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Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

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1 hour ago, Jeor said:

Yes, I think this is the hardest part, especially as they've already set the stage for another Guardians film.

I'm guessing they won't stuff around with any of this timeline stuff anymore and they'll just carry on from here. Gamora won't have all the memories but the others will fill her in and at some point Quill and her will hook up again and it'll all be fine! Or they could play it more risky and string it out more.

That’s assuming she didn’t go back. I don’t think she was in the Thor/Quill “who’s in charge” scene. So it’s a little unclear. 

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2 hours ago, ants said:

That’s assuming she didn’t go back. I don’t think she was in the Thor/Quill “who’s in charge” scene. So it’s a little unclear. 

No Gamorah's not in that scene and she's not at the funeral either.  She's "missing" post final battle, and Quill is conducing a search for her on the Benetar when that "who's in charge" scene first begins.

My guess is Guardians volume3 (aka Asgardians of the Galaxy) will involve a search for Gamorrah and a fight with Adam Warlock.

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16 hours ago, karaddin said:

Sorry to triple post but probably my biggest surprise was how much of the damage wasn't undone. Half the people in existence were gone for 5 years, this inflicted major trauma on everyone that doesn't just go away.

Yeah, I was very impressed they were willing to do that. Hopefully Spiderman will deal with the ramifications to some extent. And the loss should be a major focus of the next season of Agents of Shield, if they intend to keep pretending they're part of the MCU.

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18 hours ago, karaddin said:

 The importance of Strange giving the time stone to Thanos being even more detailed than it seemed, with that act being the thing that convinces The Ancient One to let Bruce have the time stone.

Holy shit! I would have never thought of it like that. This is just so perfect.

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Posted (edited)

Just got back. It was amazing.

 

Not sure about some of the time loops being closed. Loki making off with the Tesseract, Thanos and his army gone etc.

 

Also unless all of Peter's classmates were snapped, at least half of them should be five years older now.

 

And my big question, who was that guy stood by himself at the funeral? I think he was behind the Guardians and in front of Maria. < turns out it was the kid from IM3 [Edit]

Edited by The BlackBear
Answer

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An outstanding ovation for the MCU to this point. So much in this 3 hrs I need to see it again soon. Some thoughts...

FatThor was great and well acted, and they had (ahem) the guts to not have him cheat his way into shape using Godly powers. I would warn my nephews the perils of excessive Fornite and dark beer but they might still view fatThor with awe. He'll probably show up in GotG3 all lean again.  

How did Old Thanos' ship come through the relatively tiny time portal? I don't recall any mention of him having technology similar to Pym Particles.
 
Was that the Russo brothers at the meeting with Cap?

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1 minute ago, ithanos said:

How did Old Thanos' ship come through the relatively tiny time portal? I don't recall any mention of him having technology similar to Pym Particles.

Nebula handed him the vial of Pym Particles.

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Ok, it was awesome. Of course. But I have some nagging time travel questions:

As far as Hulk’s explanation goes, you can go back and change whatever you like and it doesn’t affect this version of the present. Which I loved, and I actually think this is how time travel would work. And The Ancient One’s argument was basically ‘yes, taking the time stone would be great for your reality, not for mine’. So they agree to return it. Presumably, Cap revisits each of these alternate realities and returns the stones, and their futures play out kinda similar. I don’t really like the idea of a Loki series taking place in an alternate reality, I’d prefer the suggestion that Cap fixed this somehow, or maybe that you can choose to time travel in the same reality if you want to, and Tony and Cap go to the past of the Loki-Steals-Tesseract universe in the 70’s and that somehow undoes the post-Avengers 1 stuff.

But how then does Old Cap end up back in the same reality? Does he intentionally return the stones to their realities, then chooses to go to the 1940’s of this universe, then grows old along side all the events we see? So who does young Cap go and see in the hospital in Winter Soldier, is that a Peggy that remembers their life together? At the least, Agent Carter has been erased. Maybe you could fudge things and say she had Alzheimer’s so it could’ve been the same Peggy. Or, did he go back, dance with her, then leave her and end up with someone else?

Basically it all works fine (if you don’t really look into the ethics of screwing with other realities) except for Old Cap. That I suspect doesn’t have a good answer, other than the Russo’s wanted these rules for time travel, but also wanted that ending for Cap.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

But how then does Old Cap end up back in the same reality? Does he intentionally return the stones to their realities, then chooses to go to the 1940’s of this universe, then grows old along side all the events we see? So who does young Cap go and see in the hospital in Winter Soldier, is that a Peggy that remembers their life together? At the least, Agent Carter has been erased. Maybe you could fudge things and say she had Alzheimer’s so it could’ve been the same Peggy. Or, did he go back, dance with her, then leave her and end up with someone else?

