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Favorite new character introduced in Fire and Blood?


Sir Jackson

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4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Rhaena, and its not especially close either. None of the other characters, particularly the females i have to sadly say, come close to the level of complexity and nuance she has. 

I’m hoping volume II is better on that front, especially with Baela and (heh) Rhaena initially but there should be tons of interesting women. I mean, I’d hope we get more on, for example, Daena the Defiant than “She was born, she lived, she did a few things, she died of childbirth complications”

Considering that Rhaena and Garmund are going to give the extended royal family six daughters there should be quite a few royal women who could play a role in the years to come - and one imagines that the second Laena Velaryon and other children of Alyn and Baela are also going to leave their mark on history.

For their sake - and the sake of Aegon III's children - one hopes FaB II is not just going to race through the reigns of the later kings. Especially Elaena Targaryen should become one of the great politicians of her age. She might still be around during the reign of Aerys I considering that George implied she grew at least to the age of seventy - which she would only reach in 220 AC.

Daena should be crucial for her story but all signs we have at this point imply she died young. Likely not in the wake of Daemon's birth but even that's a possibility. We don't know whether she raised her son or whether Daemon Waters simply grew up as a royal ward. It appears she was no longer around when Aegon IV acknowledged Daemon as his own son and gave him Blackfyre.

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52 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Blood and Cheese.  I'm very partial to Princess Rhaenyra and Daemon.  

Well, I must say I was pretty horrified at Alicent's desire to bathe in the blood of Blood's family. We don't get a source for that, but considering that Alicent is usually not described as that vindictive a person until after the end of the Dance, this might really shed a little bit of light on her actual persona beneath the smiles.

And it is not that Alicent would be alone in her vindictiveness here - Alyssa Velaryon also collected hands and heads and was well pleased with them, making it clear that the picture of her being 'as weak as her husband' (spread by Lord Rogar and, in part, by Gyldayn, too) is not exactly based on facts. She was the one who wanted to deal harshly with Maegor's supporters and the weakling was Rogar the Windbag who was not just afraid of putting down Maegor's few remaining loyalists but also to challenge the Rowans and Oakhears in the field.

Those signs that women can - and were - as vindictive and cruel as the men in the series is somewhat refreshing to read.

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23 hours ago, Sir Jackson said:

@Adam Yozza God your right, Peake was the worst. I wish he had gotten his just deserts. Aemond One Eyed was a prick to. I don't remember hearing about Tyland Lannister previously but he was a great Hand. I usually have a good memory for the things I read but I haven't read the books in a while now. 

I Forgot to mention Elissa. The Hightower brothers story on their expedition was damn cool.

@Vaith & @James Steller- excellent points on the northmen. And yes, Aegon III definitely counts, as before he was more of a name with a blank face. This book provided the personality and colors we previously lacked. I never heard about that bit with the northern raiders being cut.

Anything specific you guys would want explained/covered in the proposed 2nd volume? More on Roberts and Greyjoys Rebellion, perhaps? Although the Mad Kings reign has been covered in some detail already.  

 

I want the 1st and 3rd Blackfyre rebellions covered pretty well in f&b volume 2. For the 1st Blackfyre rebellion, i want the build up before the war started and all the battles that took place. Really for the 3rd Blackfyre rebellion, I just want to know if Haegon fought with Blackfyre. We probably won't get that though in volume 2. 

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18 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I want the 1st and 3rd Blackfyre rebellions covered pretty well in f&b volume 2. For the 1st Blackfyre rebellion, i want the build up before the war started and all the battles that took place. Really for the 3rd Blackfyre rebellion, I just want to know if Haegon fought with Blackfyre. We probably won't get that though in volume 2. 

If he didn't then the very words 'Blackfyre pretenders/House Blackfyre' and 'the sword of kings' would be a joke. It was already a stretch that Daemon II didn't have his father's sword, but if the king Bittersteel made after him and whom he definitely supported during the Third Rebellion didn't wield the sword Blackfyre then this would be hilarious.

