Saying Goodbye

[Lady Rhodes]

There are always things to gripe about or pick apart, but this episode, in my opinion, was one of the best we have seen in a long time.  I'm going to go as far and say one of the best since Season 4.

I liked that there wasn't CGI flash.  I liked that we saw no dragons and very little AOTD (Army of the Dead).  It was people coping with the knowledge that they most likely will die the next day and the various ways that they cope with this knowledge.  Some of them drink with friends around the fire, some of them have sex (which is why I liked the Arya scene), some of them go to the crypts to pay respects to the dead.   It seemed real.  In this world where the writers have been stretching time and motivation and pushing good narrative storytelling aside in order to advance plot...this seemed real.  People coping with the idea of dying.

 

[Red Dragon10]

I also liked that there wasn't CGI flash.  I've always appreciated character development in this story, over spectacle.  The problem for me was that what could have been some very poignant scenes fell a bit flat for me.  There were a few sweet moments (cut far too short).  And while having sex might be a normal reaction to "I might die tomorrow", I thought Arya was the wrong person to fill that role.  It just doesn't make sense to me that THAT is what she most wants to experience on her maybe-last-night.  A lot of stuff felt a bit thrown together to me and just not good enough, since this is going to be the last time we really hear from some of these characters.  There are too many characters left and not enough time to do them justice, and when they do have 'their moment', the script writing is too poor to be memorable or they focus on the wrong subject/don't spend those characters time wisely. 

[Kajjo]

46 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

There are always things to gripe about or pick apart, but this episode, in my opinion, was one of the best we have seen in a long time.

Agreed. This one was full of emotions, the scenes were not rushed, important clues to the plotline divulged. Very good indeed. It's a 10/10 from me.

[Kajjo]

5 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

It just doesn't make sense to me that THAT is what she most wants to experience on her maybe-last-night.

Hm, what do you think she might want to do? Besides to train even more.

She was flirting with Gendry in E1, they had a bond long ago. For me it is believable.

They didn't show it to be overly romantic. She was quite straight-forward about it and that fits her character.

[btfu806]

I personally would have liked this episode to have been combined with the last one. It seemed a bit much to have one third of your season being characters catching up. But, it was nice to just not be hit in the face with CGI this entire episode. Let the actors act. I also think there were some really enjoyable moments this episode. Depending on how the plot lines go in the future, there could be some good ground work laid on character and story developments. As long as it isn't an intentionally fake out again. I am trying relaly hard to be optimistic here! haha.

[Red Dragon10]

2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Hm, what do you think she might want to do? Besides to train even more.

She was flirting with Gendry in E1, they had a bond long ago. For me it is believable.

They didn't show it to be overly romantic. She was quite straight-forward about it and that fits her character.

I posted this on another thread:  What would have been in character and worth seeing, in my opinion, would be Arya opening up just a bit to Sansa or Jon, reminiscing about Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Rickon etc.  She still has a lot of love deep down that motivated so much of her revenge.  If it might be her last night, it would have been more worthwhile to have her remaining humanity revealed through her remembrance of those she loves and misses. 

[Kajjo]

Just now, Red Dragon10 said:

Arya opening up just a bit to Sansa or Jon, reminiscing about Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Rickon

Yeah, could have been... only that Jon was in the Crypts and had to do with himself. Sansa was catching up with Theon. And Arya was, as expected (!), training.

Arya simply training make a lot of sense. Then along comes Gendry and she seduces him to know what sex is alike. Makes some sense to me.

Arya is depicted as fighter, assassin, warrior... it is in sync that she feels like a soldier before the battle. Sex fits. Tormund surely wanted to have sex with Brienne. 

OK, that was plot-wise, show-wise I would argue that Sansa and Arya had a reminiscing scene end of S7. The same would have been boring. 

 

[Red Dragon10]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Yeah, could have been... only that Jon was in the Crypts and had to do with himself. Sansa was catching up with Theon. And Arya was, as expected (!), training.

Arya simply training make a lot of sense. Then along comes Gendry and she seduces him to know what sex is alike. Makes some sense to me.

Arya is depicted as fighter, assassin, warrior... it is in sync that she feels like a soldier before the battle. Sex fits. Tormund surely wanted to have sex with Brienne. 

OK, that was plot-wise, show-wise I would argue that Sansa and Arya had a reminiscing scene end of S7. The same would have been boring. 

 

Yes, I was disappointed in every one of the Stark's just doing their own thing.  But..that's what we got and I know I'm just not going to get the poignant scenes I was hoping for.  Arya is a assassin and a fighter, but I do not at all put her into the 'soldier' slot (who might want to get drunk, have sex, etc before dying the next day).  She is something quite different as a would-have-been faceless man.  I don't think she cares about the stuff most people would care about or take comfort in.  But I do think she still has love for her family and those she has lost and I would have preferred that they focus on that.  

