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So, if Jaime can be forgiven . . .?

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6 hours ago, darmody said:

That's where he hides the candied plums. (Which are the secret to intelligence work in Westeros.)

Better question: why does he even exist? He serves no purpose. 

Not anymore, he doesn't. He has become irrelevant, and that's a bummer.

 

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1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

Not anymore, he doesn't. He has become irrelevant, and that's a bummer.

 

Someone needs to be the butt of Tyrion's jokes, and everyone else would step on him.

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I'm not sure if Jamie is really "forgiven" as such. It seemed more like they put the whole thing on hold for now, due to some extreme circumstances. 

I'd also expect Jon and especially Davos, to be more angry with Melissandre than what Daenerys and Sansa are with Jamie. 
(Yes yes, he killed Dany's father, but deep down she knows what a monster he was, even if she seemed to have temporarily forgotten it during that scene.)

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10 hours ago, darmody said:

The weather did let up, didn't it?

Which could have happened coinsidentially (its the same when people pray for very ill persons; sometimes these persones get over it; but does that prove that prayers help ill people). On the other hand burning a child did cost Stannis a lot of men and horses and made and unfavorable battle into a hopeless one. So the red god must really favor Stannis for that to happen...

 

8 hours ago, darmody said:

Haven't we established that Varys' "someone has to think of the realm" stuff is nonsense? He started out the show promoting Danny's creepy brother over Robert. I don't see how the realm is better off without Robert.

 

Did he? I remember that his best friend Illyrio Mopatis sold Daenerys to a Dothraki horselord to please him and make favorable business. Then he let our diplomatic genius aka Viserys travel with him until he gets his promised army. The chances for that to end well (with Viserys and a big army behind him) were small to non-existent.

And Robert was not a good king. Okay, he wasn't as bad as other kings, but he clearly wasn't good at ruling.

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I kind of expected her to come back to fight the WW, using her magic... And that she would then die. After all the stuff about "bringing fire and ice together" and meddling with the Azor Ahai thing, it would be weird is she wouldn't return for the big fight at the end. Secretly hoping she will return just on time, with a small army of red priests from Volantis...

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17 minutes ago, Lot Seven said:

I kind of expected her to come back to fight the WW, using her magic... And that she would then die.

I expect Melisandre to arrive after the battle of E3. I don't expect the battle to clear eveything up, so there is enough left for her to do.

I expect the Nightking not to be beaten, because probably he can only be beaten with Lightbringer. However, many WW and wights will be dead, as well as many of our protagonists.

 

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14 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I expect Melisandre to arrive after the battle of E3. I don't expect the battle to clear eveything up, so there is enough left for her to do.

That would be more logical then her arriving last minute before the battle!

15 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I expect the Nightking not to be beaten, because probably he can only be beaten with Lightbringer.

Yes, otherwise it would all seem too easy... So maybe Mel will help to solve the problem of killing the Night King...

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12 hours ago, Haskelltier said:

Did he? I remember that his best friend Illyrio Mopatis sold Daenerys to a Dothraki horselord to please him and make favorable business. Then he let our diplomatic genius aka Viserys travel with him until he gets his promised army. The chances for that to end well (with Viserys and a big army behind him) were small to non-existent.

And Robert was not a good king. Okay, he wasn't as bad as other kings, but he clearly wasn't good at ruling.

If he wasn't planning to bring over a Dothraki army with Viserys nominally at its head, what was he doing? Certainly not grooming Danny. 

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9 hours ago, darmody said:

If he wasn't planning to bring over a Dothraki army with Viserys nominally at its head, what was he doing? Certainly not grooming Danny. 

Right. In the books Varys and Illyrio were grooming (fake) Aegon. And in the show, they weren't pushing for Viserys or Daenerys at the beginning either. Because Viserys was an incompentent brute who took after his father and Daenerys was a child, who knew next to nothing and showed little promise. Its likely that this changed only after Daenerys hatched her dragons. You can see that when Robert commanded the death of Daenerys and Varys did next to nothing to prevent the wineseller from being successful (it was pure luck for Daenerys that Jorah had a change of heart and did no longer want a royal pardon or otherwise she would be dead).

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On 4/24/2019 at 8:43 PM, lakin1013 said:

What we cannot know is if the weather was going to change, no matter what. 

This is true of any vision or prophecy.  In show and books they have real powers. Easy enough to believe what they did is what broke the weather.

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On 4/25/2019 at 5:49 AM, Haskelltier said:

And Robert was not a good king. Okay, he wasn't as bad as other kings, but he clearly wasn't good at ruling.

He wasn't a good king, but him being there did provide stability, didn't it?  There was certainly a domino effect after he died of events that cost thousands of lives.  So him being in power seems like it WAS for the good of the realm.  From the smallfolks perspective, from the bannermen's perspective, etc. 

