Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

[red snow]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

 

 1)I quite like the idea that the European holiday in Far From Home is specifically for students coping with being snapped and missing out on five years. That way we don’t have to fudge the statistics to say that everyone just happened to get snapped.

 

2)Black Panther 2: I noticed some talk of earthquakes in the sea from Okoye but I’m not a comic buff, I don’t know what that might be implying. 

 

1) it doesn't solve the problem because anyone who wasn't snapped would be 5 years older and not at school making for an odd dynamic. 5 years is a big difference when dealing with teens in terms of life experience, particularly with an apocalypse event trauma thrown in. Unless everyone in the main cast was still snapped. I like your idea that it is a counseling trip though.

2) I read that it might be a hint at Namor and atlantis as said earthquakes were at sea and a war between wakanda has been a big arc in the comics over the last decade. Failing that, Mole-man?

[Mosi Mynn]

On 4/26/2019 at 3:59 AM, Bastard of Boston said:

I have no words, only emotions. Coy over at Collider summed this movie up perfectly. In a space where comic book movies are frequently described as "like a comic book come to life," this movie was absolutely that. It's a shame that descriptor has been overused during the decades because it's lost its luster. Other Marvel films try to evoke a specific film genre, while this film has all of the over-the-top comic book qualities -- the splash pages, the alternate timelines, the time travel to previous movies. Even though "comic book" isn't a genre, it's the best way to characterize this. Ironically, the only thing in this realm was Into the Spider-Verse.

All those women standing together in one shot? That shit is straight up comic book. It defies logic and it doesn't matter. It looks cool as hell and made my estrogen spike...I wanted to be a woman after that shot. Words I thought I'd never say.

This is a great description of the film - pure comic book. Perfect.  

[DaveSumm]

27 minutes ago, red snow said:

1) it doesn't solve the problem because anyone who wasn't snapped would be 5 years older and not at school making for an odd dynamic. 5 years is a big difference when dealing with teens in terms of life experience, particularly with an apocalypse event trauma thrown in. Unless everyone in the main cast was still snapped. I like your idea that it is a counseling trip though.

But there would be kids who were five years younger than them before the snap who were now in the same school year. You’re right though, we still have to accept that Peter, Ned, MJ, that girl who we thought was MJ, and that other kid were snapped. But it’s a handful of people and 50% odds, not at all unusual.

[red snow]

1 minute ago, DaveSumm said:

But there would be kids who were five years younger than them before the snap who were now in the same school year. You’re right though, we still have to accept that Peter, Ned, MJ, that girl who we thought was MJ, and that other kid were snapped. But it’s a handful of people and 50% odds, not at all unusual.

Flash too as he's in the trailer. Statistically it's no weirder than all the original avengers surviving i guess.

Ditching the school year that survived the snap and replacing with kids who survived but are now the same age as Peter would be fine and also justify the school trip. I don't know if flash was just a bully of peter or a general one? As it would be funny for a younger kid he picked in now being bigger than him.

Wonder if the stark foundation pays for the trip? I could imagine tony leaving some funds for peter but not as cash in his bank but scholarships and maybe things that benefit his class.

[Mosi Mynn]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:46 PM, Heartofice said:

The "Ladies Assemble" scene being described as 'a bit on the nose' is an understatement, it was really very silly and made zero sense. In many ways I find it kind of patronising that there was a moment like that, there should have been plenty of space and time to highlight these female characters rather than some odd Beyonce moment where they have to get their own scene and shove them altogether. To make it so totally forced was actually quite insulting to women I felt, like a pat on the head.

 But I guess how some people who think that sort of thing is empowering would think it was cool. 

I LOVED this.  Yeah, it made no sense as to how they would all come together like that, and Carol didn't ultimately need them.  But it was great to see them all on screen together.

[Heartofice]

15 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I LOVED this.  Yeah, it made no sense as to how they would all come together like that, and Carol didn't ultimately need them.  But it was great to see them all on screen together.

I don’t know why though. I found it so politically motivated as to completely take me out of the movie. As I said i also found it pretty patronising, you wouldn’t do the same thing with any other group, why with all these great female characters do they need a hand up. It was pretty cringey 

[Mosi Mynn]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

I don’t know why though. I found it so politically motivated as to completely take me out of the movie. As I said i also found it pretty patronising, you wouldn’t do the same thing with any other group, why with all these great female characters do they need a hand up. It was pretty cringey 

Liked a poster said way way back: Endgame is pure comic book, with awesome panel-shots.  This was one (unrelated aside: my favourite one, possibly my favourite visual image in all of cinema, was Cap facing off against Thanos' army).

