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Jenny of Oldstones by Florence + the Machine

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52 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Interesting! I really didn't see it that way. But in that case, Daenerys might well end up being the "Jenny" for whom Jon forsakes his (Northern) crown with Sansa being the aggrieved party. 

That is fake tension. If Jon were to leave the North with Dany Sansa could rule Winterfell and the North (in their name). That should make her very happy.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

That is fake tension. If Jon were to leave the North with Dany Sansa could rule Winterfell and the North (in their name). That should make her very happy.

Not saying it's good. Just saying it could happen.

Also "Blablabla the North will bow to no one blablablabla"

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By the way - the books do reflect the original Jenny love triangle from DotL not just with Jenny and Duncan and Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Robert, but also with Catelyn, Littlefinger, and Lysa - and quite possibly with other love triangles further down the road.

There is a reason, one assumes, that the dragon has three heads and one of those dragon heads is most definitely a woman...

How George is going to play this is completely unclear at this point, of course, but there will be emotions complicating things - but in an actual believable way.

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I think the song in the show has a little to do with original "Jenny from Oldstones" whatever meaning GRRM put in it. Jenny's story is never mentioned as far as I recall. Probably they just picked one of the songs mentioned in books and gave it a new meaning. The key is "she never wanted to leave". The whole episode was mostly about characters getting what they sought in the past, clutching for these "ghosts" of things that aren't relevant anymore in the face of imminent death, but what they still hold dear and what could give them some comfort:

Spoiler

Brienne getting knighted (who cares about title anymore?), Jaime and Tyrion getting things settled, Arya having sex with Gendry etc.

 

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is fake tension. If Jon were to leave the North with Dany Sansa could rule Winterfell and the North (in their name). That should make her very happy.

She wants to rule with Jon. She loves him. Familial or romantic. 

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

. I'm getting Dany/Sansa/Jon alarm bells like crazy in the last episode.

Then something must be wrong with your bells. My Dany/Sansa/Jon alarm is quite still. Just as still as my Sam/Jamie/Night King alarm bell.

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7 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

I got chills when Podrick starting singing this. 

It is moving every time I re watch the scene.

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I have artistic issues with this scene. It is a straight copy of "Return of the King" where one of the other two hobbits (can't tell the two apart) sings in the halls of Minas Thirit.

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16 minutes ago, T and A said:

Then something must be wrong with your bells.

D: And yet I can't help but feel we're at odds with one another. Why is that? Your brother.

S: He loves you, you know that.

D: That bothers you. 

70% of the conversation was about Jon. There is always going to be a triangle in GRRM's work.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She wants to rule with Jon. She loves him. Familial or romantic. 

Who? Sansa or Dany ;-)?

Sansa is no Targaryen, so she cannot possibly marry her half-brother. More importantly, as 'the smartest person on the show whatever' she sure as hell should know that if she cannot marry her brother she is going to make a political match. This is not a world where siblings rule together and refuse to get married because they secretly love each other (even Cersei got married, no ;-)).

In that sense: Again, fake tension, stupid story.

But then - I really don't get any vibe about Sansa loving Jon in any romantic way. If they had intended to send such a message they sucked at that, too.

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25 minutes ago, T and A said:

I have artistic issues with this scene. It is a straight copy of "Return of the King" where one of the other two hobbits (can't tell the two apart) sings in the halls of Minas Thirit.

Yeah, that was very obvious. Even the song and the music rip off the Tolkien song.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Who? Sansa or Dany ;-)?

Sansa is no Targaryen, so she cannot possibly marry her half-brother. More importantly, as 'the smartest person on the show whatever' she sure as hell should know that if she cannot marry her brother she is going to make a political match. This is not a world where siblings rule together and refuse to get married because they secretly love each other (even Cersei got married, no ;-)).

In that sense: Again, fake tension, stupid story.

But then - I really don't get any vibe about Sansa loving Jon in any romantic way. If they had intended to send such a message they sucked at that, too.

Aegon V, Duncan, Rhaegar. 3 times a Targaryen didn't marry a Targaryen with deep backstory. You're pushing for traditional Targaryen restoration that when we know Jon is an atypical Targ. Out of those marriages, there is a mix of Riverlanders and Northerners, exactly what Sansa is. 

Bran has already said that Jon is not his brother, driving home the point of how relationships will change.

Since Sansa won't bow to Dany but she would trust the North's rule under Jon, this sets up the Pact of Ice and Fire as the only solution for a united Westeros. 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Aegon V, Duncan, Rhaegar. 3 times a Targaryen didn't marry a Targaryen with deep backstory. You're pushing for traditional Targaryen restoration that when we know Jon is an atypical Targ. Out of those marriages, there is a mix of Riverlanders and Northerners, exactly what Sansa is. 

