Electric Cars - Advise?

[lokisnow]

I’ve had a Nissan Leaf for almost five years and the battery degradation issues seem overblown from my perspective, but it is a risk. There’s a good chance that buying a certified preowned Nissan may have better protection for you against battery degradation.

my leaf has about forty thousand miles, one “bar” of capacity loss (equal to about 8 percent, or six or seven miles of lost capacity), and so is in pretty good shape.

but I’m a pretty normal driver a lot of nutty electric drivers do it for the torque and performance and so drive the cars with the petal to the metal 100% of the time (this “lets murder people” sports car mentality is why all Tesla’s all come with special battery cooling mechanisms so everyone can drive at ultra death speeds all the time). Really hard intense  driving behavior can decrease capacity.

additionally overusing DC quick charging can reduce battery capacity, but nissans battery health check can tell you how often that’s been done. So you can probably use an app and code reader to extract the same info on a used car.

tesla users have a lot of voodoo and magical thinking about batteries and charging to only mythy percent and other stuff, none of which has ever mattered to my Leaf, mostly this seems like a convenient lie to give Tesla owners the peaceful delusion that they have control over battery degradation based on minor nighttime charging behavior (therefore they don’t have to modify murderous sports car behavior). Hilariously, they’re functionally self limiting their capacity with they’re mythical sub 100% levels which makes them even less likely to know any actual lost capacity.

[Vhagar]

All I can offer is the when I worked in automotive the engineers would roll their eyes and groan whenever hybrids or electrics came up. That was years ago, though. The one im still in contact with still reacts this way, he just bought a Ford F150. Im probably not helpful, darlin'. 

[Maithanet]

A lot of car people are very dismissive of hybrids, because they are duplicative systems, which means a lot more things to go wrong.  However, electric vehicles don't have that drawback, they are in many respects much simpler than an internal combustion engine, don't require oil changes and are fairly idiot-proof. 

EVs aren't as mature a technology as ICE vehicles, that's true.  Hard to say how well something like a 2015 Leaf or a 2018 Tesla will hold up in 2030.  A Corolla or Accord is more of a sure bet in that regard. 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

2 hours ago, Loge said:

Usually the steering wheel can be adjusted as well as the seat so your problems finding a decent seating position are a bit surprising. Maybe there's something about Ford that their cars don't fit you? Have you tried other brands? Regarding the Zoe, Renault offers a rental battery with unlimited mileage (at higher rent) and you can buy the battery as well. 

Your privilege is showing.  You are talking from the perspective of someone at least 5 feet tall.  Yes I have tried other non-ford cars.  Its a common problem,  cars are not designed for very short women (note Women are shorter than men, so a very short woman has even less of the world designed with her in mind)

 

Most cars I can make some kind of adjustment to be able to drive them (an extra pillow)  and the rest of the car being a bit Meh.  I can make it work for short periods but is not something I want to own.  Yes if I was spending under 5k I'd be a lot less fussy.  Since I'm spending a fair bit of money I think its reasonable to require something that actually comfortable and practical for my height.  Just trust us shorties when we try and explain what the problems we have with being short, and don't act surprised that there are issues you've not considered.   

I remember a while back trying a car and asking if there is a way to raise the seat?  or if they have a model with height adjustment to try.  the response from normal sized people "Its got tilt, that should work for you"  Tilt is something for tall people, it goes from about flat to your Bum down and Knees up.  It don't raise the bum.  the average height sales people acted genuinely surprised when Tilt did not help.

The Leaf I sat in did something extraordinary,  It felt like someone had actually considered me when designing the car.  My size was not an afterthought.  Yes I still can't use the drivers passenger armrest, but I never expect to. but everything else was so perfectly right for me with no compromises.  this is worth a lot to me.  

there may be other cars that are also suitable but I will probably have to make some kind of compromise,  I will be trying them first though before making a final decision.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

My sister has a new Leaf and she likes it a lot. She's short too so I guess it's ok for short people. 

When it comes to range and battery size, bigger is better. Buy as big a battery as you can afford. If you go for a used Leaf, make sure it has at least the 30 kWh battery. I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy anything less than that. There are several reasons for this:

- Range decreases in cold weather, snow and in particular with higher speeds. If you only have 72 miles of range to begin with (like the 24 kWh Leaf) then you start getting awfully close to that 50 mile round trip of yours. You'll probably want some margin if you want to go shopping after work etc.