As to why I love it: it was so great to seeing them all together.  And it occurred to me even I was watching it that I was noticing (and appreciating) seeing them altogether because it's unusual to see so many women superheroes share a screen.  I never think twice when there are a group of male superheroes together.

[davos]

Great film.  There is some time travel problems that the film didn't bother tying off.  Frustrating but not a huge deal for this kind of movie.  The one thing that really eats at me though, that was not mentioned, is the impact of the bring all the snapped back after 5 years.  Its not just that family and friends would have moved on, making it difficult for a lot of the snapped to find a place, there are numerous other problems caused by this solution.  Food production would have fallen drastically, both due to having the number of people to feed cut in half but also from having half the labor force cut.  Housing stocks would have declined.  Half the people would mean a lot of places sit unused and are allowed to decay.   5 years is a long time to leave an apartment or home empty.  Infrastructure would have decayed both due to having half the population to provide for and not having the people to maintain it at its former level.  I could go on.  Basically you would have half the world traumatized by having lost the other half and then having to deal with the fallout from the snap over 5 years and the other half being traumatized from, their perspective, being transported 5 years into a future that had moved on without them.   There is going to be starvation on a massive scale, disease outbreaks from lacking the medical and sanitary systems to manage a suddenly doubled population, and general chaos as governments already in bad shape from the snap have to deal with another shock to the system.    A substantial portion of the population is not going to make it through the first couple of years after the snap being reversed.   While taking a guess at the impact without being an expert in a number of different fields is hard, I could see total looses before things stabilize of at least a quarter of the population and possible pushing towards half.   It would be bad.   Any post-apocolypse I can think of has a massively reduced poplulation.  This would be the first post apocalyptic world dealing with a sudden massive increase in population.  It would actually be interesting for a story to following through on the implications of something like this.  Horrific but interesting.  
Maybe it was the only solution that would work given their rules of time-travel.   But it would have really helped to have one of the very smart, very savvy people in the avengers at least mention that it would be very messy at the least.  There should have been an argument about rather it would be worth undoing given the consequences. Returning the lost is great.  Returning them to a nightmare where a good chunk of them will suffer and die horrible is not so great.  Possible the best of some bad options.   Instead of dealing with it though, they ignored that element implicate in story.  It bothers me more than a little.  Which is sad because otherwise it was a fantastic end to the most ambitious project in film history, something that may well be unrepeatable.   

[red snow]

Interesting points Davos. It does make you think an "undoing of the snap" would have been far more humane. Guess stark really didn't want to give up the kid. 

Also with all the timelines, shouldn't there be an argument the snap timeline being false? Thanos rewound time to undo the destruction of vision. So the "prime world" based on their rules should really be the one where the mind stone was destroyed along with any opportunity to snap? They spent the entire film protecting a nastier, divergent timeline rather than restore the one that had no time-meddling.Or there is at least a world where none of the dire events occurred. It's just shit luck for vision who seems to die in any reality.

Also the "what if" animated show has a lit mire legitimacy now. Each scenario could be a genuine al timeline.

[Bastard of Boston]

3 minutes ago, red snow said:

Interesting points Davos. It does make you think an "undoing of the snap" would have been far more humane. Guess stark really didn't want to give up the kid. 

Also with all the timelines, shouldn't there be an argument the snap timeline being false? Thanos rewound time to undo the destruction of vision. So the "prime world" based on their rules should really be the one where the mind stone was destroyed along with any opportunity to snap? They spent the entire film protecting a nastier, divergent timeline rather than restore the one that had no time-meddling.Or there is at least a world where none of the dire events occurred. It's just shit luck for vision who seems to die in any reality.

 

The whole premise of the story is that the snap cannot be undone in such a way that it never happened, though. The present can't be changed. Unless your thought is that the gauntlet cannot only bring everyone back, but also restore intangible infrastructure losses, which I think is probably way too specific for the gauntlet.

In essence, they did create a timeline where the snap never happened. The timeline 2014 Thanos came from. He's no longer there to collect the stones and snap 50% of the population.

One thing, I felt, the film did well is illustrate how some of the Avengers moved on. The idea being that it would be as inhumane -- even if possible -- to wipe out the previous five years. Tony isn't the only one to have had a child during that time.

