Electric Cars - Advise?

[lokisnow]

21 hours ago, Liffguard said:

True, although I'm pretty sure that the carbon emitted by a fossil-fuel power plant generating enough electricity to power an EV is less than the amount of carbon emitted by an ICE travelling over the same distance.

No, because EV Motors are highly efficient using about 97% of energy  it draws when in use.  On the other hand a typical ICE engine is much less efficient, using only about 30% of the energy it draws when in use, meaning over two thirds of the gas you burn is waste, waste heat / unallocated energy generated from combustion, and it also means that 2/3 of the emissions from operating your car are from that inefficient waste combustion . (This is actually the basis of the MPGe calculation, btw.)

Needless to say that power plants are vastly more efficient than an ICE engine and have vastly less waste combustion to generate the energy they produce from combusting fossil fuels. Power plants also employ emissions mitigation within their various exhaust stacks meaning the emissions are even lower for charging a car.

most power plant energy waste is from baseline operations at night when demand is extremely low and the energy available goes unused.

but cars charge at night, cars are actually reducing power plant waste by harvesting the previous unused energy.

so charging from the grid is a win win: mile for mile, a grid powered EV results in less than twenty percent of the emissions that come out the exhaust pipe of an ICE car, and the EV is also harvesting waste plant energy at night which is offsetting emissions.

 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

Before switching I was paying about £60 a week in diesel  (well a Week and a Day) 

after switching I pay and extra £8 a week in electricity.  

So even though my electricity is coming from fossil fuelled power stations, I think that the vast difference in costs means I'm using less fossil fuels to power my journey to work and back every day.

Yes I know they are taxed differently, so making a direct comparison is not really that simple.  but hey saving the planet can save you money.

[Stubby]

3 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

Before switching I was paying about £60 a week in diesel  (well a Week and a Day) 

after switching I pay and extra £8 a week in electricity.  

So even though my electricity is coming from fossil fuelled power stations, I think that the vast difference in costs means I'm using less fossil fuels to power my journey to work and back every day.

Yes I know they are taxed differently, so making a direct comparison is not really that simple.  but hey saving the planet can save you money.

If we're being honest Pebs, our best electric car option is probably a golf cart.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

I didn't mean to derail the thread into an environmental impact discussion, but I want to add one more thing. 

It wouldn't matter much if a fossil fueled car under some circumstances was better, right now, regarding CO2 emissions. We need to change our society to a more sustainable model, not just because of climate change but also because we can't continue burning through the world's resources the way we're doing now. We'll run out of oil and eventually we'll run out of natural gas and coal too. 

Electric cars provide a path to sustainability - fossil fuel powered cars don't. Any problems that exist with electric cars - and I do acknowledge they exist; high prices, poor working conditions in cobalt mines, resource intensive battery production, long charging times and so on - they're all solvable. The problems of the combustion engine, on the other hand, are inherently unsolvable. A sustainable future simply cannot be based on fossil fuels. If the electric cars are not good enough, the solution is better electric cars. 

[Altherion]

12 hours ago, Stubby said:

If we're being honest Pebs, our best electric car option is probably a golf cart. 

Unlikely. Aside from the facts that almost nobody wants them and that by the time they're made street-legal, they're not much more eco-friendly than regular EVs, you have to keep in mind that they'll be operating in an environment of predominantly internal combustion cars. The "golf cart" type of EV will force cars behind it to initially slow down and then speed up to pass it which means that even if the EV itself is slightly more efficient, it more than offsets that with the extra energy expended by other cars. Electric cars don't need to be as performant as the Teslas or the Porsche Taycan, but they do need to at least match the performance of regular cars.

[Stubby]

3 hours ago, Altherion said:

Unlikely. Aside from the facts that almost nobody wants them and that by the time they're made street-legal, they're not much more eco-friendly than regular EVs, you have to keep in mind that they'll be operating in an environment of predominantly internal combustion cars. The "golf cart" type of EV will force cars behind it to initially slow down and then speed up to pass it which means that even if the EV itself is slightly more efficient, it more than offsets that with the extra energy expended by other cars. Electric cars don't need to be as performant as the Teslas or the Porsche Taycan, but they do need to at least match the performance of regular cars.

