Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I would posit no, because she traded her life for the soul stone. But to be fair I can’t really describe how that would actually play out, maybe the soul stone does play by your rules and you really would undo the repair job of unsnapping everyone.

But so did Gamora......for the Soul Stone in the exact same way Black Widow did. So Let's go get her.

 

And did anyone else notice the storyline was eerily similar to Deadpool 2? even with Josh Brolin lol

[Werthead]

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So then duh, Black Widow could be saved in this exact same way?

You could go back in time and bring forward a Black Widow from a past point in time to the present, yes. However, you'd just be transferring a Black Widow from one timeline to another, as you'd create a divergent timeline where there is no Black Widow. You might be screwing over that timeline since Black Widow wouldn't be there to sacrifice herself on Vormir. It's also a bit of a Pandora's Box because if Thanos uses the Infinity Stones to destroy the entire universe (which was his backup plan) that might mean all of time and space, including all of the different timelines, everywhere. So that's probably an incredibly bad idea. The team would have saved this universe from Thanos (twice!) only for another Thanos in another timeline to obliterate everything. So don't do that.

The main theory is that the people killed by the Soul Stone sacrifice ritual are now in the Soul Stone (as Gamora was in Infinity War), so Black Widow and our native-universe Gamora are in there, and possibly Vision (since the Soul Stone was right there when he died). Endgame tells us there's no way of getting them out of the Stone, but there may be other ways later on (including them just being released somewhere when Thanos destroyed the Infinity Stones).

[polishgenius]

14 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I'm going with her on this one.

It's not that I don't believe her, it's just that what she says was vague and brief and as I saw it only concerned with certain specific impacts. The stones not being around would send time and reality out of balance, but she says nothing about reality with the stones in just magically trucking on through to where we are in present regardless of what other changes were made. And I mean it wouldn't make sense for it to.
Like, it's not really important, we are where we are and unless they do go back and explore alternatives we won't know, but I just can't see how it can possibly make sense for Thanos and his entire army to vanish from 2014 but that doesn't split off into an alternate timeline yet still ends up back with the present/2024 timeline. It's just not possible.

[DaveSumm]

I wish I could remember the dialogue by the lake near the end, they did discuss getting her back and decided they couldn’t. This is why I bought a ticket for Sunday as well.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

You could go back in time and bring forward a Black Widow from a past point in time to the present, yes. However, you'd just be transferring a Black Widow from one timeline to another, as you'd create a divergent timeline where there is no Black Widow. You might be screwing over that timeline since Black Widow wouldn't be there to sacrifice herself on Vormir. It's also a bit of a Pandora's Box because if Thanos uses the Infinity Stones to destroy the entire universe (which was his backup plan) that might mean all of time and space, including all of the different timelines, everywhere. So that's probably an incredibly bad idea. The team would have saved this universe from Thanos (twice!) only for another Thanos in another timeline to obliterate everything. So don't do that.

The main theory is that the people killed by the Soul Stone sacrifice ritual are now in the Soul Stone (as Gamora was in Infinity War), so Black Widow and our native-universe Gamora are in there, and possibly Vision (since the Soul Stone was right there when he died). Endgame tells us there's no way of getting them out of the Stone, but there may be other ways later on (including them just being released somewhere when Thanos destroyed the Infinity Stones).

BUt since you can't change your past but you can make people skip a decade of time and be brought to the present from an alternate timeline you could in theory save Black Widow.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

It's not that I don't believe her, it's just that what she says was vague and brief and as I saw it only concerned with certain specific impacts. The stones not being around would send time and reality out of balance, but she says nothing about reality with the stones in just magically trucking on through to where we are in present regardless of what other changes were made. And I mean it wouldn't make sense for it to.
Like, it's not really important, we are where we are and unless they do go back and explore alternatives we won't know, but I just can't see how it can possibly make sense for Thanos and his entire army to vanish from 2014 but that doesn't split off into an alternate timeline yet still ends up back with the present/2024 timeline. It's just not possible.

Yeah it all makes sense until it's just OK for people to jump from one timeline to the other. if they are from an alt-timeline that gets erased then they should get erased too.

[DaveSumm]

7 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

But so did Gamora......for the Soul Stone in the exact same way Black Widow did. So Let's go get her.

