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D-Shiznit

"F*** Tradition" - Breaking Patriarchy

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One of the reviews I saw pointed out that the Brienne being knighted scene was a key moment in the show, and how its characters chose to break their misogynist and patriarchal traditions by Knighting Brienne. It was no coincidence that it was followed by Dany referring to Jon as the "male heir", further hinting at the fact that just because Westeros has been a male dominated society, where women and women rights are subservient to male and male rights, doesn't mean that characters will just accept that because that's the way it has always been. Also foreshadowed by the Sansa and Dany conversation where they admitted the challenges of convincing men to accept being ruled by a woman.

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I just thought that it was beautiful for the characters to realize that with the end so near rules no longer matter. That their last night in the world should be spent giving each other joy and happiness and fulfillment because they might never get the chance to achieve that. Hence Brienne’s allowing Pod some wine, Tyrion recounting the victories of Davos, Tormund recounting his giant adventure. To me it was about appreciating and honoring each other and helping Brienne to something that’ll make her last day on earth something she always wanted.

it Was a well written ending for Brienne her character’s arc ran a full circle. She started out as trying to fight her way into knighthood in Renly’s court and despising Jaime and now she was knighted by Jaime. It was all very beautiful on a personal and on a group level as well.  

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7 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

I just thought that it was beautiful for the characters to realize that with the end so near rules no longer matter.

I appreciated that, too.  In the face of death they realise what is important and what not.

7 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

That their last night in the world should be spent giving each other joy and happiness and fulfillment because they might never get the chance to achieve that. Hence Brienne’s allowing Pod some wine, Tyrion recounting the victories of Davos, Tormund recounting his giant adventure. To me it was about appreciating and honoring each other and helping Brienne to something that’ll make her last day on earth something she always wanted.

Agreed. Full of emotion, a very nice scene, not rushed. Somehow a farewell scene, unfortunately.

8 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Was a well written ending for Brienne her character’s arc ran a full circle.

Yes, wonderful arc.

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People can read politics and modern feminism and stuff into it I guess - but it's not like Brienne didn't earn the right to be knighted, or Sansa hasn't endured her way into a position of political power, in the universe of the show. Dany, on the other hand, just hatched some dragons and gets to make her own rules up as she goes along - so I hope it comes apart for her before all is done, as I don't think the narrative has showed her earning anything. Even (in some ways) Cersie has earned the power she has amassed.

Also, it wasn't out of character for Tormund to be pro Briennes knighting as Freefolk don't really have rules and he wants to impress her - so it all made sense in the context of the universe to me, without any political pandering.

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1 minute ago, ummester said:

People can read politics and modern feminism and stuff into it I guess

Yes, I don't like this nice story too be abused politically.

1 minute ago, ummester said:

it's not like Brienne didn't earn the right to be knighted, or Sansa hasn't endured her way into a position of political power,

Exactly. 

Make it about individual achievements and not about politics. This would be the best approach in the real world, too.

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1 minute ago, ummester said:

Also, it wasn't out of character for Tormund to be pro Briennes knighting as Freefolk don't really have rules and he wants to impress her - so it all made sense in the context of the universe to me, without any political pandering.

:agree: :bowdown:

4 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I appreciated that, too.  In the face of death they realise what is important and what not.

Agreed. Full of emotion, a very nice scene, not rushed. Somehow a farewell scene, unfortunately.

Yes, wonderful arc.

It was mostly likely a farewell scene but for that it was beautiful and we all know Brienne has to go. It was probably the most beautiful way to part with a character they could have written at this point. 

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2 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

It was mostly likely a farewell scene but for that it was beautiful and we all know Brienne has to go. It was probably the most beautiful way to part with a character they could have written at this point. 

I agree.

Still I hope that all our predictions who has to go will not come true and some surprises will be there.

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9 hours ago, D-Shiznit said:

It was no coincidence that it was followed by Dany referring to Jon as the "male heir", further hinting at the fact that just because Westeros has been a male dominated society, where women and women rights are subservient to male and male rights

That's true but the problem is that no matter if Jon is or isn't male, he still has a better claim to the throne than Dany has (so calling Jon "male heir" was unncessary). If there wasn't Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar would become the king, Jon would be the crown prince and eventually the king and Dany would be "just" his aunt.

2 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

 It was mostly likely a farewell scene but for that it was beautiful and we all know Brienne has to go. It was probably the most beautiful way to part with a character they could have written at this point. 

I didn't like the scene much tbh but if it is seen as a goodbye scene, then it was pretty good. I still think that Brienne will survive though. My original theory from the books is that Jaime and Brienne fall in love (check), they have sex and Brienne gets pregnant, Jaime dies but Brienne and her child survive. It still can happen so I'm not losing hope. :)

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I think I also have the issue of reading current political trends in everything done today. But I think it was supposed to be one of those "win for the good guys" scenes and not a political statement.

Brianne is a fan-favorite, she has been a good person this show (except for killing Stannis, but I am biased) and this was a winning moment for the good guys I think. It could be setting her up for her death, who knows. But I really thought this was one of the better scenes from this season and last and I have been very critical of the show in the most recent seasons.

