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Sansa -- "What of the North??"


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Who is Sansa to say the North won't bend the knee?  

Now, when it's commonly known that Jon is actually ATarg, she'll have standing to say such things, but at the time she said this to Dany she didn't know that and was essentially, without authority, undercutting him (who had already bent the knee on behalf of The North) and potentially damaging the alliance (in theory Dany could've taken her ball and gone home).

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Because she understands them better than Jon. Which is quite the irony.

Even Robb knew that surrendering the crown is not the option, once the lords have named him a King in the North. Jon bent the knee because of love, we all know that (Dany accepted to defend the North before Jon decided to bend the knee). Jon essentially ignored why people have chosen him KitN. It wasn't just because of Battle of the Bastards, or because he is Ned Stark's bastard. They saw a chance of breaking the connection with King's Landing, a connection that cost them a lot in the past 20 years. Aerys, Joffrey, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay... They didn't hurt just the Starks. There isn't a Northern family that hasn't bled during Robert's rebellion or Red Wedding. 

So, Sansa gets that. And that is why, as Lady of Winterfell, she is ready to defend North from outsiders. Dany, for all purposes, is an outsider. An outsider, who, yes, came to defend North but knows so little. 

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It's no commonly known yet. Only Sam, Bran, Jon and now Dany know. 

Sansa makes a valid question about North. Dany had plans to proceed with conquering the throne when the dead army has been defeated. What about North then?

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2 hours ago, Risto said:

Jon bent the knee because of love, we all know that

Right. It was not necessary anymore. Daenerys had pledged herself for the fight already.

2 hours ago, Risto said:

Even Robb knew that surrendering the crown is not the option, once the lords have named him a King in the North.

Right. It was a stupid mistake of Jon to bend the knee. He should have brought her as ally, not as his queen.

3 hours ago, shawnpmcd said:

Who is Sansa to say the North won't bend the knee?  

It was the perfect moment to do so. This is a good strategy and good writing after all. Daenerys come to have a talk, both get closer and Daenerys talks about taking the Iron throne. Sansa gives her that -- not fighting for the Iron throne, making peace, accepting Daenerys will sit the throne... but then Sansa takes the opportunity to claim the North. They fight side by side, they can share the victory, six Kingdoms and the North... I liked the move of Sansa this time. And I am not a Sansa fan.

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Dany was wondering why there was a rift between her and Sansa, well that is the reason.  Sansa might come to like and respect Daenerys as a person and queen, but she can't accept her as her queen.  Partly because the north will never accept Dany as their queen.  Sansa wants her to know this, and if possible pave the way for the north to retain its independence at the end.

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48 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Right. It was not necessary anymore. Daenerys had pledged herself for the fight already.

These episodes make it clear she'd still be pressuring Jon to bend the knee and every time that would come up, it would be a threat. She wants the North in her pocket and the respect that comes with the title. I think Jon saw how it would play out.

3 hours ago, Risto said:

Because she understands them better than Jon. Which is quite the irony.

I disagree, he warned her they would not accept her so he definitely knew how they would react. He just underestimated his own charisma. He thought Glover pledged to House Stark, but it was himself they pledged to, as Sansa reminds him. Jon underestimates himself and why people follow him. Its his bastard complex. I think he understands the North just fine and would support independence in any other context. 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon underestimates himself and why people follow him.

I agree with this assessment. Jon has no political skills. 

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He thought Glover pledged to House Stark, but it was himself they pledged to, as Sansa reminds him.

True.

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

These episodes make it clear she'd still be pressuring Jon to bend the knee and every time that would comes up, it would be a threat. She wants the North in her pocket and the respect that comes with the title. I think Jon saw how it would play out.

Yes, Daenerys would probably. On the other hand, the two lovers could have made a deal to first firth the Great War. Daenerys already agreed. 

I don't believe Jon thinks that much. I used his dick more than his brain for this decision.

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

These episodes make it clear she'd still be pressuring Jon to bend the knee and every time that would come up, it would be a threat. She wants the North in her pocket and the respect that comes with the title. I think Jon saw how it would play out.

I disagree, he warned her they would not accept her so he definitely knew how they would react. He just underestimated his own charisma. He thought Glover pledged to House Stark, but it was himself they pledged to, as Sansa reminds him. Jon underestimates himself and why people follow him. Its his bastard complex. I think he understands the North just fine and would support independence in any other context. 