You have a point, I don’t wanna sound like I’m just doggedly defending a theory which has every chance of being wrong, but just for the sake of discussion:

Maybe Black Widow trading her life for the stone but then getting saved would ruin our universes plan to unsnap people, and Gamora trading her life then being undone did ruin Thanos plan for that universe (his initial snap in IW).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So the ultimate downfall of Thanos was that he didn't take into account that Stark crafted the second gauntlet, so Stark can control his nano-tech to spit out the stones into his hand even if the gauntlet was on thanos's hand at the time. Tony's ultimate tech that saved the universe. Just something I think is cool. Tony was always upgrading his suit over the years, something Thanos did not account for, the Genius-Plyboy-Philanthropist outsmarted him by creating the second gauntlet himself. which also shows how powerfully smart Tony was--he crafted something as powerful as Ertri did on Nedavallier with the furnace of a star, able to harness the power of the stones. so that's cool.

[Bastard of Boston]

RE: Black Widow and Gamora. I think the point is, it doesn't matter. Technically, Gamora IS still dead. The Gamora we have is an alternate. Even if they bring Widow back from the past, why would she want to come to our universe? The only reason Gamora came here was because she had no choice. I think the idea with Widow is that it ultimately wouldn't be something Widow would want to do. She'd be leaving her timeline to join a group of Avengers she doesn't know, who have been through different things. And the alternate Widow would be leaving her friends behind. Any way you cut it, a timeline loses a Widow. It doesn't matter whether it's the prime timeline or an alternate. And for that Widow, she'd probably choose to stay with the friends she's fought with all along.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

yes but how can 1 person have 2 souls existing in the same plane?

Cap fights Cap. They don't explode. This isn't a problem. 

 

[Kalbear]

48 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

BUt since you can't change your past but you can make people skip a decade of time and be brought to the present from an alternate timeline you could in theory save Black Widow.

Again, sure - but it wouldn't be 'our' Black Widow. It'd be that timeline's black widow. You wouldn't be saving her life - you'd simply be abducting her from one timeline to the other.
 

So yeah, they can do that. But it doesn't solve their problem. 

[Kalbear]

47 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Yeah it all makes sense until it's just OK for people to jump from one timeline to the other. if they are from an alt-timeline that gets erased then they should get erased too.

Alt-timelines don't get erased. There is no unmaking a timeline.

There is no changing the past. 

[Werthead]

27 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

It's not that I don't believe her, it's just that what she says was vague and brief and as I saw it only concerned with certain specific impacts. The stones not being around would send time and reality out of balance, but she says nothing about reality with the stones in just magically trucking on through to where we are in present regardless of what other changes were made. And I mean it wouldn't make sense for it to.

She does say that and we see it in the sequence on top of the Sanctuary during the Battle of New York where she and Hulk are talking and she draws a mystical 3D diagram thing.

This is then backed up at the end of the film by Cap returning all of the Infinity Stones to their origin points and then literally living through the entire period to show up as an old man in 2023, instead of either just vanishing altogether and never being seen again, or appearing on the platform, both of which would confirm he's returned from an alternate timeline.

I'm not sure what more confirmation you want.

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Like, it's not really important, we are where we are and unless they do go back and explore alternatives we won't know, but I just can't see how it can possibly make sense for Thanos and his entire army to vanish from 2014 but that doesn't split off into an alternate timeline yet still ends up back with the present/2024 timeline. It's just not possible.

 

It does split off into a new timeline, as that's how we have new Gamora running around. However, Cap returning the Infinity Stones either collapses this timeline down again, or that orphaned timeline just shoots off and does its own thing, just with no Thanos or his minions running around.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Alt-timelines don't get erased. There is no unmaking a timeline.

There is no changing the past. 

Wait, no. Earlier in the thread it was explained that once Cap put the stones back it erased all the alternate timelines. That is The Ancient Ones explanation as well. So anything that came from the [Alternate timeline that gets erased] when Cap puts the stones back should also be erased, like Gamora.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

ALSO, Marvel Universe is Marvel Universe and in Days of Future's Past they did change the past. They talked Mystique out of killing Trask. They changed the past and the future and brought everyone back to life.

