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Killing of the NK


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So since last season, it has been stated that they need to take out the NK and the entire AOTD will crumble (which would make sense since killing some WW killed some undead). I feel like they are stressing this a little too hard in the show, I wonder if killing him will not have the result they expect. Any thoughts?

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36 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I feel like they are stressing this a little too hard in the show, I wonder if killing him will not have the result they expect. Any thoughts?

My personal feeling (speculation) all along was that killing the Nightking does not necessarily kill of White Walkers.

We know that if a White Walker is killed, all wights crumble away that were raised by him. But wights are raised from dead beings and are under the control of the White Walker.

In turn, the White Walkers were created by the Nightking from living babies and are not directly controlled by him. The White Walkers have emotions, are self-controlled, fight on your own. It might be that White Walkers die if the Nightking dies, but it might also be not the case.

Further, we not even know whether all White Walkers can create new White Walkers or only the Nightking has this ability. For me it makes sense if all WW could create new WW. Why should the NK be so special?

However, the number of WW is limited. There are several dozens, but not hundred thousands of them. So maybe they kill the Nightking and only his wights die, but other WW and their wights continue. Then they would have to target all WW. Makes a lot sense to me.

42 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

stressing this a little too hard

I had the opposite feeling. Maybe they stress it, so that no one is surprised? I don't know how DD are ticking...

As scene like this might make some sense: Gruesome, loud battle, cries, clashing... suddenly all enemies crumble and eerie silence follows. Would be a great cinematic effect. 

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14 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said:

It would be too cheesy if a single decapitation strike takes out all the WW and the Wights. 

Beric is the only source of this idea. Hope it's a red (rahloo) herring

I agree, it will feel like such a cheat. Though I think it could be a nice build up that this is what the audience thinks and then let's say Jon kills the NK and none of them stop coming. Could be interesting.

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14 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

My personal feeling (speculation) all along was that killing the Nightking does not necessarily kill of White Walkers.

We know that if a White Walker is killed, all wights crumble away that were raised by him. But wights are raised from dead beings and are under the control of the White Walker.

In turn, the White Walkers were created by the Nightking from living babies and are not directly controlled by him. The White Walkers have emotions, are self-controlled, fight on your own. It might be that White Walkers die if the Nightking dies, but it might also be not the case. 

Further, we not even know whether all White Walkers can create new White Walkers or only the Nightking has this ability. For me it makes sense if all WW could create new WW. Why should the NK be so special?

However, the number of WW is limited. There are several dozens, but not hundred thousands of them. So maybe they kill the Nightking and only his wights die, but other WW and their wights continue. Then they would have to target all WW. Makes a lot sense to me.

I had the opposite feeling. Maybe they stress it, so that no one is surprised? I don't know how DD are ticking...

As scene like this might make some sense: Gruesome, loud battle, cries, clashing... suddenly all enemies crumble and eerie silence follows. Would be a great cinematic effect. 

It is true, we don't know if only the NK can create WW or any of them can. We have just been assuming these things. I think it would be interesting if the NK dies and the others he raised died but the other WW are fine. I could see that happening for sure.

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Perhaps the Night King will have to be killed in a very specific way.  Simply slicing through him with a Valyarin steel sword might not work, nor will the dragon fire.  If the NK is the guy we saw in that scene with the COF then maybe only a shard of dragonglass straight into the heart will be the only way to kill him and the rest of his army.

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9 minutes ago, xander_blackfyre said:

Perhaps the Night King will have to be killed in a very specific way.  Simply slicing through him with a Valyarin steel sword might not work, nor will the dragon fire.  If the NK is the guy we saw in that scene with the COF then maybe only a shard of dragonglass straight into the heart will be the only way to kill him and the rest of his army.

That's a good point too. Like Jon hits him with his sword and nothing happens. That could work well.

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The Night's King is the personification of death.  Humans cannot live forever, ergo The Night's King Cannot Be Killed.

The Last Hero was a diplomat, not a warrior.  He negotiated a truce.

The terms of the pact are up for renewal and the Night's King will withdraw when satisfactory terms on a new compromise are met.  [finite mortal life being, metaphorically, the compromise between immortality and death].

Violence is destructive.  People who fight amongst people [over the throne] are doomed [and the iron throne, metaphor for self destruction as it is, why do you think its made of swords that literally cut and draw blood from the people who sit on it? along with it]

People who reject individual ambition and prioritize the team sport of survival [i.e. Jon kneeling for the greater good] will be spared and carry humanity on.  Those who prefer to win the Game Of Thrones (i.e. Cersei) will be utterly annihilated.

 

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Yeh, the way Jon brought it up, it seemed to me like 'Well, he's got that wrong!' I think they'll find to their dismay that fire, dragonglass and Valaryan stell can take out the WWs and wights, but the NK will prove much tougher. He'll survive the Battle of Winterfell at any rate.

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2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Yeh, the way Jon brought it up, it seemed to me like 'Well, he's got that wrong!' I think they'll find to their dismay that fire, dragonglass and Valaryan stell can take out the WWs and wights, but the NK will prove much tougher. He'll survive the Battle of Winterfell at any rate.

Agreed. And I think that would be a good way to end the next episode. They strike the NK with Valaryan steal and/or a dragon to the face and he doesn't die. Be a pretty good/easy cliffhanger to get people excited for the 4th episode.

