Saying Goodbye

[Kajjo]

3 minutes ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

Yes, a scene where she opened up a bit one of the people she cares about, they said something that made her realize she needed someone, before she went to Gendry would have made more sense. 

Yes and no. 

Yes, such a scene would have been nice. 

No, the sex was about desire, virginity and the last night. It was not about romance in the first place.

[Larger than Average Finger]

21 minutes ago, Faera said:

I'd take those four sitting down and telling a story of the antics they used to get up to over 100 sex scenes with Gendry. 

Maybe, though that's exactly why a part of me feels one of them will die.

True, though in the same episode Bran admits he can't see the future - though he doesn't have to have seen what is going to happen for the words to be foreshadowing.

Typically, when writers give you a sex scene, when just a kiss would have the same effect on the story, its because they want a pregnancy. Had she got weapon, and they did a "I won't die without telling you how a feel" Cliché, kissed and went back to preparations, I would say either might die.  Now its like her that lives, because she is better than 50/50 to be pregnant and a Baratheon baby is important to the story.

[Faera]

12 minutes ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

Typically, when writers give you a sex scene, when just a kiss would have the same effect on the story, its because they want a pregnancy. Had she got weapon, and they did a "I won't die without telling you how a feel" Cliché, kissed and went back to preparations, I would say either might die.  Now its like her that lives, because she is better than 50/50 to be pregnant and a Baratheon baby is important to the story.

IDK, as much as I criticise it I totally get the whole "I don't want to die a virgin" angle so, I don't see it going further than that. To me,  it served more of a combination of fanservice and wanting to show Arya has "grown-up". But sure, I guess that could be her "plot armour" if she gets pregnant. Could but not certain. This is GoT after all.

[Kajjo]

16 minutes ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

Typically, when writers give you a sex scene, when just a kiss would have the same effect on the story, its because they want a pregnancy

• Sansa is not pregnant from Ramsay
• Shae didn't get pregnant
• Gilly is not pregnant again
• Daenerys didn't get pregnant from Daario Naharis
• Cersei didn't get pregnant for almost seven seasons despite sex with several men

I don't believe we have to assume that Arya gets pregnant with just one encounter. The biological chances are only moderate (10-15%). 

Further, all the main events will probably play out in days to weeks now, so we will see. But yes, if Gendry and Arya survive the battle and have sex more often, they might become a couple and Arya might become pregnant. 

5 minutes ago, Faera said:

To me,  it served more of a combination of fanservice and wanting to show Arya has "grown-up".

For me it makes a lot of sense for Arya wanting to have sex before dying. 

[Faera]

5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

For me it makes a lot of sense for Arya wanting to have sex before dying. 

Yep, going back to when I was the age she's supposed to be and if I was facing almost certain death, I'd probably do the same. The "I don't want to die a virgin" is a trope because it's very relatable. 

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Faera said:

Yep, going back to when I was the age she's supposed to be and if I was facing almost certain death, I'd probably do the same. The "I don't want to die a virgin" is a trope because it's very relatable. 

Agreed. 

[Forlong the Fat]

2 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Yes, I was disappointed in every one of the Stark's just doing their own thing.  But..that's what we got and I know I'm just not going to get the poignant scenes I was hoping for.  Arya is a assassin and a fighter, but I do not at all put her into the 'soldier' slot (who might want to get drunk, have sex, etc before dying the next day).  She is something quite different as a would-have-been faceless man.  I don't think she cares about the stuff most people would care about or take comfort in.  But I do think she still has love for her family and those she has lost and I would have preferred that they focus on that.  

I get what you're saying...but I don't agree. 

This is sort of arbitrary. She doesn't care about the stuff most people care about, but she would care about reminiscing with family (again) but not about having sex with one of the only people alive with whom she has a longstanding relationship? I think you simply would prefer that her humanity is not expressed through sexuality.

[Red Dragon10]

3 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

This is sort of arbitrary. She doesn't care about the stuff most people care about, but she would care about reminiscing with family (again) but not about having sex with one of the only people alive with whom she has a longstanding relationship? I think you simply would prefer that her humanity is not expressed through sexuality.

Yes, I think this is exactly what I indicated earlier.  That Arya *does* have remaining humanity, but I think a lot of it revolves around her family and those she has lost.  So I would have found it more in character for them to focus on that instead of bringing sexuality into it, when we have never, ever seen that from Arya.  We saw some childish romance towards Gendry when she was younger, but I don't think the "sex on the eve of battle" or "I don't want to die a virgin" tropes work for a character like Arya...especially not the Arya of season 8.  

[Larger than Average Finger]

36 minutes ago, Faera said:

IDK, as much as I criticise it I totally get the whole "I don't want to die a virgin" angle so, I don't see it going further than that. To me,  it served more of a combination of fanservice and wanting to show Arya has "grown-up". But sure, I guess that could be her "plot armour" if she gets pregnant. Could but not certain. This is GoT after all.