Bran has already said that Jon is not his brother, driving home the point of how relationships will change.

Since Sansa won't bow to Dany but she would trust the North's rule under Jon, this sets up the Pact of Ice and Fire as the only solution for a united Westeros. 

Sounds like you really would like to watch or read that. But that's not the story.

And nobody ever said that the Targaryens have to marry each other. They can also marry cousins who don't have the same house name or even unrelated people. That's no uncommon.

What's weird is your attempt to reduce actual characters to bloodlines and regions, by the way. The story is about people, not bloodlines.

If they wanted to do a Sansa-Jon romance then the groundwork for that would and should have been laid in the last two seasons. There could have been an actual visible attraction, perhaps even an incestuous affair. Dany, Jon, and Sansa could have become a love triangle with Jon being torn between Dany and Sansa. Is there anything like that in the show? No. Making it very unlikely that people who are family and not keen on incestuous or even first cousin marriages suddenly develop a weird attraction for each other while Jon actually still has a woman he is very much in love with.

 

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Someone may have mentioned this elsewhere, but it bugs me: While the song was pretty and it's nice to have lyrics for it, it makes no sense in the context of the show. The show eliminated Jaehaerys II's generation, which would include his brother Duncan and therefore Duncan's wife Jenny. So how exactly is there a song "Jenny of Oldstones" if Jenny herself never existed?

I mean, it's the show where continuity also doesn't seem to exist, but still.

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4 minutes ago, grumkin_snark said:

Someone may have mentioned this elsewhere, but it bugs me: While the song was pretty and it's nice to have lyrics for it, it makes no sense in the context of the show. The show eliminated Jaehaerys II's generation, which would include his brother Duncan and therefore Duncan's wife Jenny. So how exactly is there a song "Jenny of Oldstones" if Jenny herself never existed?

I mean, it's the show where continuity also doesn't seem to exist, but still.

What makes you believe the Jenny mentioned in the song in the show was even married to a Targaryen prince named Duncan? This is never said, so don't take it for granted.

Also, considering how rife with internal contradictions this madhouse is we can definitely pretend that the generation of Jaehaerys II does exist in the show universe.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What makes you believe the Jenny mentioned in the song in the show was even married to a Targaryen prince named Duncan? This is never said, so don't take it for granted.

Also, considering how rife with internal contradictions this madhouse is we can definitely pretend that the generation of Jaehaerys II does exist in the show universe.

Jaehaerys's generation doesn't exist, though. Maester Aemon very clearly said so.

As for Jenny, the suggestion that some rando commoner not only existed despite her contemporaries not existing, but was famous enough to get a song made about her that's spread to every corner of the realm, and also danced with ghosts at Summerhall is, um...a bit batty.

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1 minute ago, grumkin_snark said:

Jaehaerys's generation doesn't exist, though. Maester Aemon very clearly said so.

As for Jenny, the suggestion that some rando commoner not only existed despite her contemporaries not existing, but was famous enough to get a song made about her that's spread to every corner of the realm, and also danced with ghosts at Summerhall is, um...a bit batty.

Summerhall isn't mentioned in the song. Not even clear that Jenny is a commoner or a real person even. It is just a song.

I know what Aemon said, but so what? Could have been a mistake like Cersei loving both Robert and Rhaegar, like her having only three children in the prophecy and four in real life, like the title of the King on the Iron Throne including or not including the Rhoynar, etc.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Summerhall isn't mentioned in the song. Not even clear that Jenny is a commoner or a real person even. It is just a song.

I know what Aemon said, but so what? Could have been a mistake like Cersei loving both Robert and Rhaegar, like her having only three children in the prophecy and four in real life, like the title of the King on the Iron Throne including or not including the Rhoynar, etc.

It's pretty clear that Summerhall is implied.

It just seems rather silly--even for the show--that they'd decide to include this specific song about that specific person when they indisputably did away with her. Why not literally any other song? There are plenty.

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36 minutes ago, grumkin_snark said:

Someone may have mentioned this elsewhere, but it bugs me: While the song was pretty and it's nice to have lyrics for it, it makes no sense in the context of the show. The show eliminated Jaehaerys II's generation, which would include his brother Duncan and therefore Duncan's wife Jenny. So how exactly is there a song "Jenny of Oldstones" if Jenny herself never existed?

I mean, it's the show where continuity also doesn't seem to exist, but still.

I mean, it's a song about 'a' Jenny. The characters don't need to know who that is; it's mostly for the book readers benefit.

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