Rant and Rave at Show Tyrion (not to be confused with Book Tyrion)

[Ser Hedge]

At the beginning of season 7, Dany has the Unsullied, the Dothraki, a small Iron Born faction, a large fleet captured from the Yunka'i (not clear if they are naval ships equipped to fight at sea, but at the least they are useful as troop carriers), the support of House Martell (led by the former paramour of one of the princes after killing the lord and his legitimate heir, but whatever) and House Tyrell. She also has 3 Dragons and had displayed an ability hitherto unknown in-universe to lead the two Dragons she is not riding into combat alongside her mount. (In Fire and Blood, Daemon is able to get Vhagar to fly alongside him on Caraxes when he returns from Pentos, while Laena Velaryon, Vhagar's then rider, returns by ship. This apart, no one has ever been able to control more than one Dragon in the ASOIAF universe, leave alone taking three into battle).

From this position of strength, she loses pretty much everything apart from the Unsullied, the Dothraki and one of her Dragons (Rhaegal presumably no longer under her control now), with no territorial gains and no allies. The only theoretical ally, the Starks, seem to have lost the support of many of their bannermen over their allegiance to Dany, and the Lady of Winterfell, a senior high schooler called Sandra seems to be openly defying her.

All hail St. Tyrion of the show, the hand of the Queen, universally (and ad nauseum repeatedly) acclaimed to be the cleverest person alive!

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Yeah, I at least hope to see Tyrion perform one last great deed before the end of the show, otherwise they might as well have killed him off seasons ago. I still cant believe the first line in the new season was him telling yet another eunuch joke.  =/

[hewman]

Almost as if he were doing it on purpose as hand of the queen - Cersei, first of her name.

[Ser Hedge]

Losing the Iron Born fleet with the Martells (well Sands really): ok, bad luck, Aegon the conqueror lost his first naval engagement with the vale, happens.

But how does Dorne get taken out of the equation completely by this? Ok, D&D have not heard of the Yronwoods or even the Daynes, whatever. Let's just forget Dorne.

Cersei has just blown up Baelor's Sept. It should have been a piece of cake to get the blessing of the faith. Land with Dragons and Unsullied in Old Town, pay your respects at the Starry Sept and march up from there gathering support from the small folk against faithless Carol. In this scenario House Tyrell are re-inforced before they lose their gold to Carol that then pays for the golden company.

Fly to the riverlands, do a Harrenhall on the Twins (for the crime of the RW), some, if not most, river lords are going to come to your side. Dany is half Blackwood in a manner of speaking.

Take the Stormlands with unsullied, reachmen and rivermen, there's a power vacuum there anyway, many perished at the Blackwater and then with Stannis in the North.

Velaryon and Celtigar will likely have been the first to swear allegiance anyway, other houses sworn to Dragonstone would have followed, they paid allegiance to House Targaryen from before the conquest.

Now start talking to the vale. Lord Royce at WF with Sandra? Talk to the other lords. Where is the child lord anyway? Fly there, give him a ride on dragonback like Visenya did, and better bring him back to Dragonstone as a honoured guest ( I.e. hostage) if needed. All that's left is the frozen waste of the north, the Westerlands and KL. Without the Tyrell gold, how long is Carol going to keep going with her spin-off from desperate housewives? Send in agents to raise the population against the faithless sept burning evil Queen bla bla.

You didn't even have to use the Dothraki.

Exactly how idiotic can you be to end up in the current shambles where Carol used the money from the Tyrells to pay off her Iron Bank loan and hire the golden company? And you let consolidate her power in the South by withdrawing because she said she will send her army to fight the WWs? Duuuuhhhhhhhhh

 

[Ser Hedge]

1 hour ago, hewman said:

Almost as if he were doing it on purpose as hand of the queen - Cersei, first of her name.

Yeah, that might be the only way he can 'redeem' himself. "I'm not dumb, I was just betraying you"

[Hodor's Dragon]

GRRM had great respect for his clever characters. D&D clearly do not. They favor bad-ass fighters.

Every decision Tyrion has made as Dany's hand has been shallow, poorly through through, and WRONG. In the books, he talks himself out of a death sentence 3 times before breakfast on the average day.

Littlefinger allowed himself to be backed into the corner, completely helpless and begging against 2 teen-aged girls. GRRM would NEVER, EVER have let that happen. This is the big wheeler-dealer behind everything. If he dies, it won't be an anticlamactic side scene with 25% of the story still left to be told.

Roose also just stood there and let Ramsey kill him. 

Daenerys is an entirely different character in the show. And not a smart one.

[Nugget1229]

I just want him to finish the damn brothel joke!

[Vuron]

Tyrion is getting blamed for quite a bit that is out of his control.  In a battle of 2 sides, there is a winner and loser in every situation.

Taking Casterly Rock seemed like a good move.  I'm still not convinced that Cercei/Jaime would completely abandon it.

Euron destroying the Iron Fleet.  Who could have foreseen Euron being able to build 1000 ships in a month and knowing where they were.... seems a little unrealistic.

The Tyrell bannermen turning on them and attacking?  How can Tyrion possibly be blamed for that?

Cercei not sending her army north?  She told everyone at the meeting the exact same thing and they all believed her so how does that fall on Tyrion.

You want someone to blame?  How about Varys?  Where the hell are all his spies that he had in place all over the 7 kingdoms?  Nobody noticed that all the soldiers left Casterly Rock or that a entire army was marching on the Tyrells? BS.

I would have advised Dany to do one thing differently.... use the damn dragons.  Sure, burning and melting cities might be a bad thing but armies are fair game.  This is how Aegon took Westeros and she should have done the same.

