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Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

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21 minutes ago, karaddin said:

This is the point where I think they have messed up, because the time travel model doesn't allow for the explanation of "Steve always went back in time and was Peggy's husband all along", as soon as he travels to 1953 or wherever that should be a big enough change to create a T4. I guess the handwave is the he is very careful and doesn't change anything major which would allow for the above explanation to work.

I don t think this is true. Because in order for steve's timeline to colapse into T1 then he would need to capture loki without making big changes in the timeline.

In adition, we have the problem of gotg1 not happening. God only know the consequences of that. Besides the fact that thanos and his daughters disapear from his timeline so the avengers stories never happen! At least these last 2 movies (no idea if thanos disapears before avengers1).

 

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The big getout is that we don't really know what Stark did with his click, and he was possibly aware of all of these issues. Was Thanos killed, or sent back with no memory? Was a copy of Gamorah made, or was she sent back, or is T3 Gamorah still around?  

Depending on all of this, T2/T3 may have snapped back to T1.  If Stark created a copy of Gamorah, then that would solve the whole GOTG issues as well.  

What does seem clear, is that with the exception of bringing back the victims of the Soul Stone, the Infinity Gauntlet would be powerful to do all of this.  I think a copy of Gamora before her death, so she still dies at Mamuk (name?) would probably be possible.  So, Stark's finger snap is a huge Dues Ex Machina in regards to the timelines.  

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8 minutes ago, ants said:

The big getout is that we don't really know what Stark did with his click, and he was possibly aware of all of these issues. Was Thanos killed, or sent back with no memory? Was a copy of Gamorah made, or was she sent back, or is T3 Gamorah still around?  

Depending on all of this, T2/T3 may have snapped back to T1.  If Stark created a copy of Gamorah, then that would solve the whole GOTG issues as well.  

What does seem clear, is that with the exception of bringing back the victims of the Soul Stone, the Infinity Gauntlet would be powerful to do all of this.  I think a copy of Gamora before her death, so she still dies at Mamuk (name?) would probably be possible.  So, Stark's finger snap is a huge Dues Ex Machina in regards to the timelines.  

I don t think there were any copies made. If he thought of that he would have copied himself so that while 1 version of himself could live while the other died.

I just assumed he killed all the bad guys like thanos did in the previous movie… But yes, depending on if gamorra is alive he could have solved most of the timeline issues. And it would actually make more sense than gamorra sudenly disapearing… Maybe in the next guardians they will look for a way to revive her and Natasha? I didn t think that this would be scarlet's last movie…

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I have no words, only emotions. Coy over at Collider summed this movie up perfectly. In a space where comic book movies are frequently described as "like a comic book come to life," this movie was absolutely that. It's a shame that descriptor has been overused during the decades because it's lost its luster. Other Marvel films try to evoke a specific film genre, while this film has all of the over-the-top comic book qualities -- the splash pages, the alternate timelines, the time travel to previous movies. Even though "comic book" isn't a genre, it's the best way to characterize this. Ironically, the only thing in this realm was Into the Spider-Verse.

All those women standing together in one shot? That shit is straight up comic book. It defies logic and it doesn't matter. It looks cool as hell and made my estrogen spike...I wanted to be a woman after that shot. Words I thought I'd never say.

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40 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t think this is true. Because in order for steve's timeline to colapse into T1 then he would need to capture loki without making big changes in the timeline.

In adition, we have the problem of gotg1 not happening. God only know the consequences of that. Besides the fact that thanos and his daughters disapear from his timeline so the avengers stories never happen! At least these last 2 movies (no idea if thanos disapears before avengers1).

 

Steve doesn't stay in the timeline where he returned the stones, he uses the time machine to travel to the past which is a point prior to any of the splits so old steve would be in all of the timelines - T1, T2 and T3 - and as much of a native to them as everyone else. The question is whether he can travel to the past and live there without creating yet another timeline T4 - if T4 exists then he shouldn't be in the others after all. The alternative is that he hung onto the time machine and near the end of his long life he uses it to come back to T1 to hand over the shield and say goodbye but what was shown implied otherwise.

32 minutes ago, ants said:

The big getout is that we don't really know what Stark did with his click, and he was possibly aware of all of these issues. Was Thanos killed, or sent back with no memory? Was a copy of Gamorah made, or was she sent back, or is T3 Gamorah still around? 

Yeah it is quite possible Stark's snap didn't simply dust all of Thanos's invading forces but sent them back home with a memory wipe. I don't like that option as much because it undoes a lot of the movie which was precisely what I appreciated about the way they resolved the first snap, they didn't undo it - they reversed it after 5 years.

One completely unrelated question I have is - if the Avengers facilities are able to build an infinity gauntlet with the nanotech, why did Thanos need to have it done by Giant Dinklage? Is it possible that while these other cultures/planets have much more advanced weapons and ships, earths nanotech manufacturing is actually cutting edge? I'm not going to complain like its a plot hole, I'm just interested if that's actually a direction they intend to explore.

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I had to go pee around the time FatThor started talking with his mom.  I came back when she told him to eat a salad.  I assume there wasn't a switch to another location / team in the intervening time?  If so, what happened?  It did feel like I missed something but I can't tell what.

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2 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I had to go pee around the time FatThor started talking with his mom.  I came back when she told him to eat a salad.  I assume there wasn't a switch to another location / team in the intervening time?  If so, what happened?  It did feel like I missed something but I can't tell what.