I get what you're saying...but I don't agree. 

[Kajjo]

Just now, Red Dragon10 said:

She is something quite different

That I admit. She is different.

Just now, Red Dragon10 said:

I don't think she cares about the stuff most people would care about or take comfort in.

I am not so sure whether she wouldn't like to be embraced by Jon or have some "the pack survives" moment. However, she training alone is very believable, too.

2 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I know I'm just not going to get the poignant scenes I was hoping for

I can see why you hoped for that and it's not that I'd disliked it. Probably I would have enjoyed it too.

[Faera]

I agree. This episode was basically something D&D are really good at, which is events happening just in the period of a day, all set in one place, just characters preparing for that night. 

Though I feel seeing the characters the episode put the most focus on you can semi-tell who is likely dying next week and who is going forward to "the next stage". Brienne being names a knight by Jaime and having that moment of fulfillment and acceptance as everyone cheers her on has an air of finality about it. I can certainly see her dying.

Arya's last bash makes me think either she or Gendry might die in the battle, too.

Bran's precarious position together with his comment to Jaime of 'what makes you think there'll be an "afterwards"?' makes me think he will die in episode 3, or possibly even Jaime will. Everyone is so obsessed with the idea of the Valonqar prophecy that they forget it's a moote point in the show because it was never established. There's nothing to stop one or both of them dying.

35 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I posted this on another thread:  What would have been in character and worth seeing, in my opinion, would be Arya opening up just a bit to Sansa or Jon, reminiscing about Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Rickon etc.  She still has a lot of love deep down that motivated so much of her revenge.  If it might be her last night, it would have been more worthwhile to have her remaining humanity revealed through her remembrance of those she loves and misses. 

Personally, it would have been nice to have Sansa, Jon, Arya, Theon and maybe even Bran all sit around thinking about the old days before the show started. If we're sitting around telling cute stories, why not a daft one from their childhood at Winterfell. Given the place is likely about to be flattened by the AotD, it's the one thing I think this episode was missing.

[Lady Rhodes]

44 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

They didn't show it to be overly romantic. She was quite straight-forward about it and that fits her character.

It reminded me, too, of Season 3 when Gendry says he is going to stay with the brotherhood.  She said "I could be your family"  So I don't think it is that far out of the range of possibility. If it had been a stranger, I would say no, way off base.  But she has a relationship with Gendry

[Kajjo]

4 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

She said "I could be your family"  So I don't think it is that far out of the range of possibility. If it had been a stranger, I would say no, way off base.  But she has a relationship with Gendry

Yes, all the scenes are reminiscent of that. When she tries to get her weapon in the forgery, this mirrors the goodbye scene very closely.

Also Gendry revealing his ancestry mirrors Arya confiding she is Arya Stark to Gendry back then.

Arya and Gendry have a companion-like relationship, a certain bond between them and she had feelings for him back then. Probably platonic feelings, maybe even a slight young girls crush. 

[Lady Rhodes]

50 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I posted this on another thread:  What would have been in character and worth seeing, in my opinion, would be Arya opening up just a bit to Sansa or Jon, reminiscing about Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Rickon etc.  She still has a lot of love deep down that motivated so much of her revenge.  If it might be her last night, it would have been more worthwhile to have her remaining humanity revealed through her remembrance of those she loves and misses. 

That would have been nice.  More conversation between them all, I think, would have been good. To go along with what someone else said, I preferred this episode far more that the premiere and wished some of it could have been combined. I would have been happier.

 

15 minutes ago, Faera said:

I agree. This episode was basically something D&D are really good at, which is events happening just in the period of a day, all set in one place, just characters preparing for that night. 

100% yes. I said in another forum referring to Season 7, I would have loved to have had a full 10 episode season so we could have had more dinners, conversations, etc.  The things that I originally thought were the most boring parts of the show and book series are now the parts I love the most - the plodding through the riverlands and Seven Kingdoms.

[Lady Rhodes]

9 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, all the scenes are reminiscent of that. When she tries to get her weapon in the forgery, this mirrors the goodbye scene very closely.

Also Gendry revealing his ancestry mirrors Arya confiding she is Arya Stark to Gendry back then.

Arya and Gendry have a companion-like relationship, a certain bond between them and she had feelings for him back then. Probably platonic feelings, maybe even a slight young girls crush. 

I agree.  I think that her wanting to have sex before she died is normal in both the battle sense (how many soldiers in whore houses have we seen?) and in the maturity sense - this is a young person who has a strong possibility of dying the very next day and wants to experience one of the facets of being human.  It wouldn't make sense for her to do this with a stranger - she would never allow herself to be that vulnerable.  But she could with Gendry.  I think this is why it pays off.

 

[Kajjo]

19 minutes ago, Faera said:

Arya's last bash makes me think either she or Gendry might die in the battle, too.