 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Vuron said:

Tyrion is getting blamed for quite a bit that is out of his control.  In a battle of 2 sides, there is a winner and loser in every situation.

Taking Casterly Rock seemed like a good move.  I'm still not convinced that Cercei/Jaime would completely abandon it.

Euron destroying the Iron Fleet.  Who could have foreseen Euron being able to build 1000 ships in a month and knowing where they were.... seems a little unrealistic.

The Tyrell bannermen turning on them and attacking?  How can Tyrion possibly be blamed for that?

Cercei not sending her army north?  She told everyone at the meeting the exact same thing and they all believed her so how does that fall on Tyrion.

You want someone to blame?  How about Varys?  Where the hell are all his spies that he had in place all over the 7 kingdoms?  Nobody noticed that all the soldiers left Casterly Rock or that a entire army was marching on the Tyrells? BS.

I would have advised Dany to do one thing differently.... use the damn dragons.  Sure, burning and melting cities might be a bad thing but armies are fair game.  This is how Aegon took Westeros and she should have done the same.

 

She did wipe out a large part of the Lannister army and destroy their supplies.

And in a reality other than that of this series, capturing Casterly Rock would be a major blow against Cersei.  It would result in the loss of Lannisport and the West, and be very humiliating.

[Ser Hedge]

2 hours ago, Vuron said:

You want someone to blame?  How about Varys?  Where the hell are all his spies that he had in place all over the 7 kingdoms?  Nobody noticed that all the soldiers left Casterly Rock or that a entire army was marching on the Tyrells? BS.

Don't disagree, he forged the alliances with the Sands and with Olenna, and what exactly has he been doing after the Sands were captured by Euron? As you say, he didn't see the Tarlys rising against the Tyrells either? 

But Tyrion is the Hand and shoulders more blame for that reason. The decision to take Casterly Rock and then to abandon it cost them the Tyrells and their gold. It's also about all the things not attempted in the Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands. 

And who pushed for this asinine wight- capturing mission? If you had done the job properly, then Carol would have had Euron's fleet, KL and Casterly Rock - and nothing else.

[Ser Hedge]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

She did wipe out a large part of the Lannister army and destroy their supplies.

Now replaced with the golden company, who are better fighters than levies. No territory was gained, and part of the army was in KL already - I think it was just a rear guard, though I agree it seemed quite large to be a rear guard. And at that point, the Tyrells had been wiped out already. 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

And in a reality other than that of this series, capturing Casterly Rock would be a major blow against Cersei.  It would result in the loss of Lannisport and the West, and be very humiliating.

Except that it was promptly evacuated because 'there was no food'. The US were then marched first to KL, then shipped to the North. Dany holds no territory except Dragonstone, which will probably be taken by Euron and the GC in the next episode.

She does not seem to have any allies in the Reach, Westerlands, Riverlands, the Vale or in Dorne. Go figure.

[darmody]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

in a reality other than that of this series, capturing Casterly Rock would be a major blow against Cersei.  It would result in the loss of Lannisport and the West, and be very humiliating.

It's not so much taking the Rock as what they could be doing instead of additionally. But I don't blame Tyrion much because Urine teleporting to the other side of the continent after sailing last Dragonstone TWICE is beyond stupid. 

[darmody]

If Tyrion was smart, he would've just killed Cersei at the Zombie Summit. They had overwhelming superiority. 

Backhanded, surely, but Cersei is waaaaaay beyond the bounds of civilized behavior. 

[darmody]

1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

Now replaced with the golden company, who are better fighters than levies. No territory was gained, and part of the army was in KL already - I think it was just a rear guard, though I agree it seemed quite large to be a rear guard. And at that point, the Tyrells had been wiped out already.

Did you miss the part where Danny torched perhaps the greatest commander then living in Westeros? And if they hadn't been morons, they would've captured Jaime too. 

[BlackLightning]

Book Tyrion is probably going to be a bad guy at this point in the series (i.e. the final book) who cares about nothing and no one outside of himself and his possessions. So, instead of being stupid and making eunuch jokes, he'll just be playing Daenerys and Aegon against each other so he can take what he wants, rape and kill Cersei and still be on the winning side once the dust settles.

Granted, he might still be cracking eunuch jokes, but at least he'll have a purpose and an arc.

Then again, none of this stuff is new. The TV show version of Tyrion has been whitewashed for a long time now.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

Now replaced with the golden company, who are better fighters than levies. No territory was gained, and part of the army was in KL already - I think it was just a rear guard, though I agree it seemed quite large to be a rear guard. And at that point, the Tyrells had been wiped out already. 

Except that it was promptly evacuated because 'there was no food'. The US were then marched first to KL, then shipped to the North. Dany holds no territory except Dragonstone, which will probably be taken by Euron and the GC in the next episode.

She does not seem to have any allies in the Reach, Westerlands, Riverlands, the Vale or in Dorne. Go figure.

That's lazy writing by the producers.  In reality, Lannisport is the the third largest city in Westeros, and the West is fertile.  An army would have no difficulty feeding itself.  She probably does have allies in the Vale and Riverlands, but the series has lost interest in them.  

And, the books make plain that for a great house to lose its principal citadel is a huge blow

[Ser Hedge]

55 minutes ago, darmody said:

Did you miss the part where Danny torched perhaps the greatest commander then living in Westeros? And if they hadn't been morons, they would've captured Jaime too. 

Well Tyrion actually advised against the torching, but again, if you don't build on your gains, you have achieved nothing. Carol's now got the GC and Dany controls no lands on the mainland outside of WF. From the books we know Harry Strickland is inferior to Tarly, but he's got good commanders under him and they are one of the best fighting forces on either side of the Narrow Sea - even if they didn't bring their elephants