Chances are very high the Targaryens regained the sword during the Third Rebellion - if not, they would have during the Fourth or on the Stepstones, since neither Daemon III nor Maelys seem to have died in a manner that would have allowed anyone to take up the sword and carry it to safety. And this happening four times - on the Redgrass Field, the Third Rebellion, the Battle of the Wendwater (which was a truly crushing defeat for the Blackfyres!), and Maelys' duel with Barristan Selmy (which he, at least on the picture in TWoIaF did not fight with a sword but a morningstar) - would, perhaps, make for great comedy or satire, but it wouldn't be a believable scenario.

But I really hope FaB II is not going to spoil anything after the reign of Daeron II. Haegon is for Dunk & Egg, not FaB.

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Alyssa was great and could have been much better had she not been killed - her death basically served no point. Her mother's death in childbirth had a narrative purpose and Daella's, too, but Alyssa was just nonsensical. Why not have her live into the reign of her son?

 

@Lord Varys, I normally agree with a lot of what you post, but in this case, I think it was necessary for Alyssa to die.  

Had she lived, she may have had more children which might have included daughters which may have changed her sons' wedding plans.

Even if she didn't have any more children, she might have been able to mitigate Viserys' "people pleasing" tendencies and Daemon's "roguish " ones.  

Finally, if she had lived into Visery's reign she would have been at court during Baelon's tenure as Hand and had an insight into court maneuvering that Viserys and Daemon lacked.

Does anybody really think that if Alyssa were alive she would have allowed Alicent Hightower and the rest of her scheming family to get their hooks into Viserys?

In other words, a long-lived Alyssa Targayean probably means no Dance, no death of the Dragons, and in the end not much of a story or world.

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4 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

In other words, a long-lived Alyssa Targayean probably means no Dance, no death of the Dragons, and in the end not much of a story or world.

Ah, well, I don't think so. Or rather: There are a lot of possibilities for George to prevent that, like her remarrying and not living at court, her and Viserys I having some falling-out, etc. Or, you know, her becoming Otto Hightower's second wife. How would that have looked like ;-)?

Also, considering her character, she could also have died of some other cause and later in life. She was very bold and adventurous. She could have died during the Fourth Dornish War, say, or helping to Aemon. She could have flown to war with Daemon on the Stepstones to die there, etc.

Having her die in childbirth was just lazy.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If he didn't then the very words 'Blackfyre pretenders/House Blackfyre' and 'the sword of kings' would be a joke. It was already a stretch that Daemon II didn't have his father's sword, but if the king Bittersteel made after him and whom he definitely supported during the Third Rebellion didn't wield the sword Blackfyre then this would be hilarious.

Chances are very high the Targaryens regained the sword during the Third Rebellion - if not, they would have during the Fourth or on the Stepstones, since neither Daemon III nor Maelys seem to have died in a manner that would have allowed anyone to take up the sword and carry it to safety. And this happening four times - on the Redgrass Field, the Third Rebellion, the Battle of the Wendwater (which was a truly crushing defeat for the Blackfyres!), and Maelys' duel with Barristan Selmy (which he, at least on the picture in TWoIaF did not fight with a sword but a morningstar) - would, perhaps, make for great comedy or satire, but it wouldn't be a believable scenario.

But I really hope FaB II is not going to spoil anything after the reign of Daeron II. Haegon is for Dunk & Egg, not FaB.

 I believe Haegon fought with Blackfyre during the 3rd Blackfyre rebellion. It would make sense if Haegon did and wouldn't if he didn't. I just want it confirmed in FaB volume 2. Storywise it would make sense for the Targs to have regained Blackfyre during one of the rebellion or having Aegon show up with a sword last known to have ties to the Blackfyre pretenders ( if you believe Blackfyre is in one of the chest given to Aegon) and the Golden company a company with deep ties to house Blackfyre would look a little weird. The one thing that has always bothered me about the Targs, if they did regain Blackfyre. Is it doesn't look/feel like getting it back was a big deal to them. Idk, it just seems odd to me. Now maybe GRRM couldn't make a big deal  because it would spoil something in the last 2 book.

