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Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

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Saw Endgame at 5pm, which was just enough time to then get home and see Game of Thrones. I have the same thought on both, which that there was a good premise, but the execution wasn't totally though. I think Endgame was closer to getting it right though. There was a lot of good stuff, it just didn't entirely come together.

The first third had lots of individually good scenes (though I think killing Thanos, our Thanos, so abruptly was a mistake), but overall it ended up dragging pretty badly. The middle third had lots of fun time traveling nostalgia, but I think there was a lost opportunity to go further with it. I wanted to see some real shenanigans. They talked about Back to the Future Part II enough, I wish they went with it and ended up in a reality for a bit that was all screwed up from time travel (maybe having to follow Loki into a reality where he's had the stone for a while). Or having to have extended conversations with people from the past, including themselves, who didn't immediately understand what was going on. The last third was the standard battle stuff, but besides feeling inevitable, the stakes also felt lower since this was a different Thanos.

But overall it was a solid movie. The biggest reactions in the theater were Hawkeye's family disappearing (gasps), the reveal of really-let-himself-go Thor (laughs), Captain America picking up the hammer (cheers), when Strange's very first portal appeared (before anyone even showed up, the cheering started), and when Thanos said "I don't know who you are" to Scarlet Witch (laughs). 

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14 minutes ago, Fez said:

Saw Endgame at 5pm, which was just enough time to then get home and see Game of Thrones. I have the same thought on both, which that there was a good premise, but the execution wasn't totally though. I think Endgame was closer to getting it right though. There was a lot of good stuff, it just didn't entirely come together.

Since you brought it up... Endgame >>>>>>>>> GoT S8E3

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Couple of days later I think the peak highlight was On your Left/Avengers Assemble.  As soon as Thanos went through the portal, I expected Strange to be the first responder, obviously, but the scale of it still took me by surprise.

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1 hour ago, dbunting said:

I think it took most people out of it only because it was so obvious what they were doing. Somehow during this battle royale all of the kick ass women meet up at the same spot? It made you stop and say yep they are setting up a poster scene.

Is it strange, that the thing that stuck out most to me during the "girl power" scene was Mantis. Don't get me wrong I love the character and her power is insanely fun, but she has never been a fighter in any of these films.

At the end of the day, it is what it is. To be honest I just viewed the moment as I viewed Thanos for most of this film................Infinity War did it better, IMO

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19 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

So loki escaped in an alt dimension and has faded from the movies the same as cap and stark, but is allowed the grace of living on in trickster god fashion, just not round here no more.

Given that the mechanics really aren't that fleshed out, that Loki might be able to use the Tessaract to travel to our timeline.

 

13 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Here's a question: What is a localized flow of time? Does it work like general relativity, the concept that someone traveling near the speed of light experiences time differently?

I think I'd frame it as the time stone allows you to reverse objects/people to a state they were in a certain amount of time in the past. Time itself continues to flow, but instead of having object x at time y, you have object x from time (y - 30s) at time (y) and then it goes back to normal. When travelling through the quantum realm they are instead taking themselves to an entirely different point in time.

 

I think from comments here that my feelings on the stakes of the movie are different to some, but I think what made the movie work so well is that you have the middle section which is the fun time heist with lots of gags and not much tension because you know they are going to succeed, but then the way the movie pressed the pedal to the floor with Thanos levelling Avengers HQ only to follow it with a bunch of them stuck in the rubble made it feel like we were suddenly in the real world with real stakes. The silly comic stuff isn't focused on the reality of something like drowning because you're stuck under a collapsed building so that really made the threat feel more real to me.

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3 hours ago, karaddin said:

Given that the mechanics really aren't that fleshed out, that Loki might be able to use the Tessaract to travel to our timeline.

I'm assuming that they'll do some hand-wavey "space/time continuum so the Space stone allows you to skip dimensions and time" thing and Loki might end up back in "our" timeline and universe. From a scientific point of view at least the space and time stones overlap somewhat anyway in their jurisdiction so it's probably not that much of a stretch.

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Let's talk about Doctor Strange's grand plan because it kind of annoys me (although it doesn't seem to annoy anyone else :P).  The only thing i like about it was that moment where Strange holds up his one finger and Stark sees it, sighs resignedly and goes and does the hero thing.  Because that's a good cinematic moment.

But Strange didn't plan it because he knew Stark was a hero and would do what needed to be done.  He did it because he saw Tony do it so he knew he would do it.  But did it have to be Tony? And like that? In the logic of the movie, Strange watched dozens of iterations of similar events and somehow the only one where it worked out was what actually happens, which works out extremely well for everybody except Romanoff and Stark.  In real life logic though, I'm not buying it.