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1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think he won't be killed by traditional means - Lightbringer is needed. But what is Lightbringer? Or is it a who?

Also, did anyone notice that Bran said that the Night King had killed other Three Eyed Ravens?  How many times has this cycle happened?

I didn't notice that. I will have to go back and listen. Which would be interesting because were there more than one three eyed raven in the past? Or can they randomly appear again? If so, why does it matter if Bran dies or not?

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3 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I didn't notice that. I will have to go back and listen. Which would be interesting because were there more than one three eyed raven in the past? Or can they randomly appear again? If so, why does it matter if Bran dies or not?

I can't recall it much in the show, but I know in the books Jojen places an emphasis on the fact that Greensight is a dwindling power. Perhaps at one time it was more prevalent. 

If it is any help, the dialogue exchange happened during the battle strategy scene with all the characters.

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6 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think he won't be killed by traditional means - Lightbringer is needed. But what is Lightbringer? Or is it a who?

Also, did anyone notice that Bran said that the Night King had killed other Three Eyed Ravens?  How many times has this cycle happened?

We only saw Bloodraven who was a Targaryan born a couple of centuries ago. Given the NK has lived for 8000 years, it makes sense that he's seen off others, but that would mean he hasn't always been dormant unless there was one other at the close of the Long Night.

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4 hours ago, Kajjo said:

As scene like this might make some sense: Gruesome, loud battle, cries, clashing... suddenly all enemies crumble and eerie silence follows. Would be a great cinematic effect. 

That what happened in The Return of the King, when the One Ring went down into the lava of Mount Doom. 

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3 hours ago, Frances Bean Corbray said:

The Night's King is the personification of death.  Humans cannot live forever, ergo The Night's King Cannot Be Killed.

The Last Hero was a diplomat, not a warrior.  He negotiated a truce.

The terms of the pact are up for renewal and the Night's King will withdraw when satisfactory terms on a new compromise are met.  [finite mortal life being, metaphorically, the compromise between immortality and death].

Violence is destructive.  People who fight amongst people [over the throne] are doomed [and the iron throne, metaphor for self destruction as it is, why do you think its made of swords that literally cut and draw blood from the people who sit on it? along with it]

People who reject individual ambition and prioritize the team sport of survival [i.e. Jon kneeling for the greater good] will be spared and carry humanity on.  Those who prefer to win the Game Of Thrones (i.e. Cersei) will be utterly annihilated.

I think this is the the most cogent analysis I've seen of this.

I'd guess that the implication here would then be, perhaps, that Bran sacrifices himself to "negotiate" with the Night King, Jon is spared somehow in giving up any further ambition.  Dany nearly is killed, until she realizes that ambition to tyranny is akin to death, and then the Night King and company go south, and kill Cersei and smash King Landing along with the Iron Throne, the "root" of the evil at hand.  The Night King is satiated again, tyranny averted, they all go back to Locke's "state of nature" minus perverse "human ambition" to get in the way.

I like it, because it's the kind of simplistic philosophy this show is likely aiming for...

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5 hours ago, btfu806 said:

So since last season, it has been stated that they need to take out the NK and the entire AOTD will crumble (which would make sense since killing some WW killed some undead). I feel like they are stressing this a little too hard in the show, I wonder if killing him will not have the result they expect. Any thoughts?

It would be like in Attack of the Clones when all the droids die all at once during battle. I think there was a similar ending in one of the Marvel movies.

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Honestly I feel like the fight is not in our heroes' favor even with this instant win card.  Personally it seems like they will need to take advantage of it because otherwise they won't have a chance.  We haven't seen the Night King fight, as far as I can recall, so it is hard to say how strong of an opponent he is.  But it is probably likely, since he is so old, that he could easily defeat any of our fighters in single combat.

Plus he has a dragon of his own which is probably harder to take down than Rhaegal or Drogon because Viserion is already dead.  And I don't think we have any anti dragon weapons so in order to combat Viserion our dragons would have to take to the field which could make them vulnerable.

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4 hours ago, Frances Bean Corbray said:

The Night's King is the personification of death.  Humans cannot live forever, ergo The Night's King Cannot Be Killed.

The Last Hero was a diplomat, not a warrior.  He negotiated a truce.

The terms of the pact are up for renewal and the Night's King will withdraw when satisfactory terms on a new compromise are met.  [finite mortal life being, metaphorically, the compromise between immortality and death].

Violence is destructive.  People who fight amongst people [over the throne] are doomed [and the iron throne, metaphor for self destruction as it is, why do you think its made of swords that literally cut and draw blood from the people who sit on it? along with it]

People who reject individual ambition and prioritize the team sport of survival [i.e. Jon kneeling for the greater good] will be spared and carry humanity on.  Those who prefer to win the Game Of Thrones (i.e. Cersei) will be utterly annihilated.

 

This is a good book theory, but won't work in the show, unless the writers/showrunners are doing some outright lying. they've stated that the night King is the personification of evil, and that he doesn't speak. Pretty hard to negotiate a truce in that scenario. 

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1 hour ago, Zorral said:

That what happened in The Return of the King, when the One Ring went down into the lava of Mount Doom. 

Og in Return of the Mummy, when Rick kills  the Scorpion King.... So it could be very cheesy. 

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