Its what's best about the show.  On almost any other show, its virtually certain, here we don't know.

[Forlong the Fat]

16 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Yes, I think this is exactly what I indicated earlier.  That Arya *does* have remaining humanity, but I think a lot of it revolves around her family and those she has lost.  So I would have found it more in character for them to focus on that instead of bringing sexuality into it, when we have never, ever seen that from Arya.  We saw some childish romance towards Gendry when she was younger, but I don't think the "sex on the eve of battle" or "I don't want to die a virgin" tropes work for a character like Arya...especially not the Arya of season 8.  

That's simply arbitrary.  She already has reunited and reminisced with her family, and there is an essential prudishness in suggesting her humanity wouldn't or shouldn't include sex. Why not?

To dig into it deeper, she has been on a journey where she has chosen her humanity over being no one (going home instead of heading to KL to continue her kill list). She went home and reconnected with her family. She talked about memories of her father.

Right before she had sex with Gendry she commented on her kill list and noted that Beric is no longer on it; she is letting go of that part of herself. Having sex is another aspect of letting go.  And it seems that, maybe, she is at the same clinging to aspects of being no one as a defense mechanism. Perhaps she can't admit to herself that she wants to experience desire, physical connection and comfort, so she says to herself and to Gendry that she's just going for the experience before dying. In any case, admitting to her desire and acting on it is another step in her journey back to a semi-normal person.

[Raksha 2014]

What I've really missed, and I think would have happened by now, or possibly should happen before any more Starks die or are split up (i.e. one or two more episodes), is Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Bran sitting down together and talking about what has happened to each of them since they parted in Season 1.  They've only revealed snippets, one person to another.  They need to know.  We wouldn't have to hear it all, just know that they were opening up to each other in family mode.  Aren't any of them curious as to what a Three-Eyed Raven is, and how Bran came to be one, anyway?  Or where Arya learned to be such an efficient killer?  Or what it was like to be a Lannister hostage in King's Landing?  And how the heck Jon died and came back (Arya and Sansa don't know that he died, I don't think)...

[Red Dragon10]

37 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

That's simply arbitrary.  She already has reunited and reminisced with her family, and there is an essential prudishness in suggesting her humanity wouldn't or shouldn't include sex. Why not?

I think my biggest issue with it, is that we are being told that there is a good chance that this is their last night ever (I happen to think Arya will survive the battle in 8x03 though) and I just don't buy it as being what Arya of all characters most wants to do with her last few hours.  I felt that some of the reunions, like the one with Jon, was a bit thin/flat and I would have liked that relationship  (or some of the other familial relationships) to be revisited more.  Hopefully there will be a chance to do so before the end of the season. 

P.S.  I don't think my reasoning is arbitrary at all.  If anything, I think having Arya have sex on her maybe-last-night is arbitrary. 

[Forlong the Fat]

1 hour ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I think my biggest issue with it, is that we are being told that there is a good chance that this is their last night ever (I happen to think Arya will survive the battle in 8x03 though) and I just don't buy it as being what Arya of all characters most wants to do with her last few hours.  I felt that some of the reunions, like the one with Jon, was a bit thin/flat and I would have liked that relationship  (or some of the other familial relationships) to be revisited more.  Hopefully there will be a chance to do so before the end of the season. 

P.S.  I don't think my reasoning is arbitrary at all.  If anything, I think having Arya have sex on her maybe-last-night is arbitrary. 

There are two possibilities, I think. One is that you don't thing sex, and more broadly physical contact, affection, and comfort, is really important to most people. Another is that you think that, although that's true, it shouldn't be the focus of drama. The second point is what I referred to as essential prudishness.

As for the first, I think that basically the entire history of the world suggest that sex is important to most people, and wanting to experience it before death is understandable. Furthermore, we're talking about a TV show exhibiting portions of the characters' experience to advance the plot or the characters' development. I don't presume that Arya didn't speak with anyone in her family, but rather that the choice was made to include this portion of her experience because it advanced her character arc, as I detailed in my previous post.

[Red Dragon10]

33 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I don't presume that Arya didn't speak with anyone in her family, but rather that the choice was made to include this portion of her experience because it advanced her character arc, as I detailed in my previous post.

Of course sex is important to most people.  But this is a TV show, and like you said, there is only time to show some things on screen.  Lets say this is her last night alive.  I would prefer that the showrunners had focused more on what I view as being most important to Arya's character development - her family and whatever shreds are left of her humanity.  Can she come back from being a near-faceless man?  Who is she now?  What would the rest of her family think of how she has spent her days?  Would they be afraid of her?  I think in the limited time the show has left, I'd prefer those shreds of humanity be spent on other relationships, as I mentioned in my previous post.  Each character has limited screen time left, and there are so many conversations and interactions I'd like to see Arya having instead of a throwaway sex scene that I *don't* view as integral to her development as a character.  Obviously different people view different things as being important to each character.  