Firstly, Tony helps with the time travel but in the fantastical marvel universe they could surely have worked it out without him.  Banner nearly did it himself, he just needed time and they had plenty of that, the world was only improving and it made no difference to the snapped people.  Secondly, his nanotech was the mechanism by which they got the gems from Thanos.  But the hub for that is detatchable, anyone can use it.  He literally gives it to Steve at the beginning (how cool would that've been if Steve had pushed Tony out the way and formed up the Iron Man armour, after just using Mjolnir a moment before?  Cool as fuck, that's how cool).

(sidenote - how does the sleight of hand nanotech work anyway?  The gems aren't nano.  Did he touch his gauntlet to Thanos' and the nano on that glove spat out the gems while his sucked them in?  Or did the gems fly out of their holders with little particles of nano propelling them?  Also, the bloody glove only fit on Thanos' massive hand because it was nanotech, he couldn't have done his new snap without that in the first place.  Did you notice that Doctor fucking Strange?)

And thirdly, it just happened to be Tony that was nearby and could do something.  But anybody on that field would have done the same thing and most of them would not have had as much to lose (not to mention the planet losing the most crucial dynamic of its superhero ecosystem).  Plus we know fine well that Stark does not even have to be in the suit to use it.  Or he could maybe have just formed up a self propelled nanotech glove and snapped with that.  But you can't blame Tony for just reacting in the moment.  Somebody who saw the whole thing play out fives years ago though?  Eh Doctor Strange, you prick?

Here's a thought, why not get Wong to hold up that water pillar for you and go and do the snap yourself?  Or not give Thanos the time stone in the first place, since i don't see how he would have got it off you.  Or trade your own life for the stone, instead of Tony's and then use your apparent actual specific knowledge of events to work out a way of doing things better, rather than dropping weird nonspecific clues about Stark's imminent death and saying things like "if i tell you how it happens, it won't happen."  None of those scenarios would have worked?  In the one where you told Tony he needed to sacrifice himself he decided not to do it based on that information (and subsequently was destroyed when Thanos snapped the universe out of existence)?  BULLSHIT.  Fucking wizard dick.

Disclaimer:  I'm not actually annoyed.  I just have too much time on my hands.

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8 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Since you brought it up... Endgame >>>>>>>>> GoT S8E3

IMO MCU >>>>>>>>>>>>>GoT S4 onwards. Though I am being unreasonable, because I stopped watching after S5.

11 minutes ago, john said:

Here's a thought, why not get Wong to hold up that water pillar for you and go and do the snap yourself? 

Stark is wearing the second gauntlet, because it's part of his iron man suit. Ergo Stark has to do the snap. Clearly though, the second gauntlet option was the plan B. Plan A would be that collectively they should be able to kick Thanos' arse since he's sans Infinity Stones. At the final moment, when Strange could see that "spoilers" from his sneak peek into the future weren't going to ruin things, he let Stark know that he knew that Stark had the piece of kit that could end the whole thing, and that he needed to use it.

Edited by The Anti-Targ

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4 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Stark is wearing the second gauntlet, because it's part of his iron man suit. Ergo Stark has to do the snap. Clearly, though the second gauntlet option was the plan B. Plan A would be that collectively they should be able to kick Thanos' arse since he's sans Infinity Stones. At the final moment, when Strange could see that "spoilers" from his sneak peek into the future weren't going to ruin things, he let Stark know that he knew that Stark had the piece of kit that could end the whole thing, and that he needed to use it.

Nanotech Iron Man glove is one way of doing the snap (though like I said, anybody can potentially use the nanotech), another is a medieval style gauntlet made by giant Tyrion.  And another could be Doctor Strange's yellow glove with the gems held on by magic.  Why not?

He doesn't even have to do the snap anyway.  Fly away, take it to Banner, Danvers, even bloody half celestial Star Lord, literally everybody apart from him, Hawkeye and random Wakandan soldiers could have held up better.  Strange could have worked all this out, especially if he gave himself five years (or as long as he wanted really).

And I dont believe it was plan B, Strange knew all along this would happen, why else would he bargain for Stark's life.

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41 minutes ago, john said:

But Strange didn't plan it because he knew Stark was a hero and would do what needed to be done.  He did it because he saw Tony do it so he knew he would do it.  But did it have to be Tony? And like that? In the logic of the movie, Strange watched dozens of iterations of similar events and somehow the only one where it worked out was what actually happens, which works out extremely well for everybody except Romanoff and Stark.  In real life logic though, I'm not buying it.

I get where you’re coming from, I normally hate it in movies when someone actually says the odds and it just makes it all seem all the more unlikely. But here I think it makes sense; in the vast, vast majority of those futures that Strange saw, he didn’t give up the time stone. It’s his whole deal, he protects that damn stone no matter what. Just by handing Thanos the stone we’re in much more manageable numbers. He knew Thanos would get it eventually, and he also knew that nothing else would convince the Ancient One to give it up. In all other iterations that he saw, Banner gets a can of whoop-ass opened up on him and comes home empty handed.