In Winter Soldier, Peggy says in 1953 that it's thanks to Captain America that she ended up with her husband...who of course we know now is Captain America (I think I predicted this a long time ago). I have a strong suspicion the Russo Brothers knew that was going down back then.

On that basis, I don't think Cap returned to Peggy in 1945, but returned to her before 1953, but after Agent Carter and maybe after SHIELD's founding in 1949. Sorry, Sousa. Maybe there's a story there about how he ended up as a cop in 2012 New York? (cough)

I mean, they did otherwise actually canonise Agent Carter by - for the first time ever - using one of the TV actors reprising a TV-only role in a Marvel film. The Netflix shows and Agents of SHIELD can feel a bit pissed off being left out, though.

Oh yeah, what's the significance of the after-the-credits sound effect of something being forged? That was weird but felt familiar. Most people seem to think it's just a shout out to Tony forging his first suit in Iron Man.

Edited by Werthead

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

In Winter Soldier, Peggy says in 1953 that it's thanks to Captain America that she ended up with her husband...who of course we know now is Captain America (I think I predicted this a long time ago). I have a strong suspicion the Russo Brothers knew that was going down back then.

On that basis, I don't think Cap returned to Peggy in 1945, but returned to her before 1953, but after Agent Carter and maybe after SHIELD's founding in 1949. Sorry, Sousa. Maybe there's a story there about how he ended up as a cop in 2012 New York? (cough)

Good point, he could have easily left her alone for for a few years I guess. And now that I think about it, her line “you came back to me” in Winter Soldier could be taken a different way now. Although I still can’t square this with Banner’s time travel theory. It’s also a bit weird to consider Old Cap having to leave Peggy’s bedside to make sure he doesn’t bump into Young Cap.

Also, is Agents of SHIELD gonna have to crowbar in a 5 year gap now? In which some subset of them are 5 years older and some aren’t? 

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Oh yeah, what's the significance of the after-the-credits sound effect of something being forged? That was weird but felt familiar. Most people seem to think it's just a shout out to Tony forging his first suit in Iron Man.

Yea I noticed that, maybe it’s the easiest thing to pretend meant something after the fact. :) It feels weird now, as there was no setting up of any kind, we have no idea what’s gonna happen. What’s the over arching plot now? Who are the Avengers? Are there Avengers at all? There’s not an obvious leader and no HQ, so maybe not? Strange times.

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

In Winter Soldier, Peggy says in 1953 that it's thanks to Captain America that she ended up with her husband...who of course we know now is Captain America (I think I predicted this a long time ago). I have a strong suspicion the Russo Brothers knew that was going down back then.

But what's the explanation for why he waited until 1953 to come back?  Didn't like Harry Truman?

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Good point, he could have easily left her alone for for a few years I guess. And now that I think about it, her line “you came back to me” in Winter Soldier could be taken a different way now. Although I still can’t square this with Banner’s time travel theory. It’s also a bit weird to consider Old Cap having to leave Peggy’s bedside to make sure he doesn’t bump into Young Cap.

Also, is Agents of SHIELD gonna have to crowbar in a 5 year gap now? In which some subset of them are 5 years older and some aren’t? 

Yea I noticed that, maybe it’s the easiest thing to pretend meant something after the fact. :) It feels weird now, as there was no setting up of any kind, we have no idea what’s gonna happen. What’s the over arching plot now? Who are the Avengers? Are there Avengers at all? There’s not an obvious leader and no HQ, so maybe not? Strange times.

The Avengers now I think are going to be:

Full-time: War Machine, Scarlet Witch, Winter Soldier, Falcon/New Cap, possibly with a replacement for Iron Man (Shuri? Feels like we're not quite there yet). It'd be cool if Ant-Man and the Wasp (presumably now pardoned) could also join full-time.

Part-time (showing up when needed): The Guardians, Thor, Captain Marvel, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange, Black Panther.

Retired: Hulk and Hawkeye.

It sounds like the Disney+ shows are also gong to be extended farewells to Hulk and Hawkeye, with a view to them training Jennifer Walters and Kate Bishop as their replacements.

 

Quote

 

But what's the explanation for why he waited until 1953 to come back?  Didn't like Harry Truman?

 

I suspect Steve spent a lot of time pouring over SHIELD's records of Peggy Carter's history, and realised that around that time was when Peggy spent a lot of time away from the office and wasn't an active field officer any more, and he could insert himself into her life at that point without disrupting anything.

Quote

 

Although I still can’t square this with Banner’s time travel theory

 

I think Banner's argument is that the second you change anything, you create a new timeline. If you reset the timeline (by replacing the Stones), then the waveform collapses back into the originally-intended state. So everything pans out.