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Posted (edited)

Of the crimes Jaime was accused off:

Slaying the king:

He had an oath to the king as his kingguard but he also had an oath to the gods as a knight to protect the weak etc etc. He had a strong case for arguing those oaths were in conflict when Aeyrs threatened to burn Kings Landing thus he deemed his oath to the gods to have the greater claim to him at that point. 

In terms of attacking Neddard Stark:

It was not an attack on house Stark but an attack on the Hand of the King and a breach of the King's Peace, he had already stood before the King (Robert) on that matter and had been accepted back into the King's Peace. 

The show did not really cover this in any detail as it had no time. It was all done and dusted as fast as possible. 

In story terms he had grown as a person and was now seeking to amend his previous behaviour. 

Melisandre of Asshai has no such defences by the laws and customs of Westeros. They do not recognise her god or prophecy as a valid motivation for murder. 

Edited by ferrelhadley

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19 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

He wasn't a good king, but him being there did provide stability, didn't it?  There was certainly a domino effect after he died of events that cost thousands of lives.

In my opinion the loss of stability after Robert's death came not from him being the pillar, which gave the realm stability, but because there were other ambitious, powerhungry and stubborn people, who were following their own goals. We have Littlefinger, who wanted caos, so that he can rise. We have Tywin, who wanted to build a legacy for himself and his house. We have the Tyrells with their feeling of inferiority (they were only stewards before Aegon's Conquest), who wanted to made Margaery queen. We have the two Baratheons, who couldn't suffer each other, didn't want to work together and both wanted to be king. And we have the Northerners, who don't really fit with the rest and couldn't stand Joffrey, who murdered their lord.

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5 minutes ago, Haskelltier said:

In my opinion the loss of stability after Robert's death came not from him being the pillar, which gave the realm stability, but because there were other ambitious, powerhungry and stubborn people, who were following their own goals. We have Littlefinger, who wanted caos, so that he can rise. We have Tywin, who wanted to build a legacy for himself and his house. We have the Tyrells with their feeling of inferiority (they were only stewards before Aegon's Conquest), who wanted to made Margaery queen. We have the two Baratheons, who couldn't suffer each other, didn't want to work together and both wanted to be king. And we have the Northerners, who don't really fit with the rest and couldn't stand Joffrey, who murdered their lord.

Yes, but removing Robert still lead to a power vacuum which resulted in a lot of chaos and death.  I wasn't responding about whether he was good or not, but what happened as a result of his death.  My original post was responding to the discussion about whether Varys really was acting for "the good of the realm".  The death of Robert didn't end up being very good for the realm.  

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1 hour ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Yes, but removing Robert still lead to a power vacuum which resulted in a lot of chaos and death.  I wasn't responding about whether he was good or not, but what happened as a result of his death.  My original post was responding to the discussion about whether Varys really was acting for "the good of the realm".  The death of Robert didn't end up being very good for the realm.  

Robert emptied a full treasury and left the realm deep in debt. He put people like Varys or Littlefinger into his small council and left them nearly unchecked. He let his Hands govern the realm while he was drinking and whoring. The influence of the Lannisters grew steadily and he acted often very short-sighted. When there was a problem, he went hunting or "solved" the problem in the fastest, easiest possible way, which could lead to more problems in the long run.

Yes, his reign seemed to be stable and good, but that could have changed easily in a few more years. The Iron Bank might want their money back. Stannis might have made it public, that Robert's children weren't his. What would have happened, if he tried Cersei for her crimes? Or what would have happened, when he died in a few years and his promising (cruel, incapable) son would be king?

Varys talk about "the good of the realm" is at best only half the truth. He clearly wants somebody in the throne he can control and influence. But that doesn't change that Robert's reign was far more fragile than it seemed on first sight.

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22 minutes ago, Haskelltier said:

Varys talk about "the good of the realm" is at best only half the truth. He clearly wants somebody in the throne he can control and influence. But that doesn't change that Robert's reign was far more fragile than it seemed on first sight.

Yes, I think its true that Robert's reign and the peace that existed was precarious.  But yup, I also agree that Varys talk about the good of the realm was kind of BS.  

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I think that Jon Arryn was the lynchpin that held Robert's regime together.  Remove Jon Arryn (as Littlefinger and Lysa did) and things fall apart, the center (the kingship, Robert's rule) cannot hold.  Robert made poor choices and trusted others to fix everything while he continued to hunt and fool around with whores.  His choice to make Ned his Hand was a leap of faith (he loved and trusted Ned) that ultimately failed.  But even if Jon Arryn had lived; the only chance the new Baratheon dynasty would have had was if Jon had lived another 10-15 years and someone had the foresight to quietly assassinate Joffrey so that an adult Tommen would succeed Robert, hopefully with good advisors.  But even then, there would have been the threat of Daenerys and her three dragons.

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