loved him, why is she so upset that he is the rightful heir? Fighting his war? How is it Jons war? It is in her interest to be there, it is the living vs the dead.

 

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8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

You're massively cherry-picking right now. 
"All my life I've known one goal: The Iron Throne. Taking it back from the people who destroyed my family and almost destroyed yours. My war, was against them. Until I met Jon. Now I'm here, half a world away, fighting Jon's war along side him. Tell me, who manipulated whom?"

Yes, Daenerys is clearly set up to be an evil tyrant... :rolleyes:

Haha. Now who's cherry picking? It hasn't just been this season that she's more tyrant than hero, but last season also:

  • She burned the Tarly men alive when they wouldn't bend the knee. 
  • She forced John to bend the knee, refusing to see him as an equal because she sees it as her right to rule the entire seven kingdoms. She is going for absolute monarch with no election, and has used fear to force people to her way (the absolute definition of tyrant...)
  • She's continually blaming others around her for her decisions. Yes, they might be there to advise her but ultimately she's the decision maker. A tyrant blames others.
  • She enjoyed that her dragons scared the smallfolk
  • She used her dragons as a threat (i.e. they eat anything they want)

Yes, she might be fighting Jon's war, but she's not doing it for the good of her heart. She understands that a ruler needs people to rule. 

There is no doubt that she is walking the line between tyrant (like her father) and a good ruler... but at the moment she is swinging more towards tyrant. The next few episodes will be the deciding point. 

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1 minute ago, A Dance with Davos said:

 

Are you seriously gonna use that quote as an argument? Daenerys was trying to manipulate Sansa. Daenerys' own words aren't the best indicator of her intentions.

In these two episodes she has threatened the lives of people trying to help her like Tyrion. Shown anger towards Sansa for wanting the North. Found joy in the people of Winterfell being scared of her dragons. Great displeasure in Jon telling her is the true heir and Sam makes the point that Jon gladly bent the knee to Dany, but will she when she finds out he s the true heir.

The quote you used is further proof that Daenerys is full of it. If she really loved him, why is she so upset that he is the rightful heir? Fighting his war? How is it Jons war? It is in her interest to be there, it is the living vs the dead.

 

Jon didn't say I am the heir. He said his parents loved each other and they loved him. This is happy moment for Jon. Yes he banged his aunt but he finally know his past. He doesn't care about the throne. He was stressed all episode because of her. He needs to dump her. :P

 

1 minute ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

She forced John to bend the knee, refusing to see him as an equal because she sees it as her right to rule the entire seven kingdoms. She is going for absolute monarch with no election, and has used fear to force people to her way (the absolute definition of tyrant...)

Jon eventually bent the knee willingly. 

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Just now, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon eventually bent the knee willingly. 

Genuine question: do you think he would have done if she hadn't have forced the issue? Do you think he would have given up being "King of da Norf" on a whim...? 

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Just now, tinyskeeveuk said:

Genuine question: do you think he would have done if she hadn't have forced the issue? Do you think he would have given up being "King of da Norf" on a whim...? 

I thought that's what he did. After their battle beyond the wall, Dany told Jon she would fight for the North. She didn't ask him to bend the knee again or mention anything about it. And then he called her his queen. 

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6 minutes ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

Genuine question: do you think he would have done if she hadn't have forced the issue? Do you think he would have given up being "King of da Norf" on a whim...? 

I do not. It was important to her. And he want the alliance to work. I dont think he did it for love. 

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I don't think Daenerys will try to have Jon killed or anything like that. I mean, as far as she's concerned she cannot have children, so it would be pretty stupid to kill the only other Targaryen left in the world who can continue the bloodline. I think as far as initial reactions go, hers was pretty realistic. 

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Just now, Euron III Greyjoy said:

I don't think Daenerys will try to have Jon killed or anything like that. I mean, as far as she's concerned she cannot have children, so it would be pretty stupid to kill the only other Targaryen left in the world who can continue the bloodline. I think as far as initial reactions go, hers was pretty realistic. 

Jon is more useful to her alive than die.  If she wants a dynasty she needs an heir. He can do that for her. 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

Haha. Now who's cherry picking? It hasn't just been this season that she's more tyrant than hero, but last season also:

  • She burned the Tarly men alive when they wouldn't bend the knee.

Nice whitewash of Randall Tarly and his actions during S7.
 