- Battery capacity does decrease a little bit with age, which additionally reduces the range. It's usually not that bad but those percents can make a big difference if you're already on the edge, or none at all if you're not.

- Fast charging is usually faster (measured in miles added per minute) for larger batteries. This has to do with the fact that the last few percents up to full charge is slower, and with a big battery you will spend a longer time in the fastest regime.

Other car options for you:

- BMW i3: high quality and fun to drive, but usually a bit pricey. Beware of the versions with small batteries. 

- VW E-Golf: surprisingly good. Like the i3 it has gotten incrementally higher battery capacity so make sure you know what you're buying.

- Renault Zoe: Main competitor to the Leaf. Lots of range for the money if you can find a 41 kWh version. Beware of the 22 kWh version. 

I know I've been talking a lot about range here, but in the still immature used electric car market, I think it's a big deal. There's a world of difference between 100 and 150 miles. By the way, use the American EPA figures for range, they're accurate. NEDC is garbage. No one gets anywhere near that range. 

[Kalbear]

I've had a leaf for something like 4 years now. I've put on 60k miles on it, easily. 

It's lost two bars of battery. That sucks, but it doesn't kill things. 

What is tough is that it eats battery like an iPhone using GPS when it's got the heater running. Its range probably cuts in half. But otherwise? It's incredibly fun to drive, handles great, even in snow, has great visibility and good UX. 

[Altherion]

12 hours ago, Maithanet said:

EVs aren't as mature a technology as ICE vehicles, that's true.  Hard to say how well something like a 2015 Leaf or a 2018 Tesla will hold up in 2030.  A Corolla or Accord is more of a sure bet in that regard. 

I very much doubt there is any electric car you can buy today that won't be noticeably inferior to comparable vehicles in, say, 2022 (i.e. three years from now). They're getting better fast: not only is the capacity of batteries growing, but the charging speeds are getting dramatically faster. For example, Tesla recently announced a revision to their charging stations that would increase the peak power delivered from 120kW to 250kW and, combined with some other improvements, cut the charging time in half. The same article has links for other forthcoming chargers which are even better (350-500kW), but of course the battery needs to be designed to take advantage of this.

That said, even given the fact that they're evolving, the ones out may be good enough depending on what you're looking for. I know people who have had first a Leaf and then a Bolt (though not as their sole car) and they're pretty nice.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, I normaly don't do this but I'd totally recommend leasing an electric instead of buying. 

[SerHaHa]

OP, I would have NO fear purchasing any of the options you're considering. A friend of my father's is a Tesla "Ranger", one of very few here in Alberta, a roaming/at home technician/mechanic.  Despite all the negative media, the Tesla cars I've seen and driven are fantastic, so much so we're getting an S next month.  We already have a plug in hybrid van as well, and have put about 20k miles on it, using almost exclusively the electric battery to run it.

My SO bought a Lexus LC500 last summer, we just got it out on the road after a long/cold winter here in central/Western Canada.  We recently drove a friend's Tesla S/P100D for a week while in Malibu last month.  SO has decided the LC500 is going out, and the model S is coming in.  I don't disagree either.

Fragile Bird - Our grocery getter/non truck winter vehicle is a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid, 2018.   It's a plug in hybrid type, very decent gas motor for long range highway trips if required still, but the vast majority of the driving with this vehicle is city, and we very rarely use up the 55km/35 mile-ish range of the battery, even in cold winter times, with electric seats/heaters going all the time.  We just use the basic charger that came with it, but with the new S coming in May sometime, I'll be installing a faster charger for both.  Right now the van will charge in about 8 or 9 hours overnight from 5 percent or lower up to 100.

It's such a fantastic vehicle, the Pacifica, not using any fuel for most of our daily city driving, 10 year/unlimited warranty on the battery/electric systems.  Very happy with it, and while I was very hesitant to get a hybrid or electric vehicle, I'm beyond sold on the technology as well as the usability.  It's  all massive pluses, and I've been a motor/gas/petrol head since I was 15 and got my first car and bike (1990 Honda VFR and a 1991 TT 300zx), and have had a long line of sports cars and 4x4 trucks in the last 30 years since then.  IMO electric/hybrid vehicles are the future.  I hope you find a plug in hybrid that suits you.  We had that Pacifica Hybrid as a loaner when another vehicle was being repaired, and we both fell in love with hybrids/electric vehicles in that week.  So much so we bought an identical van.  Us, a hybrid van, it was laughable to our friends, until they ride in it, or borrow it.  All have had a similar response as us.