This was actually just a sledge due to our respective (lack of) height.

[Jen'ari]

On 10/10/2019 at 8:20 PM, Erik of Hazelfield said:

I didn't mean to derail the thread into an environmental impact discussion, but I want to add one more thing. 

It wouldn't matter much if a fossil fueled car under some circumstances was better, right now, regarding CO2 emissions. We need to change our society to a more sustainable model, not just because of climate change but also because we can't continue burning through the world's resources the way we're doing now. We'll run out of oil and eventually we'll run out of natural gas and coal too. 

Electric cars provide a path to sustainability - fossil fuel powered cars don't. Any problems that exist with electric cars - and I do acknowledge they exist; high prices, poor working conditions in cobalt mines, resource intensive battery production, long charging times and so on - they're all solvable. The problems of the combustion engine, on the other hand, are inherently unsolvable. A sustainable future simply cannot be based on fossil fuels. If the electric cars are not good enough, the solution is better electric cars. 

I agree with you completely, ICE cars are not sustainable, the problem is though that electric cars overall are still very much in their infancy which I think we will see a huge change with in the coming decade with car manufacturers putting their efforts into EV tech and not developing ICE cars any further-in terms of their engines anyway.

 

[Maithanet]

My trusty Corolla died yesterday.  The first and only car I've ever owned, which I bought used almost 15 years ago and took me 165k miles.  It's sad parting with a reliable vehicle, but the repairs it needs now are more than the car is worth. 

I am seriously considering getting a Leaf, and looking at prices of everything, I'm leaning toward getting a 2016 or 2017 version with a 30 kWh battery.  That seems like a good mix of reasonable price (they're running like $14k or so), low miles and reasonable battery life. 

Do people who have an EV feel like 100 miles of range is enough?  We'll have my wife's car for longer trips, so I don't think it'll be a problem, but it's a little daunting to potentially have to worry about range.  My work commute is about 30 miles roundtrip. 

Is it essential to upgrade my house with a level 2 charger?  I feel like overnight charging with level 1 should probably be sufficient, but I'm not totally sure.

I haven't test driven the Leaf yet, I will do that soon.  Are there other vehicles I ought to give a spin for comparison?  I'm looking to spend less than 25k, and ideally less than 15k. 

[Kalbear]

6 hours ago, Maithanet said:

My trusty Corolla died yesterday.  The first and only car I've ever owned, which I bought used almost 15 years ago and took me 165k miles.  It's sad parting with a reliable vehicle, but the repairs it needs now are more than the car is worth. 

I am seriously considering getting a Leaf, and looking at prices of everything, I'm leaning toward getting a 2016 or 2017 version with a 30 kWh battery.  That seems like a good mix of reasonable price (they're running like $14k or so), low miles and reasonable battery life. 

Do people who have an EV feel like 100 miles of range is enough?  We'll have my wife's car for longer trips, so I don't think it'll be a problem, but it's a little daunting to potentially have to worry about range.  My work commute is about 30 miles roundtrip. 

Is it essential to upgrade my house with a level 2 charger?  I feel like overnight charging with level 1 should probably be sufficient, but I'm not totally sure.

I haven't test driven the Leaf yet, I will do that soon.  Are there other vehicles I ought to give a spin for comparison?  I'm looking to spend less than 25k, and ideally less than 15k. 

I own a leaf. It's older, but the 2016 one doesn't have THAT much better battery life.

For starters, you won't get 100 miles range. You'll be lucky if you get 70. But that's okay, because you won't really need it. For your commute it'll be fine.

You don't need a L2 charger if all you're doing is driving to work and then driving back and recharging. If you ever think you're going to do things like get home, then go out a couple hours later, an L2 is VERY handy. Otherwise you should be good to go. 