Quote

She forced John to bend the knee


OK, after reading this I should just stop spending time on you because either you're deliberately lying or you're clueless. 
Instead I'm gonna humor you - do show me in what episode and scene where she forces Jon to bend the knee? 
 

Quote

She is going for absolute monarch with no election, and has used fear to force people to her way (the absolute definition of tyrant...)


"Absolute monarch with no election". You are aware that this is Westeros and not a modern democracy right?
 

Quote

She's continually blaming others around her for her decisions. Yes, they might be there to advise her but ultimately she's the decision maker. A tyrant blames others.


Tyrion is her hand, if he comes up with an idea, and it turns out to be a shit idea, it was still his idea, even if she went trough with it.
And I'm sure you don't have to be a tyrant in order to blame someone else. World would be full of tyrants in that case.
 

Quote

She enjoyed that her dragons scared the smallfolk


Debatable.
Some saw this as her enjoying watching her dragons intimidate the smallfolk.
Others saw her as mother being proud over her children/dragons inspiring awe and wonder
I'd say it's safe to assume that it boils down to ones personal opinion about Daenerys.


The fact that people are torn on what this scene meant means it was a good scene.
 

Quote

She used her dragons as a threat (i.e. they eat anything they want)


A perfectly fine answer to a pretty dumb question is not a threat. 

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

Genuine question: do you think he would have done if she hadn't have forced the issue? Do you think he would have given up being "King of da Norf" on a whim...? 

He bent the knee when she wasn't forcing the issue, that's the whole point. 

And Jon never wanted to be "King of da Norf".

Sometimes I wonder if people are watching the same show...

Edited by MinscS2

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3 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon is more useful to her alive than die.  If she wants a dynasty she needs an heir. He can do that for her. 

It's funny though that Daenerys herself is convinced that she can't have children, yet she doesn't make any plans to who will once be her successor. Did anyone ever question her about this?

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Just now, Deminelle said:

It's funny though that Daenerys herself is convinced that she can't have children, yet she doesn't make any plans to who will once be her successor. Did anyone ever question her about this?

Tyrion tried to discuss it with her last season but she got all defensive and guarded and refused to discuss it until after the war. Which is obviously not a great plan because people die in wars...

 

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14 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Nice whitewash of Randall Tarly and his actions during S7.
 


OK, after reading this I should just stop spending time on you because either you're deliberately lying or you're clueless. 
Instead I'm gonna humor you - do show me in what episode and scene where she forces Jon to bend the knee? 
 


"Absolute monarch with no election". You are aware that this is Westeros and not a modern democracy right?
 


Tyrion is her hand, if he comes up with an idea, and it turns out to be a shit idea, it was still his idea, even if she went trough with it.
And I'm sure you don't have to be a tyrant in order to blame someone else. World would be full of tyrants in that case.
 


Debatable.
Some saw this as her enjoying watching her dragons intimidate the smallfolk.
Others saw her as mother being proud over her children/dragons inspiring awe and wonder
I'd say it's safe to assume that it boils down to ones personal opinion about Daenerys.


The fact that people are torn on what this scene meant means it was a good scene.
 


A perfectly fine answer to a pretty dumb question is not a threat. 

 

You seem fairly bias towards Daenerys. A lot of characters have shown doubt in Daenerys this season already. Like Jaime asking Tyrion if he was sure she wasn't like her father. Writers don't put questions like that in the script for no reason.

Sansa asking what the dragons eat isn't a dumb question. They are low on food and they need to know how to feed them. The intention of Daenerys' reply was to threaten Sansa.

In regards to Daenerys being happy with her dragons? They've been fully grown for seasons now. If they wanted to portray her delight in them, they wouldn't have done it immediately after they intimidate the people she wants to rule.

Then with her response to Tyrion. She is the one in charge. A good leader takes responsibility. The fact that she gets so mad about him making a mistake proves that she must view herself as infallible.

Ultimately a lot of her actions so far this season seem to be pointing to her being an awful leader and just like her father. Passive aggressive threats with her dragons, delight in people being scared and showing no understanding of people making mistakes. Contrast these traits with Jon who is being portrayed as the perfect leader.

 

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

You're massively cherry-picking right now. 
"All my life I've known one goal: The Iron Throne. Taking it back from the people who destroyed my family and almost destroyed yours. My war, was against them. Until I met Jon. Now I'm here, half a world away, fighting Jon's war along side him. Tell me, who manipulated whom?"