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17 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

 I believe Haegon fought with Blackfyre during the 3rd Blackfyre rebellion. It would make sense if Haegon did and wouldn't if he didn't. I just want it confirmed in FaB volume 2. Storywise it would make sense for the Targs to have regained Blackfyre during one of the rebellion or having Aegon show up with a sword last known to have ties to the Blackfyre pretenders ( if you believe Blackfyre is in one of the chest given to Aegon) and the Golden company a company with deep ties to house Blackfyre would look a little weird. The one thing that has always bothered me about the Targs, if they did regain Blackfyre. Is it doesn't look/feel like getting it back was a big deal to them. Idk, it just seems odd to me. Now maybe GRRM couldn't make a big deal  because it would spoil something in the last 2 book.

Maybe they got it back in the fourth Blackfyre rebellion and then it disappeared at Summerhall?

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5 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Maybe they got it back in the fourth Blackfyre rebellion and then it disappeared at Summerhall?

If they got it back, then the Targaryens likely had it until Aerys II day. It would have disappeared during the Sack, making it the ideal token for Aegon to vouch for his identity. After all, if Varys could still the sword he could likely also steal the prince, no?

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6 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Maybe they got it back in the fourth Blackfyre rebellion and then it disappeared at Summerhall?

Either the 3rd or 4th Blackfyre rebellion. Both could work and it looks like those two times would've been the only times the Targs could've gotten the sword back. As to how they lost it. I like @Lord Varys idea about Varys taking it during the Sack, a idea he brought up a while ago.

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3 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Either the 3rd or 4th Blackfyre rebellion. Both could work and it looks like those two times would've been the only times the Targs could've gotten the sword back. As to how they lost it. I like @Lord Varys idea about Varys taking it during the Sack, a idea he brought up a while ago.

I think it would be more likely to assume it happened during the Third Rebellion considering that this was the moment when Haegon Blackfyre actually gave up his sword - which most likely was Blackfyre. The fact that Daemon III may have been just a Blackfyre pretender without Blackfyre could also help explain why he basically got no support at all in 236 AC.

After all, if it had remained with Maelys until the end then it shouldn't be in some chest of Illyrio's but rather in the possession of Harry Strickland as captain-general of the Golden Company. After all, with the Blackfyres dead then sword should have ended up in the possessions of the leadership of the Golden Company.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think it would be more likely to assume it happened during the Third Rebellion considering that this was the moment when Haegon Blackfyre actually gave up his sword - which most likely was Blackfyre. The fact that Daemon III may have been just a Blackfyre pretender without Blackfyre could also help explain why he basically got no support at all in 236 AC.

After all, if it had remained with Maelys until the end then it shouldn't be in some chest of Illyrio's but rather in the possession of Harry Strickland as captain-general of the Golden Company. After all, with the Blackfyres dead then sword should have ended up in the possessions of the leadership of the Golden Company.

Although I agree its most likely the Targs would've regained Blackfyre after the 3rd rebellion. I"m not going to rule out that it could've happened in the 4th rebellion. Daemon III may not have given his sword up like Haegon but he was killed in single combat by Dunk. After Daemon III death, Dunk or any Targ supporter could have easily recovered Blackfyre and returned it to House Targaryen. It's not as likely but something like that could've happened during the 4th rebellion. 

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42 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Although I agree its most likely the Targs would've regained Blackfyre after the 3rd rebellion. I"m not going to rule out that it could've happened in the 4th rebellion. Daemon III may not have given his sword up like Haegon but he was killed in single combat by Dunk. After Daemon III death, Dunk or any Targ supporter could have easily recovered Blackfyre and returned it to House Targaryen. It's not as likely but something like that could've happened during the 4th rebellion. 

Sure, it is possible, too. However, we don't know that Duncan and Daemon III did fight in single combat. All we know is that Duncan slew Daemon III. Could be a variation of Robert and Rhaegar, Daemon I and Gwayne Corbray, etc. - or just Dunk's lance hitting home during a charge, or his morningstar dealing the pretender a deadly blow to the head. In such a scenario it would be more believable - although still pretty trite, in my opinion - that some Blackfyre loyalist could recover the sword and get away with it before the Targaryens had secured all the corpses.

Selmy slaying Maelys the Monstrous seems to be sort of confirmed as a 'single combat scenario' so here the chances would also be pretty high that the Targaryens would have recovered the sword afterwards if Maelys still had it and fought with it (which doesn't seem to be the case in the picture in TWoIaF).