And in the comics, Kitty Pride changes the past quite a bit.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Wait, no. Earlier in the thread it was explained that once Cap put the stones back it erased all the alternate timelines. That is The Ancient Ones explanation as well. 

Again, I disagree. Once he puts back the stones the timeline falls into place assuming nothing else happens. I believe that the interpretation is that she was explaining how removing the time stone fucks things up unless you return it. But it says nothing about the rest of things not being fucked up.

Here's the other thing: we KNOW that there is a Loki spinoff coming up. If what you and @Werthead are saying is true, what's there to spin off? He's dead. Why bother having him teleport away with the Space Stone if it's just going to get erased and ignored? 

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So anything that came from the [Alternate timeline that gets erased] when Cap puts the stones back should also be erased, like Gamora.

See above. 

Really, once Loki fucked off with the space stone that caused enough weirdness alone that shouldn't be magically fixable. 

[Ramsay B.]

I thought it was good, not great. It kinda dragged at times and I never usually care for time traveling stuff(even knowing it would happen). Thor was easily the best part of this. If it wasn’t for him then that first hour or so would’ve been really shaky IMO.

It still annoys me that they decided to give Thanos no powers besides punching basically. I get they had to nerf him down some, and he’s still overwhelmingly strong and tough as hell, but give him some energy projection powers at least. Especially since Captain Marvel is essentially the Superman of the MCU. He can’t contend with that(basically I’m just mad that Thanos was defeated and killed while knowing it was an inevitability). 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

ALSO, Marvel Universe is Marvel Universe and in Days of Future's Past they did change the past. They talked Mystique out of killing Trask. They changed the past and the future and brought everyone back to life.

And in the comics, Kitty Pride changes the past quite a bit.

Actually I'm gonna quibble with that quite a bit. In the DofP storyline, Kitty travels back from the future to warn the existing timeline at that point about things - but the DoFP timeline still exists. At that moment, the timeline alternates and splits. We also see that in the AoA universe, which is another timeline split when Xavier is killed by Legion. The AoA timeline didn't go away when they repaired some things, and AoA versions could come into ours, but our timeline didn't disappear either. Both existed, and per the comics one could go back and forth between them. 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

At the start of mystical PowerPoint presentation

As an academic, I'm very much looking forward to this mystical powerpoint.  Been looking for something to spruce up my diss defense - that'll show all my colleagues that overly-rely on using fancy tricks in LaTeX.

[Werthead]

5 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Wait, no. Earlier in the thread it was explained that once Cap put the stones back it erased all the alternate timelines. That is The Ancient Ones explanation as well. So anything that came from the [Alternate timeline that gets erased] when Cap puts the stones back should also be erased, like Gamora.

Nothing can be destroyed as a result of the timeline being meddled with, so either Gamora is teleported back to the 2014 timeline and reintegrated into it by mystical Infinity Stone doohicky, or everything gets fixed but Gamora, because she's been left in our timeline, is sort of orphaned by it as a paradox. Less of a paradox because IW Gamora is dead, but still an odd situation.

Literally, this is only a problem because Marvel wanted that visual of Thanos and all his minions being dusted. If they just vanished and it was explained they'd all been returned to 2014 with their memories erased to fix the timeline, it wouldn't be an issue.

 

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ALSO, Marvel Universe is Marvel Universe and in Days of Future's Past they did change the past. They talked Mystique out of killing Trask. They changed the past and the future and brought everyone back to life.

And in the comics, Kitty Pride changes the past quite a bit.

 

The Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) is distinct from the Fox Cinematic Universe (which consists of X-Men, Deadpool etc). The rules of how time travel work in the MCU and in the Fox movies is different, and has no bearing on the situation.

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Here's the other thing: we KNOW that there is a Loki spinoff coming up. If what you and @Werthead are saying is true, what's there to spin off? He's dead. Why bother having him teleport away with the Space Stone if it's just going to get erased and ignored? 

 

Officially, the Loki series is a prequel exploring what he got up to at key moments in the past of Earth and other worlds, so it's not germane to Endgame. Of course, if that was just a pre-Endgame spoiler and the series is really about alt-2012 Loki, that's another question that I guess we'll get answered in that show.