 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I have just bought a Leaf.  It was lovely on the test drive, and fits me physically so well.

We did try some other makes and they could not compete with the leaf on price and fit. the Renault Zoe came close but cost an extra 5k (with buying the battery - not interested in leasing) compared to the leaf even if it extended the range by about 80 miles.  - I did seriously think about it for the extra range security but realistically I will very rarely need the extra range and I have access to other cars when I do need it.

 

[Tears of Lys]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 10:46 AM, Maithanet said:

A lot of car people are very dismissive of hybrids, because they are duplicative systems, which means a lot more things to go wrong.  However, electric vehicles don't have that drawback, they are in many respects much simpler than an internal combustion engine, don't require oil changes and are fairly idiot-proof. 

EVs aren't as mature a technology as ICE vehicles, that's true.  Hard to say how well something like a 2015 Leaf or a 2018 Tesla will hold up in 2030.  A Corolla or Accord is more of a sure bet in that regard. 

In any job classification, no one wants to have to learn a new technology, especially when they've been chugging along, working on old technology for most of their careers.  You should have seen the sneers I got when I bought one of the first Mazdas with a Wankel engine.  It was pure foolishness, of course, but I loved it.  No car has felt the same to me since - although the EVs come close.

20 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, I normaly don't do this but I'd totally recommend leasing an electric instead of buying. 

We leased a hybrid, mainly because of fear.  We lurves it. 

 

 

Congrats on your new car, Pebble!

[Fragile Bird]

Congratulations, Pebble! After you've driven it for a while tell us about it!

My problem with pure electric is the charging issue. I live in central Toronto, where the majority of people park their cars on the street. It's hard to run an extension cord out to your car! I live next door to my brother (my parents bought the house I live in in 1967 as an investment for a price that was typical back then but makes my friends who are house hunting now physically ill) and we share his driveway. We each have street permits so can swap who parks where, but realistically a plug would have to be connected to his house. I'm not sure how he'd feel about that, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. I won't be in the market for a couple of years anyway. I have always looked at gasoline hybrids because of that, but now electric vehicles seem to make more sense, especially because of the simplicity of maintenance.

I do have a garage where I would install a high-speed charger, but then again, if even better chargers may be available in a couple of years, why bother? But we have a lot of winter and shoveling out the snow pushed aside by the snow plow in the laneway in front of the garage as well as what happens out front feels like a daunting task as you get older.

If we want to move a big chunk of the population over to electric cars of some sort, the charging issue is going to have to be dealt with in cities. 

The alternative is just to give up car ownership. Right now I really hate that idea. I'm not that old yet, lol!

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

The alternative is just to give up car ownership. Right now I really hate that idea. I'm not that old yet, lol!

I was 31 when I quit car ownership!

12 years on, and no regrets

[lokisnow]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Congratulations, Pebble! After you've driven it for a while tell us about it!

My problem with pure electric is the charging issue. I live in central Toronto, where the majority of people park their cars on the street. It's hard to run an extension cord out to your car! I live next door to my brother (my parents bought the house I live in in 1967 as an investment for a price that was typical back then but makes my friends who are house hunting now physically ill) and we share his driveway. We each have street permits so can swap who parks where, but realistically a plug would have to be connected to his house. I'm not sure how he'd feel about that, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. I won't be in the market for a couple of years anyway. I have always looked at gasoline hybrids because of that, but now electric vehicles seem to make more sense, especially because of the simplicity of maintenance.

I do have a garage where I would install a high-speed charger, but then again, if even better chargers may be available in a couple of years, why bother? But we have a lot of winter and shoveling out the snow pushed aside by the snow plow in the laneway in front of the garage as well as what happens out front feels like a daunting task as you get older.

If we want to move a big chunk of the population over to electric cars of some sort, the charging issue is going to have to be dealt with in cities. 

The alternative is just to give up car ownership. Right now I really hate that idea. I'm not that old yet, lol!

Regarding home charging the tech there is not changing much nor at all in the next couple of years. The tech for psycho super fast charging is changing every four months, but a lot of that r and d is relevant only to commercial trucking who will require insanely enormous volumes of energy to fuel their unbelievably massive battery packs in the time requirements of commerce.

tesla makes a huge deal out of super chargers and the Volkswagen alliance is out installing a competing network of dc fast chargers, but using these fast chargers is pretty bad for your battery if done daily. The takeaway of those groups is that if fast charging is gonna inflict damage we might as well do it faster and harder by adding more power, so they’re doubling up fast charging speeds. But even they are likely to be capped at 350kw, just given the size of kilowatt hour battery packs on the market and projected, There’s no value to be mined in further power because the packs aren’t big enough to absorb it.

