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Sansa -- "What of the North??"


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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Sansa explicitly talked about him being in love and that this might have clouded his mind. 

The two of us have an entirely diffrent take of the show. We won't agree on much, unfortunately.

Infatuation is not black-and-white. Not all or nothing. He bend the knee in the cozy bed scene, that doesn't mean he sometime thinks anyway. My goodness.

I wouldn't take Littlefinger's Protege's words at face value when talking to an opponent. Sansa was toying with Dany through that whole scene. She assumed the worst (Jon is manipulated) and found out it wasn't true (Dany was). Hence, her smile.

I wish you would stop using the word infatuation when Jon hasnt even said anything about his feelings about her, from his own mouth.

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Guys, I’m not questioning the logic of her position on the issue(in fact I largely agree), I’m questioning her authority to undercut Jon, whose decision it was to make.

 

also, for all those people who say Jon lacks strategy, picking this fight right before the NK comes and risking Dany bolting with her armies and dragons was not smart.  (Mind you we know with 4 eps left she won’t retreat, but still) 

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1 hour ago, shawnpmcd said:

picking this fight right before the NK comes and risking Dany bolting with her armies and dragons was not smart.

Jon didn't pick a fight. Dany looked for him and found him in front of Lyanna's statue. They talked a bit and he somehow had to reveal to truth. That's how Jon is. 

Yes, it would have been a lot wiser to shut up. It would not have been Jon, though.

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I think it makes sense that Sansa is concerned about Northern independence. Out of all the current living Starks, she's the one who bled for it the most. Back in King's Landing when she was a hostage and beaten for every one of her brother's victories, when she married Ramsay to try...honestly I'm not sure what she was trying to do but I chok up the entire season 5 to shit writing so, to the battle of the bastards and regaining Winterfell, to running it when Jon's gone, etc.

 

It makes sense to me that Sansa is the one character out of the Starks who is truly understanding what Northern Independence means not just to her, but to the Northerners. They will never bow down to Dany. 

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I don't mind Sansa worrying about northern independence, but once again, her timing is impeccably bad.

She was about to bond (somewhat) with Daenerys.
She must've noticed that Daenerys was making an effort here to make some sort of peace. 
Why in the seven hells would she push her luck then and there? Take this conversation after the battle, it's pointless to do it if either or both of you are dead within a week anyway, it will just (as it did) lead to distrust.

As for Sansa even pushing the claim of an independent north...
Who is she to do that?

Yepp, Sansa is one of the smartest persons on the show alright. :lmao:

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7 minutes ago, Pandean said:

when she married Ramsay to try...honestly I'm not sure what she was trying to do

This was the last time she fell for the lies of Baelish. He made her believe she could somehow have a safe life in Winterfell on the side of Ramsay. 

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

This was the last time she fell for the lies of Baelish. He made her believe she could somehow have a safe life in Winterfell on the side of Ramsay. 

I thought it was to get revenge on the inside and take over WInterfell or....something.

IDK I try not to think of the fifth season.

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I know this wasn't the original topic (Sansa's right to negotiate the North's independence), but it made me think back to season 6, when Yara asked Dany for independence for the Iron Islands and Dany granted it (albeit with provisions that rendered it a watered down version of independence). Tyrion mentioned that others might want their independence too and Dany said they are free to ask for it as well. Yet now Dany seems to view such a request as completely unreasonable and does not appear to even want to consider it. Is it because Yara had something to offer her in return at the time? Or because the North is such a big part of the seven kingdoms compared to the iron islands? Or is Dany changing in her approach as a ruler?

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2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I thought it was to get revenge on the inside and take over WInterfell or....something.

No, the later is angry with Baelish to have sold her to Ramsay. She was not aware of the threat from Ramsay when agreeing to marry him.

from 1:10

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1 minute ago, a girl knows nothing said:

I know this wasn't the original topic (Sansa's right to negotiate the North's independence), but it made me think back to season 6, when Yara asked Dany for independence for the Iron Islands and Dany granted it (albeit with provisions that rendered it a watered down version of independence). Tyrion mentioned that others might want their independence too and Dany said they are free to ask for it as well. Yet now Dany seems to view such a request as completely unreasonable and does not appear to even want to consider it. Is it because Yara had something to offer her in return at the time? Or because the North is such a big part of the seven kingdoms compared to the iron islands? Or is Dany changing in her approach as a ruler?

I think, sadly, that the "best" explanation for this is inconsistent writing, and that the writers forgot about this. 

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9 hours ago, Risto said:

Because she understands them better than Jon. Which is quite the irony.

Even Robb knew that surrendering the crown is not the option, once the lords have named him a King in the North. Jon bent the knee because of love, we all know that (Dany accepted to defend the North before Jon decided to bend the knee). Jon essentially ignored why people have chosen him KitN. It wasn't just because of Battle of the Bastards, or because he is Ned Stark's bastard. They saw a chance of breaking the connection with King's Landing, a connection that cost them a lot in the past 20 years. Aerys, Joffrey, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay... They didn't hurt just the Starks. There isn't a Northern family that hasn't bled during Robert's rebellion or Red Wedding. 