All the other variables are flexible on time, Lang could have been released from the quantum realm one year, ten years after the snap, it didn’t really affect anything. Then finally, he knew that if he told Stark “yea we’re in the one, it’s cool” he might not have seemed it necessary to sacrifice himself. And a stone-changing gauntlet mod for the suit is a big deal, a lot of other  big players had a go and getting that thing off Thanos and came up short.

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9 hours ago, Fez said:

Saw Endgame at 5pm, which was just enough time to then get home and see Game of Thrones. I have the same thought on both, which that there was a good premise, but the execution wasn't totally though. I think Endgame was closer to getting it right though. There was a lot of good stuff, it just didn't entirely come together.

Another similarity between the two is that I don't think there were enough main character deaths. I don't think Endgame missed the mark nearly as badly as GoT, but I think it could've benefited from one more death; if only to stop Black Widow from getting such a short end of a stick. As is, Iron Man gets the huge final moment and saves the day (complete with catch phrase) and Captain America makes the choice in the aftermath to give it all up and live a normal life; but Black Widow just had the unfortunate luck of drawing the Vormir assignment. If she hadn't she'd be fine and someone else would've died, and just for 1/6th of what they needed. So it just seems small compared to the other two, and even moreso since it's the only other one. 

Either Nebula or the Hulk would've probably been the best options, much as I like both characters. And I'm leaning towards the Hulk since I'm really not clear what he'll be doing going forward now that all the Avengers he was closest to are gone and his own character arc seems complete.

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I’m weird, I didn’t want anyone to die in this film. Call me old school, but given all the depressing crap that happens in these two films, I wanted a happy ending. 

I’m still beyond annoyed we didn’t get a GotG reunion scene; but given how they basically skip over Carol’s introduction to the team I’m not surprised. 

Edited by sifth

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19 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The problem with the women assemble scene wasn't that it was politically motivated- that is a good thing so long as we need this kind of thing and anyone annoyed by the very premise can frankly piss right off.

But it was clumsy. IW did it much better with Widow, SW and Okoye, for example. I get the argument for pointing itself out also being a somewhat necessary and positive thing too, but... I'm sure it could have been done more elegantly.

But simultaneously it really was a very small part of a very big battle so...

I loved the SheVengers Assemble moment, precisely because of that whiff of politicism.

Incels: "Rey is a Mary Sue, arrrrggghhh! Quit ruining my Star Wars!"

Incels: "Capt. Marvel is a Mary Sue, arrrrggghhhh! Quit ruining my comics childhood!"

The Russo Bros.: "Hold my beer."

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4 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I loved the SheVengers Assemble moment, precisely because of that whiff of politicism.

Incels: "Rey is a Mary Sue, arrrrggghhh! Quit ruining my Star Wars!"

Incels: "Capt. Marvel is a Mary Sue, arrrrggghhhh! Quit ruining my comics childhood!"

The Russo Bros.: "Hold my beer."

Not sure if that is the right mind set to have with strong female leads. I personally think we should be going for a more Alien and Kill Bill approach and less “perfect Rey” from Disney Star Wars one. I mean heck just look at all the amazing female POV’s George has given us in a Song of Ice and Fire. 

Guess I’m just old school though and simply like my characters to act like, well people. 

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the intention may have been to disrupt the suspension of disbelief, precisely to show that, say, purple aliens and magic gloves are fine, but not &c.

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Loki can't use the Tesseract to get back to the main timeline mainly because he has no idea there are more than 1 timelines. why would he ever be like 'Imma use this Tesseract to go to a different timeline I didn't even know existed.'?

it just doesnt make sense.

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1 hour ago, Fez said:

Another similarity between the two is that I don't think there were enough main character deaths. I don't think Endgame missed the mark nearly as badly as GoT, but I think it could've benefited from one more death; if only to stop Black Widow from getting such a short end of a stick. As is, Iron Man gets the huge final moment and saves the day (complete with catch phrase) and Captain America makes the choice in the aftermath to give it all up and live a normal life; but Black Widow just had the unfortunate luck of drawing the Vormir assignment. If she hadn't she'd be fine and someone else would've died, and just for 1/6th of what they needed. So it just seems small compared to the other two, and even moreso since it's the only other one. 

Either Nebula or the Hulk would've probably been the best options, much as I like both characters. And I'm leaning towards the Hulk since I'm really not clear what he'll be doing going forward now that all the Avengers he was closest to are gone and his own character arc seems complete.

Yeah I was expecting FAR more deaths, as a way of clearing the decks and setting up the next phase. Maybe thats why I felt so little emotion when Tony dies.. I needed more! 

I'd say you could probably justify getting rid of everyone from Avengers 1 and 2 and just starting again with a whole new bunch of characters. I'd be more than ok with that. 

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6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Spoiler Alert: The Batman dies!

No he doesn't... because he's Batman.

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