I think these are the same questions people brought up last year. There were tons of people scoffing at the impracticality of Thanos' plan and what snapping 50% of life out of existence would do.

The snapture -- both implementation and reversal -- has always had insane implications. If you can buy it could happen, then you kind of need to buy that those people can be brought back and seamlessly work themselves back in. And if you can't buy either, then you kinda just have to watch documentaries. Cuz comic books.

[mcbigski]

I dunno if stark can snap back billions of people he could also create enough food.  Much lower level cleric spell than resurrection.

[Corvinus85]

Maybe Hulk's snap also produced resources, as people were saying Thanos should have done in the first place.

And I'm not sure what are the effects using the time stone to literally reverse events in a local field. Did Thanos and also Strange in his movie create new timelines? Did they actually obliterate the original timeline, and there was no going back to that?

I keep thinking about Cap's mission to restore the stones. How did he restore the space stone in the Tesseract, or the mind stone in the sceptre, especially given the small window of opportunity. I suppose he used the same device Rocket used to restore the reality stone. Maybe, if he was smart, he returned the time stone first, and then the Ancient One helped him figure out how to restore the rest.

[Bastard of Boston]

The time stone seems to control the localized flow of time, but not allow for time travel. That's an interesting question, though. Maybe 5 years for the entire universe is too big a task...?

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

The time stone seems to control the localized flow of time, but not allow for time travel. That's an interesting question, though. Maybe 5 years for the entire universe is too big a task...?

Here's a question: What is a localized flow of time? Does it work like general relativity, the concept that someone traveling near the speed of light experiences time differently?

[sologdin]

weird, yeah, that memory remains intact after the unsnap.  when warlock unsnaps, everything is reset to degree zero, except some extra-perceptive types have a feeling that something is off, and a select few direct participants recall everything.

so politically motivated

but the entire film is laden with the political: thanos is executed twice without trial, which arrogates the judicial function of the democratic polis; the avengers arrogate the legislative function of the polis in electing a particular remedy for the snap--nothing in the film challenges the notion of permitting a solitary person to make universal biopolitical administrative decisions; the jingoism inherent in steve rogers' character; the routine reduction of all dispute resolution mechanisms for intellectual questions to mere violence; and so on.   

these items are less noted perhaps because they are regressive, all too normal--but one progressive moment of representation is a bridge too far?

[Trebla]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I don’t know why though. I found it so politically motivated as to completely take me out of the movie. As I said i also found it pretty patronising, you wouldn’t do the same thing with any other group, why with all these great female characters do they need a hand up. It was pretty cringey 

As opposed to the 3 white guys who stand together against Thanos which is like totally normal and unquestioned because that's real life. All heroes need to be big strong white guys because that's SCIENCE!

[Bastard of Boston]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Here's a question: What is a localized flow of time? Does it work like general relativity, the concept that someone traveling near the speed of light experiences time differently?

I'm so much better at fake science than real science, heh. But I'm totally willing to go with that -- if I'm interpreting you correctly. Like the Time Stone can speed up or slow down someone's specific place in the time stream, and in doing that, their existence can be changed -- i.e. Vision's death can be undone and he, himself, can be inserted back into the normal flow of time.

[sologdin]

big strong white guys

people cheered down my way when chadwick boseman strolled in, after those white guys got their asses kicked.  my own adrenal response hit just before when anthony mackie phoned in.

[john]

Replying without reading for now, but just to note if you type “who is the boy ...” into google at the moment Google autocompletes with a huge Endgame spoiler.  

[The Mother of The Others]

Snapping in the present gave hulk more legs to stand on, cause and effect wise.  If they'd tunneled five years into the past to reverse the snap exactly that would have been more deeply 'impossible' and taken more out of the snapper, making success more doubtful.   And Stark's deal was to keep the last five years intact for his daughter.   So hulk had science reasons and promise reasons for doing it this way.   ....Think of just Peter's school which fired half their teaching staff and now it needs more classrooms opened and teachers rehired, then expand that to everywhere and everyone.   It'd be an interesting time to be alive.

The main benefit of the Womens Assemble scene was it reminded me of how there has been a decade of women characters built up as well, and without that scene to point them out in review some would have been forgotten during the battle , since even Drax got forgotten in the midst of it.  So I got something out of it.  And the idea that Carol is so inspirational for them that they weren't going to let her fall, that this was what drew them from across the battlefield.  And her flight with the gauntlet probably did become more of a straight shot thanks to their help.