So, Sansa gets that. And that is why, as Lady of Winterfell, she is ready to defend North from outsiders. Dany, for all purposes, is an outsider. An outsider, who, yes, came to defend North but knows so little. 

Actually, the whole North cessation thing started with Geatjon Umber’s speech of it’s the dragons we married... the dragons are all dead. Considering now that there are large live dragons flying above Winterfell, it’s sort of dumb for Sansa (who became the smartest woman offscreen) to oppose a known ruthless ruler who has two dragons and is shown to have no qualms about burning opponents. Torrhen Stark knelt because he didn’t want to see the massacre of thousands of his people. A smart Sansa would use Dany’s dragons and armies to fight the dead and hope the dragons and armies will be dead or sufficiently neutralized after the battle with the dead, and then bring up the subject of the North’s independence.  But of course, then the showrunners will not be able to get their faux drama and tension.

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Jon didn't pick a fight. Dany looked for him and found him in front of Lyanna's statue. They talked a bit and he somehow had to reveal to truth. That's how Jon is. 

Yes, it would have been a lot wiser to shut up. It would not have been Jon, though.

Sorry,  I'm saying SANSA picking this fight.  Not Jon's crypt discussion.

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1 minute ago, shawnpmcd said:

Sorry,  I'm saying SANSA picking this fight.  Not Jon's crypt discussion.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Well, Sansa and Daenerys hat a good talk there. Daenerys wanted to know why they appear to be "at odds". Sansa told her. The North doesn't want to bow. 

Tough Sansa. Maybe not perfectly diplomatically here, but she's right to mention it. Daenerys "converted" Jon, but surely not the whole North. She has to know the truth.

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Well, Sansa and Daenerys hat a good talk there. Daenerys wanted to know why they appear to be "at odds". Sansa told her. The North doesn't want to bow. 

Tough Sansa. Maybe not perfectly diplomatically here, but she's right to mention it. Daenerys "converted" Jon, but surely not the whole North. She has to know the truth.

My point in the thread is while it might be a good point, it's not hers to make.  Jon was King and bent the knee.  She doesn't have the authority (though,ironically she does but doesn't know it yet).  She's basically saying yeah our King knelt and yeah I'm not the leader but I speak for all and we won't kneel.  Some might say treason.  


Again, not arguing the merits of her POV,  but on what authority does she think she's speaking/undercutting Jon.

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5 minutes ago, shawnpmcd said:

Again, not arguing the merits of her POV,  but on what authority does she think she's speaking/undercutting Jon.

Since she returned to Winterfell, she has remained there permanently whereas Jon has stayed only infrequently. She has accurately gauged the mood of the Northern clans and understands that they feel that she's on their side more than Jon is. Authority is what people give to a leader and on that basis, she does speak for The North. That kind of came out in Jamie's trial where the audience seemed to feel comfortable with her taking the lead and Jon saying nothing. That's not to say she's necessarily right.

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9 minutes ago, shawnpmcd said:

Some might say treason.

Some might do so. So what?

Sansa phrases it carefully and talks about what she knows the Northern feel.

Personally, she bowed to Daenerys, "Winterfell is yours". That's why it is no actual treason.

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Technically, Aegon Targaryen has no claim on the North.  Thus, it would fall to Bran, who abdicated, and that then leaves Sansa, a trueborn Stark and heir to Winterfell, and heir to be Queen in the North as well.  Since Jon already bent the knee, as baby Mormont pointed out, he's just a guy now, and as Rhaegar's legitimate son, he is heir to the Iron Throne and Dragonstone, but not Winterfell or the North.  

Of course, the show doesn't tell us what if anything Sansa knows about Jon's parents at this point.

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Some might do so. So what?

Sansa phrases it carefully and talks about what she knows the Northern feel.

Personally, she bowed to Daenerys, "Winterfell is yours". That's why it is no actual treason.

I was more talking treason vis-a-vis Jon, not Dany's POV.  Bottom line, she's negotiating something that he has already agreed to.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Technically, Aegon Targaryen has no claim on the North.  Thus, it would fall to Bran, who abdicated, and that then leaves Sansa, a trueborn Stark and heir to Winterfell, and heir to be Queen in the North as well.  Since Jon already bent the knee, as baby Mormont pointed out, he's just a guy now, and as Rhaegar's legitimate son, he is heir to the Iron Throne and Dragonstone, but not Winterfell or the North.  

Of course, the show doesn't tell us what if anything Sansa knows about Jon's parents at this point.

yes,  but no one (least of all Sansa) knows that yet.

 

Jon didn't bend the knee for himself, he bent it for the North.  That doesn't mean that Sansa is ahead of him now or he's "just a guy".  Also Dany refers to him as the Warden of the North.

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I like how Sansa doesn't let Dany fool her. Dany tries to convince Sansa that she only joined them because she loves Jon. At the table Dany tries to appeal to Sansa's emotions and manipulate her. Sansa is clever though not to fall for it. 

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