The showrunners/writers have left so. much. to happen and be discussed off screen.  Really important stuff.  I'd rather some of that be addressed than have Arya suddenly want to lose her virginity.   I really can't explain it any other way...and I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.  I guess part of it is that I just don't view Gendry as super important at this point and wish some of the side characters would just disappear to leave more screen time for the main characters. 

[Staenerys Stargaryen]

I liked this episode as well but wish they could have combined the first 2 episodes into just the first episode... Especially with this being the last season. Obviously next episode will be epic.

I'm kinda low key surprised of the low death toll in episodes 1 and 2... no named characters died and really the only thing I can remember is the Theon saving his sister no names getting it.

I hope the night king gets some valyrian steel episode 3 or they have to retreat from winterfell and he chases them south.  The homies chill in the vale and let the dead attack cersei.  Bronze Yohn Royce is still lurking around Sansa not saying anything.  The NK would be silly to storm the eyrie without first collecting the golden company to his ranks. Might explain the empty kings landing with snowfall when Dany finally arrives

 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

17 hours ago, Kajjo said:

• Sansa is not pregnant from Ramsay
• Shae didn't get pregnant
• Gilly is not pregnant again
• Daenerys didn't get pregnant from Daario Naharis
• Cersei didn't get pregnant for almost seven seasons despite sex with several men

I don't believe we have to assume that Arya gets pregnant with just one encounter. The biological chances are only moderate (10-15%). 

Further, all the main events will probably play out in days to weeks now, so we will see. But yes, if Gendry and Arya survive the battle and have sex more often, they might become a couple and Arya might become pregnant. 

For me it makes a lot of sense for Arya wanting to have sex before dying. 

Well stories aren't like real life. We have to look at the reasons why it would happen. I can think of a few-

The Lyanna parallel that is set up with Arya

The preamble to the sex scene where Gendry reveals his father's identity and that Mel wanted his blood

We also have the whole 'seed is strong' stuff, and Robert having 20 bastard children. In the rules of storytelling that could pay off

The 'prophecy' of the two houses coming together was to be 'bound by blood' to rule.

His alias, 'Clovis' in real life was the founder of a dynasty

Season 2 episode 1 begins with the murder of Robert's bastards. His blood got Ned killed, in a way there were other factors. The discovery of him (and others but he's the one we see mainly) by Jon Arryn started wheels turning. The bastards of Robert, the secret Ned uncovered, it hasn't paid off. His blood that Mel uses, 'will make Kings rise and fall' but it seems to be a light show and nothing more. But maybe Mel is right and as usual in the wrong way. The King that rises could be his son (his blood), the king that falls could be Jon (but he doesn't want it anyway). Its Rhaegar vs Robert 2.0. But this just me spitballing. He may die just to send Arya on a spiral and that is that. 

[LadyNoOne]

20 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I also liked that there wasn't CGI flash.  I've always appreciated character development in this story, over spectacle.  The problem for me was that what could have been some very poignant scenes fell a bit flat for me.  There were a few sweet moments (cut far too short).  And while having sex might be a normal reaction to "I might die tomorrow", I thought Arya was the wrong person to fill that role.  It just doesn't make sense to me that THAT is what she most wants to experience on her maybe-last-night.  A lot of stuff felt a bit thrown together to me and just not good enough, since this is going to be the last time we really hear from some of these characters.  There are too many characters left and not enough time to do them justice, and when they do have 'their moment', the script writing is too poor to be memorable or they focus on the wrong subject/don't spend those characters time wisely. 

This season in particular, I thought for sure that Arya had feelings for Gandry.  It is in her eyes.  I don't think she just wanted to perhaps die a virgin.  I think she wanted to die having made love with him.  Cheers,

[Greenmonsterff]

20 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

100% yes. I said in another forum referring to Season 7, I would have loved to have had a full 10 episode season so we could have had more dinners, conversations, etc.  The things that I originally thought were the most boring parts of the show and book series are now the parts I love the most 

Dinners, conversations, plotting, planning, basically playing the Game of Thrones. Yes! That was what made this show such a hit. The dragons and White Walkers are cool. But, really, it always comes back to the characters. 

[Kajjo]

14 minutes ago, Greenmonsterff said:

Dinners, conversations, plotting, planning, basically playing the Game of Thrones. Yes! That was what made this show such a hit. The dragons and White Walkers are cool. But, really, it always comes back to the characters. 

This!

Yes, it was about witty dialogues, about provovative sexual content, violence, about being as close to reality as a phantasy series can get.

The decisive aspect is the complexity of the characters. Almost no back-and-white, very complex, deep, fine details. So many characters you really want to see again, whether you like or despise them, they feel real.

[Lady Rhodes]

I think, too, this is why A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is one of the better episodes in a while.  It was an intimate picture of the people.  I am very sad when I think that so many of them are going to be dead come next week.