The leaf is about the cheapest you're gonna find. They did a lot of leases that converted to buying. That said, you might consider leasing it. I kind of wish I did mine. The value of the thing after 4-5 years is going to be significantly lower - everything will have much higher battery life and more bells and whistles - so it's reasonable (if you're going to replace it at that time) to consider leasing an EV instead. And if you're doing that, you should check out the Chevy Bolt or (if you can actually do it) a Tesla 3. 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

11 hours ago, Maithanet said:

My trusty Corolla died yesterday.  The first and only car I've ever owned, which I bought used almost 15 years ago and took me 165k miles.  It's sad parting with a reliable vehicle, but the repairs it needs now are more than the car is worth. 

I am seriously considering getting a Leaf, and looking at prices of everything, I'm leaning toward getting a 2016 or 2017 version with a 30 kWh battery.  That seems like a good mix of reasonable price (they're running like $14k or so), low miles and reasonable battery life. 

Do people who have an EV feel like 100 miles of range is enough?  We'll have my wife's car for longer trips, so I don't think it'll be a problem, but it's a little daunting to potentially have to worry about range.  My work commute is about 30 miles roundtrip. 

Is it essential to upgrade my house with a level 2 charger?  I feel like overnight charging with level 1 should probably be sufficient, but I'm not totally sure.

I haven't test driven the Leaf yet, I will do that soon.  Are there other vehicles I ought to give a spin for comparison?  I'm looking to spend less than 25k, and ideally less than 15k. 

I do a 50 mile round trip,  My leaf is an older version and a 24kwh battery.  this is enough for me to mostly just charge to 80%.

for a 30 mile round trip you will have no problem, especially as you have a 2nd car available for the longer journeys.

When you do a test drive make sure you try it with the Eco button pressed.  It will feel different and you will probably normally drive most in Eco except when you need a bit more acceleration.

As for a charger,  it will charge fine overnight with a normal domestic plug but will many hours.  I guess for a 110v supply All Night.  

When I got mine with Government grants and what the dealership offered I could have gotten a free 3kw charger, but I paid £80 for a 7.5kw charger.  this charges mine to full in about 2-3 hours.  I didn't need the higher charger, I just wanted to future proof my charger for the next car when the grants are less likely to be available.  Obviously this is UK, but see if there are any grants available where you are, if the price difference is not much more then I recommend going for the better one.  It is best though to have a proper dedicated charge point rather than use a normal domestic socket.  

 

 

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I own a leaf. It's older, but the 2016 one doesn't have THAT much better battery life.

For starters, you won't get 100 miles range. You'll be lucky if you get 70. But that's okay, because you won't really need it. For your commute it'll be fine.

You don't need a L2 charger if all you're doing is driving to work and then driving back and recharging. If you ever think you're going to do things like get home, then go out a couple hours later, an L2 is VERY handy. Otherwise you should be good to go. 

The leaf is about the cheapest you're gonna find. They did a lot of leases that converted to buying. That said, you might consider leasing it. I kind of wish I did mine. The value of the thing after 4-5 years is going to be significantly lower - everything will have much higher battery life and more bells and whistles - so it's reasonable (if you're going to replace it at that time) to consider leasing an EV instead. And if you're doing that, you should check out the Chevy Bolt or (if you can actually do it) a Tesla 3. 

he should get the 100 mile with the 30KWH leaf.  I have a 24kwh leaf and get 60-70 miles on a 80% charge.  I do 50 a day, and always have 15-25% battery left.  I know it will not be as good when its cold, in winter, but so far I've just needed the 80% charge unless I'm going somewhere after work before coming home.

1 hour ago, Triskele said:

@Maithanet - Completely forget if I said this before, but I have a 2017 Leaf and like it overall, but I swear it has an insane blind spot.  The "median" for a lack of a better term that divides the windshield and the driver side window blocks a degree of your vision that is straight-up dangerous and no comparison whatsoever to any other car I've ever driven.

No idea if this is a thing they've changed with the new models but maybe something to note if/when you do a test drive.  

hmmm   this must be an issue with normal / tall people.  if you are 4'10"  the only way you see that beam is if you sit in the back seat.