(all the above electrical stuff simplified because I don’t want to look up the actual minutia of terms and charging)

Home charging has more or less peaked at 7.2kw , and while it may go up to ten kw no actual car on the market can take 10 kw— but you can buy home kits that are 10 kw , of course. Most cars peak at home charging of 6.6 kw

even at home, you quickly learn to absolutely not care if you have any flavor of level 2 charger , because the at home differences of 4.8 kw, 5.8kw, 6.6kw, or 7.2kw (at 20, 24, 30, or 40 amps respectively) can be substantial, it doesn’t really matter because of how long your car is typically parked at home. So those small differences might seem important to maximize in the mindset of “gassing up” because you’re used to refueling taking fifteen minutes (round trip plus fueling time). But at home your car can be plugged in for sixteen hours easy, and all it needs under any of the above is three (maybe less) hours.

even just half an hour of home charging is quite convenient. I’ve gotten home with low battery, plugged in, then had to go out for an unexpected errand shortly after, and I still remain surprised at just how much even our “slow” home charger refuels the car in half an hour, always more than enough for little errands  around town.

so we got a 20 amp, 4.8kw clipper creek charger, which let meant we only needed a 30 amp breaker on our panel which was fine and had no need for any extra electrical wiring. We would have been fine with a 24 amp or even a 30 amp because we could have put in a 40 amp breaker for them, but they were sold out of the 24 amp charger at the time. 

 

[Fragile Bird]

2 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Regarding home charging the tech there is not changing much nor at all in the next couple of years. The tech for psycho super fast charging is changing every four months, but a lot of that r and d is relevant only to commercial trucking who will require insanely enormous volumes of energy to fuel their unbelievably massive battery packs in the time requirements of commerce.

tesla makes a huge deal out of super chargers and the Volkswagen alliance is out installing a competing network of dc fast chargers, but using these fast chargers is pretty bad for your battery if done daily. The takeaway of those groups is that if fast charging is gonna inflict damage we might as well do it faster and harder by adding more power, so they’re doubling up fast charging speeds. But even they are likely to be capped at 350kw, just given the size of kilowatt hour battery packs on the market and projected, There’s no value to be mined in further power because the packs aren’t big enough to absorb it.

(all the above electrical stuff simplified because I don’t want to look up the actual minutia of terms and charging)

Home charging has more or less peaked at 7.2kw , and while it may go up to ten kw no actual car on the market can take 10 kw— but you can buy home kits that are 10 kw , of course. Most cars peak at home charging of 6.6 kw

etc - snipped for length

Thanks, I did not know all that! My basic level of knowledge was about 120 v 240 plugs. I had read that 240 cuts the charging time substantially. Does that also harm the battery? The stories I've read about EVs simply talk about upgrading your plug without mentioning harming the battery, let alone the rest of your information.

2 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

I was 31 when I quit car ownership!

12 years on, and no regrets

I guess as someone who has driven for 40 years the idea of giving up car ownership is a really big thing. Independence as you get older becomes more significant, and being able to go wherever you want easily is part of it. I do know car ownership among the younger generation is down, for various reasons including the expense, no where to keep one, the environment, and so on.

It's funny. I have friends with 4 great kids who have basically been raised 'right' in every way imaginable. They all decided to turn down their parents when they offered to pay for driving courses after they turned 16. All of them said they didn't need cars living in the city. The 30 and 26 year olds now drive regularly, the 30 year old lives in a city with great transportation, Montreal, but his in-laws gave them their Honda Fit when they bought a new car, and although they would not have bought a car themselves they love having it. His wife was raised up north where getting your driver's license was a necessity. The 26 year old and his wife actually bike everywhere, even doing the 200 Km Ride for Cancer last year, biking from Toronto to Niagara Falls. She hails from Ottawa and had her license from her teens as well, and they got sick of taking the train or the bus to visit her folks so he learned to drive too. Also, they just needed a car to do stuff, taxis don't answer all needs. They use rentals, because they are trying to buy a house.

The 28 year old and her wife are taking driving lessons and the 23 year old just got her learner's permit. They all have come to realize knowing how to drive a car is damn handy. We all actually expected that sooner or later they would learn to drive.