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Dany saying "you're the last male heir" annoyed me. Even in Dorne his claim would still be above hers, cause it's about children vs siblings more than males vs females, but the writers really want to take it that way.

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Posted (edited)

I know the show was going for full blown emotional impact but after everyone clapped and Brienne got to give her beaming smile I wish Tormund had been like, "Do me do me next" and just took the knee in front of Jamie, end scene lol

Edited by Ser Four of Twenty

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7 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Dany saying "you're the last male heir" annoyed me. Even in Dorne his claim would still be above hers, cause it's about children vs siblings more than males vs females, but the writers really want to take it that way.

 

7 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Dany saying "you're the last male heir" annoyed me. Even in Dorne his claim would still be above hers, cause it's about children vs siblings more than males vs females, but the writers really want to take it that way.

In reality, Dany still has an excellent claim.  She's the daughter, and sole surviving child, of Aerys II, and sister and heir to Viserys III (as Targaryen loyalists would see him.). Jon's father was never the King.  In a medieval society, the potential dispute would be solved by their marrying (any children would have an undisputed claim) or (if Dany were barren) her becoming Queen, and making Jon her heir, so that he could marry, and continue the line. 

In this case, I expect the North will want its own King or Queen.  Medieval lawyers were experts at finessing these issues (eg, technically, the King of Naples was the vassal of the Pope, but in reality, he was a sovereign Prince) but I doubt if D & D will approach it like that.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Four of Twenty said:

I know the show was going for full blown emotional impact but after everyone clapped and Brienne got to give her beaming smile I wish Tormund had been like, "Do me do me next" and just took the knee in front of Jamie, end scene lol

I personally expected Pod to get a knighthood, too

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9 hours ago, D-Shiznit said:

One of the reviews I saw pointed out that the Brienne being knighted scene was a key moment in the show, and how its characters chose to break their misogynist and patriarchal traditions by Knighting Brienne. It was no coincidence that it was followed by Dany referring to Jon as the "male heir", further hinting at the fact that just because Westeros has been a male dominated society, where women and women rights are subservient to male and male rights, doesn't mean that characters will just accept that because that's the way it has always been. Also foreshadowed by the Sansa and Dany conversation where they admitted the challenges of convincing men to accept being ruled by a woman.

In real life, female chivalric orders were not that unusual.

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5 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I personally expected Pod to get a knighthood, too

You get a knighthood! You get a knighthood!

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5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In reality, Dany still has an excellent claim.  She's the daughter, and sole surviving child, of Aerys II, and sister and heir to Viserys III (as Targaryen loyalists would see him.). Jon's father was never the King.

No, not an "excellent" claim. There are systems in which she would have some claim, but they were not the dominant forms seen in Western Europe.  Even discounting the gender, “siblings before children” is agnatic seniority, and we don't see that much in Western Europe.

The idea that Jon wouldn't count because Rhaegar was never king is even rarer; that's called porphyrogeniture meaning “born to the purple”. As far as I know, it was never followed in Westeros, so there is no precedent there for it. That would be like saying that if Charles, the Prince of Wales and thus the heir apparent to Elizabeth II, were to die before his mother the Queen, that one of his siblings rather than one of his children should become the heir apparent. That’s not an excellent claim; it's a weak one, at least in Westeros and Europe.

Wherever the concept of birthright inheritance exists, some ostensibly formal legal framework determines the order of succession. Westeros mostly follows male-preference primogeniture, meaning that the eldest trueborn male child inherits the title and lands of the father.  Dorne follows absolute primogeniture in which there is no sex bias whatsoever.

Some historical variants, such as Salic Law seen in Continental Europe but not England, completely forbade consideration of the female line such that not only could there never be a queen regnant, no king could come to power whose claim was through the female line alone. England did not follow this.

 

 

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I felt like Brienne being knighted wasn't the greatest of moments.

With the forces of death on their way to annihilate anyone that draws breath the  point has been made that titles and bloodlines just aren't the most important of thing to be focusing on. It is all about the living vs the dead.  I feel like a better conclusion to Briennes arc would have been to acknowledge the fact that she is more of a knight than any actual knight. I mean isn't that the entire point of her character? It isn't about literally being knighted, but the values that you uphold.

With the episode starting with Brienned defending Jaime. I feel like it ending with Jaime telling Brienne she is the the true embodiment of a knight would've been far more emotional and fulfilling.

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How much "patriarchy breaking" do we still need in the show? 90% of the leaders are women.

Mostly the scene of Brienne being knighted was the culmination of what it means to be a knight: the psychical, moral, and spiritual aspects of it.

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As a sign to patriarchy it would have had actually much more meaning if Dany as a woman herself would have done that - as a queen regnant she could have done that, too, or simply taken the power to do it. It could also have been done by the instigation of Sansa or in a more public venue - doing it along with drinking men makes it more than a travesty than a great event - sort of like a Las Vegas wedding you try to forget the next day.

Still, on a personal level it is a nice scene, although all the nice buildup and bonding between Brienne and Jaime is long since gone.

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