The exception is the "Thanos from 2014" stuff, which is hugely problematic unless Captain America returning to Morag and placing the Power Stone back somehow fixes the timeline and snaps everything back into place it was originally. If that Infinity Stone had been the Time Stone, sure, but not sure how that works with the Power Stone (whose powers feel a bit lacking in definition anyway). Oh, unless War Machine punching out Quill ("He's an idiot!") is the moment the timeline branched away from the original 2014 one, so nothing really matters there.

Are we also thinking that Black Widow and Original Gamora are now all in the Soul Stone, possibly Vision as well? How do we square Black Widow's apparent death with her own movie coming up?

Edited by Werthead

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39 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I suspect Steve spent a lot of time pouring over SHIELD's records of Peggy Carter's history, and realised that around that time was when Peggy spent a lot of time away from the office and wasn't an active field officer any more, and he could insert himself into her life at that point without disrupting anything.

Still seems rather odd.  I'm sure if you asked her, she'd want him back ASAP.

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Yeah, the movie was great fun but as per ever the timeline stuff did leave a lot of unanswered questions. Though I think most of the 'how does changing the past affect the future' qs are answered/handwaved by (1) the alternate timelines mentioned by the Ancient One as fact (ie they'll save their timeline but doom hers) and (2) Banner basically going 'That's not how it works shut up'. so it's best not to think about it too much.

5 years is definitely too big a gap in my book though, largely because I'm 90% certain that they're not going to address the fact at all in future movies that half the population was missing for a big chunk of their lives. Like for example Peter just goes right on back to school and thankfully all his mates were vanished too otherwise half of them would be in their 20s now. Gonna guess that Far From Home won't be about that.


Also: the Ancient One makes a big point about how Earth is unprotected and will fall to the dark if there's no time stone in that timeline. Well, there's no time stone in 'our' timeline now...

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Still seems rather odd.  I'm sure if you asked her, she'd want him back ASAP.

Yeah, but then he wouldn't be in his own timeline any more (as he'd have changed things too much) and couldn't appear on the bench.

He could have gone back to 1945, spent his life with Peggy in a different timeline and then returned to his origin point, but then he'd have materialised on the platform in the suit as an old man instead.

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Also: the Ancient One makes a big point about how Earth is unprotected and will fall to the dark if there's no time stone in that timeline. Well, there's no time stone in 'our' timeline now...

That's a good point. Doctor Strange doesn't need the Time Stone (and in fact left it in the Sanctuary whilst he was training up between DS and IW), but it was a bloody big help.

At a stretch, if any major shit goes down, they can just do the same thing again: zip back in time, grab an Infinity Stone as needed, deal with the threat and then replace it again.

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9 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, but then he wouldn't be in his own timeline any more (as he'd have changed things too much) and couldn't appear on the bench.



That actually raises another point though- how does Cap being able to appear on that bench work when surely he'd have ended up in the other timeline where Thanos mysteriously vanishes in 2014 and none of it ever happens?

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5 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, but then he wouldn't be in his own timeline any more (as he'd have changed things too much) and couldn't appear on the bench.

He could have gone back to 1945, spent his life with Peggy in a different timeline and then returned to his origin point, but then he'd have materialised on the platform in the suit as an old man instead.

That would actually tidy things up immensely to have him reappear on the platform, and wouldn’t really have taken much from the scene.

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

That's a good point. Doctor Strange doesn't need the Time Stone (and in fact left it in the Sanctuary whilst he was training up between DS and IW), but it was a bloody big help.

At a stretch, if any major shit goes down, they can just do the same thing again: zip back in time, grab an Infinity Stone as needed, deal with the threat and then replace it again.

Maybe The Ancient One’s concerns were about Dormammu, who was still a threat then. Then once he’s defeated, Doctor Strange defends it for regular reasons, like not snapping half the universe to death.

10 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

5 years is definitely too big a gap in my book though, largely because I'm 90% certain that they're not going to address the fact at all in future movies that half the population was missing for a big chunk of their lives. Like for example Peter just goes right on back to school and thankfully all his mates were vanished too otherwise half of them would be in their 20s now. Gonna guess that Far From Home won't be about that.

I could see them mining some comedy from it, have Ned and Peter discussing which girls got hotter in their 20’s, which girls grew up to their age and such. I assume Ned was snapped from the look of him. But yea, gonna have to live with the fact that the main cast of Homecoming just happened to get snapped.

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10 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, but then he wouldn't be in his own timeline any more (as he'd have changed things too much) and couldn't appear on the bench.

He could have gone back to 1945, spent his life with Peggy in a different timeline and then returned to his origin point, but then he'd have materialised on the platform in the suit as an old man instead.

I'm don't really understand this as I haven't seen it yet, but I'll take your word for it.  I am generally unclear on how he possibly could be "in his own timeline" once he goes back to begin with, logically.  That's Terminator rules, whereas it seems the entire film operates under Back To The Future rules.

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