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This battle should be pure chaos since the dead fight like that, in swarms. The dragons have no reason whatsoever to be on the ground where they can get overwhelmed by the hundreds of thousands of dead, they need to stay airborne. 

Showing Jon knowing he can ride a dragon makes perfect sense. To expect fans to believe that Jon would climb aboard during that battle without knowing he can would be unrealistic, I think the show had it right to get him some experience before the battle.

Jon on Rheagal directing his fire to the right places can wipe out tens or thousands of the dead and keep them at bay, Jon on the ground can kill hundreds maybe.

This also allows for Jon to watch out for Wights chucking spears up at him, remember Dany avoided the one thrown at Drogon, she steered it away from the spear, the dragon didn't do that on it's own, hence Viseryon being dead.

I do 100% agree that Jon jumping on dragon back in battle would be powerful and all that. Just not logical, so yeah it's happening!

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28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The succession is very much like the Roman Empire or Tsarist Russia.  So long as you have some kind of connection to the royal family, you can make a bid for the IT.

There's yet to be someone who doubts ned Stark's honor. Everyone who's anyone and anyone and everyone knows hes a good man. They Lannister out of fear. If it comes to an argument the son of their true heir who is also the son of Ned Stark should win over a woman they've never met. They need to prove themselves politically able to handle Cersei though. Highgarden, the Sept, everywhere her poison spreads. shes got tentacles. 

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28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The succession is very much like the Roman Empire or Tsarist Russia.  So long as you have some kind of connection to the royal family, you can make a bid for the IT.

There's yet to be someone who doubts ned Stark's honor. Everyone who's anyone and anyone and everyone knows hes a good man. They Lannister out of fear. If it comes to an argument the son of their true heir who is also the son of Ned Stark should win over a woman they've never met. They need to prove themselves politically able to handle Cersei though. Highgarden, the Sept, everywhere her poison spreads. shes got tentacles. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

If he did, then Dany must be really dense to not be suspecious about Jon's bloodline.

But I think ''riding'' is more than that, if Jon decides where Rhaegal go and when he needs to breath fire, then I would say he is riding it.

She debates having Daario being one of her dragonriders in the book. She has no clue about anything regarding dragon lore

59 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The succession is very much like the Roman Empire or Tsarist Russia.  So long as you have some kind of connection to the royal family, you can make a bid for the IT.

The succession is an absolute form of agnatic primogeniture. The only way Daenerys has any claim is if there's no Targaryen male descendants left. Even Blackfyres would have a greater claim than she does.

Edited by longest night

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53 minutes ago, longest night said:

She debates having Daario being one of her dragonriders in the book. She has no clue about anything regarding dragon lore

GRRM did say she should have read Fire and Blood.

Perhaps so she wouldn't make the same mistake as Rhaenyra's camp, just letting any random person ride her dragons.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, longest night said:

The succession is an absolute form of agnatic primogeniture. The only way Daenerys has any claim is if there's no Targaryen male descendants left. Even Blackfyres would have a greater claim than she does.

Ehhhhh the Blackfyres are a bastard cadet branch and Dany is a trueborn member of House Targaryen so she would still be above them, but they would no doubt be right behind her.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Ehhhhh the Blackfyres are a bastard cadet branch and Dany is a trueborn member of House Targaryen so she would still be above them, but they would no doubt be right behind her.

The Blackfyres are a legitimized branch. A legitimized bastard is no different than a true born. Jon being legitimized as example, would put him ahead of Bran and Rickon in succession. The Targaryen agnatic primogeniture puts any male descendants ahead of her, even if they were distant cousins and uncles.

Edited by longest night

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, longest night said:

The Blackfyres are a legitimized branch. A legitimized bastard is no different than a true born.

They are still considered their own house. So unless there are no actual Targaryens left, they wouldn't inherit it. They would certainly have a strong claim but not as strong as any actual member of House Targaryen man or woman.

Ex. Sansa would still inherit Winterfell over any Karstark unless that Karstark member had enough supporters in the North to press their claim.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

They are still considered their own house. So unless there are no actual Targaryens left, they wouldn't inherit it. They would certainly have a strong claim but not as strong as any actual member of House Targaryen man or woman.

Ex. Sansa would still inherit Winterfell over any Karstark unless that Karstark member had enough supporters in the North to press their claim.

They are only considered to be their own House because the person was gifted Blackfyre, the ancestral Targaryen sword and decided to take its name. It doesn't change their claim to the throne through the line of succession.