[Jen'ari]

14 hours ago, Maithanet said:

My trusty Corolla died yesterday.  The first and only car I've ever owned, which I bought used almost 15 years ago and took me 165k miles.  It's sad parting with a reliable vehicle, but the repairs it needs now are more than the car is worth. 

I am seriously considering getting a Leaf, and looking at prices of everything, I'm leaning toward getting a 2016 or 2017 version with a 30 kWh battery.  That seems like a good mix of reasonable price (they're running like $14k or so), low miles and reasonable battery life. 

Do people who have an EV feel like 100 miles of range is enough?  We'll have my wife's car for longer trips, so I don't think it'll be a problem, but it's a little daunting to potentially have to worry about range.  My work commute is about 30 miles roundtrip. 

Is it essential to upgrade my house with a level 2 charger?  I feel like overnight charging with level 1 should probably be sufficient, but I'm not totally sure.

I haven't test driven the Leaf yet, I will do that soon.  Are there other vehicles I ought to give a spin for comparison?  I'm looking to spend less than 25k, and ideally less than 15k. 

Sorry to hear about the demise of your trusty Corolla .

I’m no expert on the Leaf, Pebble would no doubt be the one to ask as I know she owns one and has been very happy with it.

I just wanted to mention there is a new version of the Renault Zoe but I’m not sure if you’re based in the US or Europe as I’m not sure if it’s available in the US.

It looks like a really good car with decent range : https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe.html

 

I also agree with Pebble about getting the 7.5 kw charger I’ve had one put in and it charges up my Model S overnight which has a much larger battery than the Leaf without issue.

 

@Pebble thats Stubby I did try to top up at a public charger the other day but didn’t have the right app so decided to head home as I did have 18% charge left.

Did you find you needed to register with a few different charging companies just in case?, I haven’t done so yet but think it’s probably a good idea to as a backup.

I can use the Tesla supercharger network without issue unfortunately they’re only likely to get used on a road trip as there are none near me.

 

 

[Maithanet]

11 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The leaf is about the cheapest you're gonna find. They did a lot of leases that converted to buying. That said, you might consider leasing it. I kind of wish I did mine. The value of the thing after 4-5 years is going to be significantly lower - everything will have much higher battery life and more bells and whistles - so it's reasonable (if you're going to replace it at that time) to consider leasing an EV instead. And if you're doing that, you should check out the Chevy Bolt or (if you can actually do it) a Tesla 3. 

Why would you say you'd prefer to lease?  The models I'm looking at are 1-3 years old, and are in the 14-20k range, whereas a new Leaf costs 30k.  That seems like a good deal to me.  I don't really go in for the bells and whistles, so I'm not sure what a lease would offer me.  But at the same time, I know that leases are really popular with EVs, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.

 

3 hours ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

I just wanted to mention there is a new version of the Renault Zoe but I’m not sure if you’re based in the US or Europe as I’m not sure if it’s available in the US.

It looks like a really good car with decent range : https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe.html

I don't think the renault is sold in the US.  I've never seen one. 

 

8 hours ago, Triskele said:

@Maithanet - Completely forget if I said this before, but I have a 2017 Leaf and like it overall, but I swear it has an insane blind spot.  The "median" for a lack of a better term that divides the windshield and the driver side window blocks a degree of your vision that is straight-up dangerous and no comparison whatsoever to any other car I've ever driven.

No idea if this is a thing they've changed with the new models but maybe something to note if/when you do a test drive.  

I took a Leaf on a test drive last night and I didn't notice this in particular, although I thought the sight lines weren't great overall.  I did notice that the rear view mirror was somewhat blocking my view, which I didn't love.  It's going to be hard to match the sight lines of my 2002 Corolla, which were about as good as it gets for a sedan. 

[Maithanet]

6 hours ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

for a 30 mile round trip you will have no problem, especially as you have a 2nd car available for the longer journeys.

When you do a test drive make sure you try it with the Eco button pressed.  It will feel different and you will probably normally drive most in Eco except when you need a bit more acceleration.

As for a charger,  it will charge fine overnight with a normal domestic plug but will many hours.  I guess for a 110v supply All Night. 