 

That would really be sad, Arya more so than Gendry, but I like both. I hope they will survive. This sex scene does not need to be foreshadowing, it can just be intended to add some depth and humanity to Arya. And very many watchers like Arya scenes anyway, she is one of the most liked characters.

20 minutes ago, Faera said:

'what makes you think there'll be an "afterwards"?' makes me think he will die in episode 3, or possibly even Jaime will.

Yeah, very difficult to predict. Maybe Jamie heroically sacrifices himself to the Living. That would conclude his arc from villain to hero.

4 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I would have loved to have had a full 10 episode season so we could have had more dinners, conversations, etc.  The things that I originally thought were the most boring parts of the show and book series are now the parts I love the most

Me too. It's the emotions, the dialogues, being moved and touched. it's not primarily about dragons or direwolves, it's about emotions. 

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I agree.  I think that her wanting to have sex before she died is normal in both the battle sense (how many soldiers in whore houses have we seen?) and in the maturity sense - this is a young person who has a strong possibility of dying the very next day and wants to experience one of the facets of being human.  It wouldn't make sense for her to do this with a stranger - she would never allow herself to be that vulnerable.  But she could with Gendry.  I think this is why it pays off.

Fully agree. Gendry was a reasonable choice to feel well with for such a last-night sex scene.

[Nerevanin]

1 hour ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I posted this on another thread:  What would have been in character and worth seeing, in my opinion, would be Arya opening up just a bit to Sansa or Jon, reminiscing about Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Rickon etc.  She still has a lot of love deep down that motivated so much of her revenge.  If it might be her last night, it would have been more worthwhile to have her remaining humanity revealed through her remembrance of those she loves and misses. 

I completely agree. Arya talking with Sansa (or Bran or Jon or all of them) would be more believable than random out of blue sex with Gendry. If someone was there to spend the last hours having sex, I think it would be nice if it was Brienne and Jaime (wishful fan thinking, I know, lol). Arya and Gendry felt forced.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Nerevanin said:

if it was Brienne and Jaime

Well, THAT would have seemed forced. After their row on the training field... after the knighhood the night was almost over. And before they were talking about honor, but not flirting.

Arya flirted with Gendry before, at least that. 

But yes, a "pack meetup" of the Starks would have been fine, too. But in real-life such evenings are not "like written in a fairy tale", too. 

[Faera]

40 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

100% yes. I said in another forum referring to Season 7, I would have loved to have had a full 10 episode season so we could have had more dinners, conversations, etc.  The things that I originally thought were the most boring parts of the show and book series are now the parts I love the most - the plodding through the riverlands and Seven Kingdoms.

I think I've seen loads of people say that, ironically, the less action-based moments are the ones that made the show so good. Characters just having the chance to sit around and chat. It is something that we have lacked a lot of since *sigh* around S5 it started to drop off, S6 has loads of missed opportunities for it... then S7 didn't really bother to have any of those meaningful character moments.

So, I sorely missed not having a moment where we could just have the remaining Stark siblings (yes, even Bran) and Jon just having a chance to sit down and recall their lives in Winterfell and the dangers they are about to face. Especially given there is a high probability that one or more of them will die. Heck, we could even have made a joke where they recall a story of something they did in their childhood and Bran comments about something he knows one of them did. They could be all, "Did you see that with your powers?" and he could be call, "No, I was directly above you and saw the whole thing." Everyone chuckles, maybe even he cracks a smile. I mean, if Bran is seriously about to die acknowledging that "Bran" is still in there with his memories, even delivering them in a monotone manner, amongst the soup of 3ER stuff.

I'd take those four sitting down and telling a story of the antics they used to get up to over 100 sex scenes with Gendry. 

43 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

That would really be sad, Arya more so than Gendry, but I like both. I hope they will survive. This sex scene does not need to be foreshadowing, it can just be intended to add some depth and humanity to Arya. And very many watchers like Arya scenes anyway, she is one of the most liked characters.

Maybe, though that's exactly why a part of me feels one of them will die.

50 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Yeah, very difficult to predict. Maybe Jamie heroically sacrifices himself to the Living. That would conclude his arc from villain to hero.

True, though in the same episode Bran admits he can't see the future - though he doesn't have to have seen what is going to happen for the words to be foreshadowing.

[Larger than Average Finger]

2 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I posted this on another thread:  What would have been in character and worth seeing, in my opinion, would be Arya opening up just a bit to Sansa or Jon, reminiscing about Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Rickon etc.  She still has a lot of love deep down that motivated so much of her revenge.  If it might be her last night, it would have been more worthwhile to have her remaining humanity revealed through her remembrance of those she loves and misses. 

Yes, a scene where she opened up a bit one of the people she cares about, they said something that made her realize she needed someone, before she went to Gendry would have made more sense.