Targaryen succession is not the same as the Andal succession which Stark and most other houses in Westeros follow. Andal succession is male-preference cognatic primogeniture, which favors daughters of the lord over uncles, cousins, and other distant relatives.

Edited by longest night

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5 hours ago, longest night said:

She debates having Daario being one of her dragonriders in the book. She has no clue about anything regarding dragon lore

The succession is an absolute form of agnatic primogeniture. The only way Daenerys has any claim is if there's no Targaryen male descendants left. Even Blackfyres would have a greater claim than she does.

Nobody ares about that, if you have the means to back up your claim by force.  At the same time, it's good to have something other than pure force to sustain a claim.

Robert relies on his descent from King Maekar.  Cersei relied on being the wife and mother of Kings.  Dany relies on being the daughter and sister of Kings.

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12 hours ago, dbunting said:

Showing Jon knowing he can ride a dragon makes perfect sense. To expect fans to believe that Jon would climb aboard during that battle without knowing he can would be unrealistic, I think the show had it right to get him some experience before the battle.

Yes, that' right. But the revelation of his parentage should have been before the first dragon ride.

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22 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Jon rode Rhaegal and Jon clearly controlled him when Jon turned to go to the waterfall. Anyway the whole idea that Dany would want Jon to try to ride Rhaegal in the first place is dumb. The show let Jon ride a dragon to soon imo.

Completely agree, it would've been more realistic if Rhaegal were to come to the rescue of Jon in the middle of the battle.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, longest night said:

They are only considered to be their own House because the person was gifted Blackfyre, the ancestral Targaryen sword and decided to take its name. It doesn't change their claim to the throne through the line of succession.

Targaryen succession is not the same as the Andal succession which Stark and most other houses in Westeros follow. Andal succession is male-preference cognatic primogeniture, which favors daughters of the lord over uncles, cousins, and other distant relatives.

Daemon clearly formed his own house. Him and Bittersteel went to war with House Targaryen. Highly doubt if he won he’d suddenly switch back to being Daemon Targaryen. He had already embraced being the Black Dragon.

Im assuming you’re referring to what happened after The Dance of Dragons where it became custom for the Female’s to always be overlooked compared to any of their male Kin. Whether they are the only surviving daughter of the last King or not.

The thing here is that House Targaryen isn’t well liked themselves at the moment. A member of House Blackfyre has an even worse chance of being supported. They did attempt 5 failed rebellions. Highly doubt anyone would support a member of that house to inherit the throne over a trueborn Targaryen if it came down to choosing between the two.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Daemon clearly formed his own house. Him and Bittersteel went to war with House Targaryen. Highly doubt if he won he’d suddenly switch back to being Daemon Targaryen. He had already embraced being the Black Dragon.

Im assuming you’re referring to what happened after The Dance of Dragons where it became custom for the Female’s to always be overlooked compared to any of their male Kin. Whether they are the only surviving daughter of the last King or not.

The thing here is that House Targaryen isn’t well liked themselves at the moment. A member of House Blackfyre has an even worse chance of being supported. They did attempt 5 failed rebellions. Highly doubt anyone would support a member of that house to inherit the throne over a trueborn Targaryen if it came down to choosing between the two.

A House is just a surname. If a king is crowned and changes his house name, it doesn't automatically disinherit his cousins and uncles in the line of succession.

I am talking about the Great Council ruling of 101 AC which established the succession law that the crown couldn't pass to a woman or male descendant of a woman.

I disagree, on your last point heavily. The fact that the Targaryens aren't well like right now would make the Blackfyres more tolerable. It's a lot easier to accept someone that's from an old Targaryen sub-House than the daughter of the man they just overthrew. We are only talking about a house that's a little over a 100 years old. As Illyrio Mopatis says in the books for why the Golden Company supports Aegon and was going to support Daenerys, a "Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon".

Edited by longest night

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5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, that' right. But the revelation of his parentage should have been before the first dragon ride.

If there weren't so few episodes left, I'd agree with this. Character-wise, it works better to have Jon ride first given they abbreviated the show’s run.

Here's the character problem where show Jon is concerned: when people find out big stuff like that, they don't just instantly accept it whole. Imagine going through something like that irl. Jon hasn't been obsessing over RLJ for years and years like the fandom who is long past getting on with it already. There just isn't time for in-denial, emo, broody, bad poetry writing, listening to Morrissey in the dark show Jon to deal with this on his own time table. His capacity for statue-staring is seemingly limitless. Remember how Sansa found Jon after the NW and his big plan was wandering around to mope? They could make him ambitious like book Jon to speed it up, but if there's one thing the show has stuck to consistently, it's the reluctant Westerosi Jesus that is show Jon who has to be pushed into power at every turn.