Yeah, I don't think it'll be too much of a problem to have just the 110v charger.  If it is, I'll get the upgrade, but i want to see if I can go without first. 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

16 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah, I don't think it'll be too much of a problem to have just the 110v charger.  If it is, I'll get the upgrade, but i want to see if I can go without first. 

if there are grants available, it might be worth getting a proper charger anyway.  the 3 KWH charger for me was free with the combined government grant and what the dealership I bought the car of from.  These grants (if you have them) may not be available when electric cars are the norm, as they are supposed to encourage people to switch.  I say check out what is available and what it will cost before you say you don't want one.

[Jen'ari]

4 hours ago, Maithanet said:

 

 

I don't think the renault is sold in the US.  I've never seen one. 

 

 

I wasn’t sure but had my doubts they were available, I just wasn’t sure if you were based in the US or Europe, they do look like really good cars though.

Either way good luck with making the switch I hope you enjoy your new Leaf if that’s what you decide to go for .

[Maithanet]

I drove a 2016 Leaf last night, and was honestly a little underwhelmed.  It seemed fine, but parts of it felt a little cheap and it had worse sight lines, worse pickup and less space than my 2002 Corolla.  I feel like when the baseline is an 18 year old car, I shouldn't be that hard to impress. 

I think I'm gonna test drive a 2018 Leaf and a Bolt and see if I like them better.  More expensive obviously, so it will need to impress for me to go that direction.  But it actually made me wonder if I might be better getting an older leaf for like $8k and just using that for a few years while the costs and capabilities of electrics improves. 

[Kalbear]

6 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Why would you say you'd prefer to lease?  The models I'm looking at are 1-3 years old, and are in the 14-20k range, whereas a new Leaf costs 30k.  That seems like a good deal to me.  I don't really go in for the bells and whistles, so I'm not sure what a lease would offer me.  But at the same time, I know that leases are really popular with EVs, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.

 

Because for the same monthly payment I could have gotten a significantly higher-range car with more modern features and better performance, at the cost of not owning something that's probably going to be worthless. 

The issue is that EVs are changing so rapidly and dramatically that the value of owning one becomes far worse. It's like the idea of owning a computer that costs $15k. In 5 years time, is that computer going to be worth even 2K? That's the level of depreciation you're likely to see for some of these, especially the leafs. For Teslas it isn't nearly as bad, but they started with a higher quality to begin with and have a higher brand value.

Also, make sure when you test drive you get it out of eco mode so you can see how fast it accelerates. That's where it's a lot better than a Corolla.

[Maithanet]

21 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Because for the same monthly payment I could have gotten a significantly higher-range car with more modern features and better performance, at the cost of not owning something that's probably going to be worthless. 

The issue is that EVs are changing so rapidly and dramatically that the value of owning one becomes far worse. It's like the idea of owning a computer that costs $15k. In 5 years time, is that computer going to be worth even 2K? That's the level of depreciation you're likely to see for some of these, especially the leafs. For Teslas it isn't nearly as bad, but they started with a higher quality to begin with and have a higher brand value.

I get that, but a quick look at leasing options are about 10k for 3 years with a Leaf.  While that does seem appealing compared to buying it new for 30k, I think I'd rather buy a 3 year old car outright for 14k, since I'm planning on holding onto it for more than 5 years (assuming no major problems).  But I understand that any EV with range less than 150 miles is going to be virtually worthless on the resale market within just a few years. 

Quote

Also, make sure when you test drive you get it out of eco mode so you can see how fast it accelerates. That's where it's a lot better than a Corolla.

Yeah, even then it felt more or less comparable, rather than actually better. 

[Jen'ari]

Would leasing a Model 3 be a consideration or too far over budget?, I know they retail for a lot less in the US than they do here but I’m unsure if that’s inclusive of state tax etc or not.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

I'm not so sure shorter range EVs will be worthless a few years from now. They excel at one thing: to commute super cheaply. I think there'll be a demand for that in the future as well. 

Long range EVs are still expensive so I don't expect they'll flood the resale market anytime soon (or at least not the lower end of it). Teslas hold their value very well due to high demand and low supply.