[Spockydog]

On 4/25/2019 at 3:34 PM, Vhagar said:

All I can offer is the when I worked in automotive the engineers would roll their eyes and groan whenever hybrids or electrics came up.

That's because electric cars will, in all likelihood, put many of them out of business. 

[lokisnow]

7 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Thanks, I did not know all that! My basic level of knowledge was about 120 v 240 plugs. I had read that 240 cuts the charging time substantially. Does that also harm the battery? The stories I've read about EVs simply talk about upgrading your plug without mentioning harming the battery, let alone the rest of your information.

I guess as someone who has driven for 40 years the idea of giving up car ownership is a really big thing. Independence as you get older becomes more significant, and being able to go wherever you want easily is part of it. I do know car ownership among the younger generation is down, for various reasons including the expense, no where to keep one, the environment, and so on.

It's funny. I have friends with 4 great kids who have basically been raised 'right' in every way imaginable. They all decided to turn down their parents when they offered to pay for driving courses after they turned 16. All of them said they didn't need cars living in the city. The 30 and 26 year olds now drive regularly, the 30 year old lives in a city with great transportation, Montreal, but his in-laws gave them their Honda Fit when they bought a new car, and although they would not have bought a car themselves they love having it. His wife was raised up north where getting your driver's license was a necessity. The 26 year old and his wife actually bike everywhere, even doing the 200 Km Ride for Cancer last year, biking from Toronto to Niagara Falls. She hails from Ottawa and had her license from her teens as well, and they got sick of taking the train or the bus to visit her folks so he learned to drive too. Also, they just needed a car to do stuff, taxis don't answer all needs. They use rentals, because they are trying to buy a house.

The 28 year old and her wife are taking driving lessons and the 23 year old just got her learner's permit. They all have come to realize knowing how to drive a car is damn handy. We all actually expected that sooner or later they would learn to drive.

There’s two kinds of AC charging level 1 and level 2, both of which use the standard charging port, level 1 is 15-20 amps fed by a 110 outlet. Level 2 is 20-40 amps fed by a 220 outlet. Going from level 1 to even the lowest level 2 is quantum leap, 4x or better. From level one to a 6.6 kw level 2 is like 8x or better. Huge gains. Neither kind of AC charging will damage the battery, (so long as you’re not always plugging in when your car is like 95% and doesn’t need a charging cycle).

fast charging is DC, and it’s been very hard on batteries, mostly because of the heat, the batteries heat up to dangerous levels as you pump more energy into them super fast. 

Tesla manages this with world class battery cooling systems and super intelligent AI (like it turns on the battery cooling system if it knows you’re en route  to a super charger to pre condition the battery for super charging). Most other same generation electric cars have no battery cooling system because at driving speed, air cooling is more than sufficient (unless you drive ludicrous speeds like an insane murderous sports car person is always entitled to do). So they manage dc fast charging by throttling and tapering the charge, so you get a few minutes of fast charge followed by a long ever slowing taper of less fast charge, sort of makes a mockery of the term, and the claimed half hour is more like an hour, for example.

as the second generation of EVs are coming in, that is changing, they’re making baby steps at battery cooling tech (compared to the different planet tesla is on) but it’s a lot of investment that marginally improves road trips or allows extremely high end performance speeds (so edge cases), and may improve lifetime battery life, but who knows.

 

[Loge]

Fast charging at home probably won’t happen any soon for the simple reason that homes usually aren’t wired to let you draw that much power. Neither is the grid in residential areas.

[Inkdaub]

20 hours ago, Pebble said:

I have just bought a Leaf.  It was lovely on the test drive, and fits me physically so well.

We did try some other makes and they could not compete with the leaf on price and fit. the Renault Zoe came close but cost an extra 5k (with buying the battery - not interested in leasing) compared to the leaf even if it extended the range by about 80 miles.  - I did seriously think about it for the extra range security but realistically I will very rarely need the extra range and I have access to other cars when I do need it.

 

When I was a valet parking attendant the Leaf was my favorite electric car that wasn't a Tesla.  I hope you like it. 

[Werthead]

Quote

Would be interesting to see if you could travel the length of the UK (Great Britain I guess) hopping from charger to charger.

You can. It's been tried a few times and it's getting easier to do so. The UK benefits from being (relatively) compact and from being heavily urbanised, and the big and medium towns will usually have a few charging points. Running around in the Highlands might be a different story, but there's still charging points available.