To just play devil's advocate, she then hears from Jon hours later about his parents and her first thought goes to his claim on the Iron Throne over hers. We will see if she is a tyrant or not, only time will tell. But she obviously cares more about the throne than anything else. And if she has to pick between love and the throne, right now (and it could definitely change) it's the throne.

I honestly believe she told that story to Sansa to try to get her on her side, especially with how things ended between them in that scene.

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Just now, btfu806 said:

I honestly believe she told that story to Sansa to try to get her on her side, especially with how things ended between them in that scene.

That's my idea, too, at the moment. She very swiftly took her hand away from Sansa's hand, when she noticed Sansa didn't completely melt.

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35 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon is more useful to her alive than die.  If she wants a dynasty she needs an heir. He can do that for her. 

I dunno. From this Episode I got the sense Dany wouldn't even like being Queen Regent. Because if she had an heir that's what she would be. Jon would be king, their kid would be next in line. She'd be like...last and have to wield power through others. Doesn't seem like her.

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Just now, Deminelle said:

That's my idea, too, at the moment. She very swiftly took her hand away from Sansa's hand, when she noticed Sansa didn't completely melt.

To give Dany credit, she is trying to play the Game of Thrones. She is just going against people that have a lot more experience at it right now...

It's why I also think Dany will fallback on her military strength/dragons. This is why I could see her going the tyrant route. Doesn't mean she will, but I could see it happening.

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23 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Nice whitewash of Randall Tarly and his actions during S7.
 


OK, after reading this I should just stop spending time on you because either you're deliberately lying or you're clueless. 
Instead I'm gonna humor you - do show me in what episode and scene where she forces Jon to bend the knee? 
 


"Absolute monarch with no election". You are aware that this is Westeros and not a modern democracy right?
 


Tyrion is her hand, if he comes up with an idea, and it turns out to be a shit idea, it was still his idea, even if she went trough with it.
And I'm sure you don't have to be a tyrant in order to blame someone else. World would be full of tyrants in that case.
 


Debatable.
Some saw this as her enjoying watching her dragons intimidate the smallfolk.
Others saw her as mother being proud over her children/dragons inspiring awe and wonder
I'd say it's safe to assume that it boils down to ones personal opinion about Daenerys.


The fact that people are torn on what this scene meant means it was a good scene.
 


A perfectly fine answer to a pretty dumb question is not a threat. 

People like you are the epitome of what is wrong with internet. Instead of having an amicable debate about a difference of opinions, you decide to be rude, smug, and really stand-offish. 

Point one: I don't like Tarly. I'm not whitewashing his actions. I'm saying that burning people alive when they disobey an action--with no trial, no other approach to the situation--is the epitome of a tyrant. This isn't just consequences of actions, this is revenge. 

Point two: Rude. Again. There's no need. Take a look at your life if you think this is the way to interact with people wanting to have a discussion. As to the point, I don't believe--and you haven't shown me a single example--of Jon willingly bending the knee. I don't think for one second he went to DS to hand power to Dany on whim. He had no choice. She was holding him captive. Just because she didn't ask at the exact moment, doesn't mean it wasn't capitulation. He knew the only way to get her on board was to bend the knee. For me, the whole point of that scene was to demonstrate the difference between the two rulers: one who *just* wants to rule and one who wants to save the people. 

Point Three: Yes, I'm completely aware. But for someone who wanted to "break the wheel" and be different to other rulers, she's doing a good job of imitating the worst one so far... the tyrannical one. 

Point four. It doesn't matter if it's his idea or not. She has to sign off on it. That's the point of a ruler. She can always over rule him. She didn't... and then blamed him when it went wrong. 

Point five. Agreed, it's a matter of opinion. To me, she's enjoying it. And it's further proof of her becoming a tyrant. 

 

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Re: Dany and Tyranny. For those who are willing to entertain the idea, you might appreciate my post comparing "On Tyranny" from Plato's Republic to Dany's arc. There are some striking similarities. 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Re: Dany and Tyranny. For those who are willing to entertain the idea, you might appreciate my post comparing "On Tyranny" from Plato's Republic to Dany's arc. There are some striking similarities. 

What an interesting read. Thanks for sharing. 

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