Show Jon only wanted to know his mother’s identity. Instead he found out his Dad wasn’t his Dad and he'll never know his birth parents because they're both dead. He’s heir of the IT when he didn’t even want KitN. His sibs are actually his cousins, and this after he’s struggled his whole life with fitting in with his family for his bastardry. He’d hope that this wouldn’t change things with his family, but seriously, it might well do just that. And the only person on the other side of his family is his girlfriend/auntie who burned alive his bff's family and is generally lookin' a bit off lately. It's not a good position. He just got his home back, his family back. He has a place to belong. Being a bastard doesn't matter anymore. And then this. It makes zero, and I mean zero sense that show Jon would embrace any of this quickly or easily. 

They had Jon ride a dragon first (not by his choice but because Dany bullied him into it) because it helped things fall into place faster and thank the stars we’ve been saved at least somewhat from emo Jon because he'd be putting off dealing with it even worse than what we've seen already. And they’ve forced Jon into accepting this even faster by Dany being, uh, problematic, and at the this point at least, I see her character as being thrown under the bus to force Jon into accepting power without tainting his holy self with any ambition whatsoever. They’ll probably push the issue further onto Jon if that aftermath trailer is any indication. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Vastrok said:

Completely agree, it would've been more realistic if Rhaegal were to come to the rescue of Jon in the middle of the battle.


Not knowing Rhaegal's intentions I bet he would be scared.:o

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, longest night said:

A House is just a surname. If a king is crowned and changes his house name, it doesn't automatically disinherit his cousins and uncles in the line of succession.

I am talking about the Great Council ruling of 101 AC which established the succession law that the crown couldn't pass to a woman or male descendant of a woman.

I disagree, on your last point heavily. The fact that the Targaryens aren't well like right now would make the Blackfyres more tolerable. It's a lot easier to accept someone that's from an old Targaryen sub-House than the daughter of the man they just overthrew. We are only talking about a house that's a little over a 100 years old. As Illyrio Mopatis says in the books for why the Golden Company supports Aegon and was going to support Daenerys, a "Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon".

I completely disagree. If the blackfyre theory is in fact correct (which I'm like 99% sure it is) then The Golden Company was NEVER going to support Daenerys or Viserys to begin with they were always pawns. Illyrio says "A Dragon is a Dragon" to Tyrion when Tyrion shows huge doubt because Tyrion knows the Golden Company would never support the Targaryens who exiled them. Illyrio and Varys are literally HIDING the fact that Aegon is a Blackfyre because they know nobody in Westeros would support him if his true parentage was revealed.

 

And despite The Mad King's madness. Robert was right "there are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me usurper". The Targs despite their hit reputation would still have more supporters in Westeros than the Blackfyres.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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32 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I completely disagree. If the blackfyre theory is in fact correct (which I'm like 99% sure it is) then The Golden Company was NEVER going to support Daenerys or Viserys to begin with they were always pawns. Illyrio says "A Dragon is a Dragon" to Tyrion when Tyrion shows huge doubt because Tyrion kenows the Golden Company would never support the Targaryens who exiled them. Illyrio and Varys are literally HIDING the fact that Aegon is a Blackfyre because they know nobody in Westeros would support him if his true parentage was revealed.

 

And despite The Mad King's madness. Robert was right "there are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me usurper". The Targs despite their hit reputation would still have more supporters in Westeros than the Blackfyres.

I think they would more likely use a Blackfyre as a Blackfyre than raise him as a Targaryen. Tyrion thinks a lot of things, it doesn't mean he's right. It's been almost a 100 years since the Golden Company fought for the Blackfyres and Bittersteel is long dead. It kind of defeats the whole purpose to put a Blackfyre on the throne under the Targaryen banner. It would be a reversal of when Daemon decided to take the Blackfyre name instead of Targaryen.

Saying that Illyrio and Varys are hiding the fact that Aegon is a Blackfyre because nobody in Westeros would support him is some how proof that he's a Blackfyre is just circular logic.

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18 hours ago, longest night said:

They are only considered to be their own House because the person was gifted Blackfyre, the ancestral Targaryen sword and decided to take its name. It doesn't change their claim to the throne through the line of succession.

Targaryen succession is not the same as the Andal succession which Stark and most other houses in Westeros follow. Andal succession is male-preference cognatic primogeniture, which favors daughters of the lord over uncles, cousins, and other distant relatives.

As Illyrio said, black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. 

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