It makes sense the pledge was to Jon. As a bastard he’s not officially a member of House Stark. Jon knows the North that’s why he resisted at first. I think he bent the knee because she proved herself to him with her hero move with the dragons. 

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5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I don't believe Jon thinks that much. I used his dick more than his brain for this decision.

But he was smart enough to lie to the Northern lords to give them a convincing cover for his love of Dany? Make it make sense.

He'd have to fuck up and get rewarded while his brother fucked up in the same way and got killed. This is coming closer to GRRM's ending now and I think Jon did make a serious sacrifice for his people, which means from Dany's POV it may have looked like love but Jon had different motives. 

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

But he was smart enough to lie to the Northern lords to give them a convincing cover for his love of Dany?

Well, do you think people doing wrong because they are infatuated really always know what they are doing? Certainly not!

Most probably Jon felt it to be the right thing in the moment. 

He is not directly lying to the Northern Lords, but simply stating the facts and omitting the love issue. He brought powerful allies. That's true.

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9 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, do you think people doing wrong because they are infatuated really always know what they are doing? Certainly not!

Most probably Jon felt it to be the right thing in the moment. 

He is not directly lying to the Northern Lords, but simply stating the facts and omitting the love issue. He brought powerful allies. That's true.

If he's a lovesick fool thinking with his dick he's suddenly smart enough to lie by sin of omission before everyone? I just cant believe that. Either he's acting for the North, or for love of Dany. No character gets to do both.

He told them he had a choice, protect the North or keep his crown. Sam says he bent the knee to save his people. I think thats D&D telling the audience what really happened. 

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

smart enough to lie by sin of omission before everyone?

Yes, I see that regularly in real life. Infatuated people not acting smart at all, but being smart enough to cover their ass. I would even dare say, almost 100% of infatuated young people do exactly that. Lying to parents or siblings or partners they cheat on. 

That's real life.

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If he's a lovesick fool thinking with his dick he's suddenly smart enough to lie by sin of omission before everyone? I just cant believe that. Either he's acting out of duty to the North, or for love. No character gets to do both.

He told them he had a choice, protect the North or keep his crown. Sam says he bent the knee to save his people. I think thats D&D telling the audience what really happened. 

I did not view kneeling after his adventure north of the wall as an act of love. He did it to save his people. They weren’t in love yet. 

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, I see that regularly in real life. Infatuated people not acting smart at all, but being smart enough to cover their ass. I would even dare say, almost 100% of infatuated young people do exactly that. Lying to parents or siblings or partners they cheat on. 

That's real life.

Look if Jon was infatuated he would tell them how great Dany is. He didn't. This really doesn't sound like Jon Snow's character who is his father's son -- who also didnt think with his dick. 

If he's infatuated, he should fail. Sansa should make sure this dumbass makes no more important decisions for the North because thats just idiotic. 

And yet Sansa still trusts him to do right by the North. Wow he even has Sansa fooled too? 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And yet Sansa still trusts him to do right by the North. Wow he even has Sansa fooled too? 

Sansa explicitly talked about him being in love and that this might have clouded his mind. 

The two of us have an entirely diffrent take of the show. We won't agree on much, unfortunately.

Infatuation is not black-and-white. Not all or nothing. He bend the knee in the cozy bed scene, that doesn't mean he sometime thinks anyway. My goodness.

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Look if Jon was infatuated he would tell them how great Dany is. He didn't. This really doesn't sound like Jon Snow's character who is his father's son -- who also didnt think with his dick. 

If he's infatuated, he should fail. Sansa should make sure this dumbass makes no more important decisions for the North because thats just idiotic. 

And yet Sansa still trusts him to do right by the North. Wow he even has Sansa fooled too? 

Sansa and Jon are working on their partnership. She does have faith in him. At least that’s what she says. That was the whole point of the Arya/Jon and Jon/Sansa scenes for episode 1. The Stark children are good. They are just rebuilding their relationships and it’s going to have bumps in the road. 

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I think part of bending the knee was for love part of it being sorry that her "child" died saving him, and part to save the north. I know a lot of people say he just did it for love but lets not forget his first true love, Ygritte. He truly loved her and she wanted to stay in the save with him. He could have ran off with her but he left his love to do what's best for his brothers.

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