But the best scenario there is still the Third Rebellion and Haegon. He gave up his sword when he was captured/yielding, meaning whoever captured Haegon Blackfyre likely also took possession of the sword Blackfyre. And since the fact that Bittersteel was also defeated by Bloodraven in another duel and subsequently presented to King Aerys I who sat in judgment over him, we can, I think, safely say that the Third Rebellion ended in a complete Targaryen victory. The fact that Haegon was murdered implies that the Blackfyres really raised the ire of some person/people during the war, but it seems that while it may have been a close thing it was, in the end, a clear Targaryen victory. And that simply doesn't make it very likely that somebody could steal Blackfyre to return it to Bittersteel later.

In that sense, I prefer the Third Rebellion for such a setting, however I'm completely on board with the idea that it may have happened during a later rebellion.

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On 4/25/2019 at 9:00 AM, Lord Varys said:

About Alicent and Otto and all the other luminaries during the reign of Viserys I I'd have liked to learn more. But, yeah, her last days sort of hammer home the fact that she never loved Viserys I and that this entire thing had just been power grab. What do you make of her memories of Jaehaerys I? Did they have an affair, or was this just her idealizing happy memories of her youth when she had just come to the Red Keep?

I don't think Jaehaerys would have slept with Alicent. He was convinced that she was one of his daughters, and he never showed any interest in anyone except Alysanne. Even when they were fighting and not seeing each other, he refused the sexual advances of other, younger women. I think Alicent was just going nuts and thinking back to happier times, when all she had to do was read bedtime stories to a dying old man.

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7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I don't think Jaehaerys would have slept with Alicent. He was convinced that she was one of his daughters, and he never showed any interest in anyone except Alysanne. Even when they were fighting and not seeing each other, he refused the sexual advances of other, younger women. I think Alicent was just going nuts and thinking back to happier times, when all she had to do was read bedtime stories to a dying old man.

That is not unlikely, but there is the possibility that the old man also mistook her for a young and gorgeous Alysanne in his last weeks, no? Also, there is the aspect of nurses and the like also providing sexual services to powerful old man. That kind of thing did happen.

But even if nothing sexual happened there there is certainly a chance that Alicent actually fell in love with/was very fond of the Old King and always had this giant to compare average Viserys I to. Could be part of the reason why there was never any love on her part there.

If she had loved Viserys I then a lot of happy memories should have been from her first couple of years with him, and the happiness that came with the children. But apparently there was nothing of that sort. Before FaB I really had the benefit of the doubt where she was concerned, thinking that, perhaps, Otto was the driving force behind their attempted power grab. But the way it looks now Alicent most definitely was the driving force behind the Dance.

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not unlikely, but there is the possibility that the old man also mistook her for a young and gorgeous Alysanne in his last weeks, no? Also, there is the aspect of nurses and the like also providing sexual services to powerful old man. That kind of thing did happen.

But even if nothing sexual happened there there is certainly a chance that Alicent actually fell in love with/was very fond of the Old King and always had this giant to compare average Viserys I to. Could be part of the reason why there was never any love on her part there.

If she had loved Viserys I then a lot of happy memories should have been from her first couple of years with him, and the happiness that came with the children. But apparently there was nothing of that sort. Before FaB I really had the benefit of the doubt where she was concerned, thinking that, perhaps, Otto was the driving force behind their attempted power grab. But the way it looks now Alicent most definitely was the driving force behind the Dance. 

I like that Alicent was the driving force behind the Dance, don't get me wrong. It's great that women once again become their own agents, even when it causes them to war with each other like Alicent and Rhaenyra did. It makes for better storytelling rather than if Otto was just manipulating Alicent like a puppet (not saying he didn't have a role to play, but you know what I mean). Anyway, as to what you pointed out about nurses, no, I'm still not buying that a sickly, dying old Jaehaerys had it in him to be sexually pleasured by a woman he clearly thought was his daughter (GRRM never states that he thinks Alicent is Alysanne, only his daughter, so I won't bother filling in that kind of gap).

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