She figured out he's from the future and they have a conversation about failure, about not living up to the person you think you should be and about being the person you actually are. He tries to warn her about her imminent death and she completely shuts him down saying she doesn't want to know. He calls mjolnir to his hand and takes it with him (which is how its there for the fight later) but much more important than the weapon itself is that it tells Thor he is still worthy - something he had very much been doubting. It was a sweet conversation where a mother sets her son on the path to healing after some pretty enormous trauma and makes me wish his emotional state wasn't treated as a joke in some of the other aspects of it.

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29 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t think there were any copies made. If he thought of that he would have copied himself so that while 1 version of himself could live while the other died.

A copy of him would still be only a copy; it might be indistinguishable to anyone else, but from his personal perspective he'd still die, there'd just be some other guy with his memories taking over his life. I don't think Stark would find that idea especially appealing.

2 minutes ago, karaddin said:

One completely unrelated question I have is - if the Avengers facilities are able to build an infinity gauntlet with the nanotech, why did Thanos need to have it done by Giant Dinklage? Is it possible that while these other cultures/planets have much more advanced weapons and ships, earths nanotech manufacturing is actually cutting edge?

Stark's tech is certainly cutting edge by galactic standards; mainstream Earth tech, not so much. I don't think anyone else on the planet could have constructed a functional gauntlet.

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7 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Steve doesn't stay in the timeline where he returned the stones, he uses the time machine to travel to the past which is a point prior to any of the splits so old steve would be in all of the timelines - T1, T2 and T3 - and as much of a native to them as everyone else. The question is whether he can travel to the past and live there without creating yet another timeline T4 - if T4 exists then he shouldn't be in the others after all. The alternative is that he hung onto the time machine and near the end of his long life he uses it to come back to T1 to hand over the shield and say goodbye but what was shown implied otherwise.

Well, unless steve always went back to the past but penny ( don t remember if it is her name) just didn t tell him before she died… But this would ignore that she was an important member of shield and that people knew steve's face. So if he started living with her someone should notice...

13 minutes ago, karaddin said:

One completely unrelated question I have is - if the Avengers facilities are able to build an infinity gauntlet with the nanotech, why did Thanos need to have it done by Giant Dinklage? Is it possible that while these other cultures/planets have much more advanced weapons and ships, earths nanotech manufacturing is actually cutting edge? I'm not going to complain like its a plot hole, I'm just interested if that's actually a direction they intend to explore.

As they cut thanos glove from him in the beguining they had 5 years to study it and make something similar. It makes sense that they can copy the material after all that time...

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It was good.  Probably the first Marvel film I will see in the theaters twice (last time I did that was the first Guardians of the Galaxy. 

 

Some really nice callbacks probably my favorite was the blink and you miss it cameo of the kid from Iron Man 3 during the funeral scene. 

I'll just say it (and I know I am probably in the minority here) I felt the movie would have been better if everyone had to deal with the ramifications of what Thanos left behind and not going back and solving all their problems with infinity stones so the good guys win like they always do.

Now that Thor is hanging out with the Guardians I hope that means he is in Guardians of the Galaxy 3. 

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5 minutes ago, felice said:

A copy of him would still be only a copy; it might be indistinguishable to anyone else, but from his personal perspective he'd still die, there'd just be some other guy with his memories taking over his life. I don't think Stark would find that idea especially appealing.

His familly would apreciate it… Like his daughter growing up with her father...

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I loooooved it!!!!!!! So much emotion, so much adrenaline.

The timeline stuff, I need to watch it again, because there's too much to unpack there. Right now, the moments to discuss:

  • Thor floored me. The first tears I got was seeing him utterly broken in Norway. And every time he would do something else, especially the moments with his mother, again tears. I do wish he had remained king. But I think he continues to be a depressed man, hiding behind a humorous mask. He might also think Loki is alive (likely is), and he's using the Guardians to go search for him, his last family. Though he is still worthy, so maybe, there's more hero for him in the future.
  • Cap, oh Cap - what a great passing of the torch to Sam, and of course all the moments before - his fight with his younger self, Heil Hydra, and fucking Mjolnir!!! Man, I thought he was dead after Thanos broke his shield. And then the rest appeared. Just wow
  • Thanos was once again boss - they managed to build him up so well, truly an excellent villain; despite all the heroes rising up to meet him, he used his brute strength, cunning, and experience to throw them back, until that final moment, which brings me to
  • Tony "I am Iron Man" Stark - a great, great send off. I smiled that he proved his genius once again, and I teared up at his sacrifice. When the credits rolled, and those autographed images of the main Avengers went through, people cheered when RDJ's moment came.
  • Black Widow's sacrifice was another strong moment. They managed to keep me guessing, but in hindsight, it had to be her, because the original Avengers are done - 2 dead, 1 old and near death, 1 gone to space and possibly not returning to Earth, 1 with a family, likely retired for good this time, and 1, the Hulk, whom I'm not sure about, but he may not have it in him to be an Avenger yet. What are they going to do about Black Widow's movie, though? Idk, there is a 5 year gap to explore, but it might not have the same force.
  • All the humor and action scenes were great, again. I liked how visceral the beginning was, between Clint's loss, and the desperation of the Avengers going after Thanos. I liked short haired Carol, and the big battle, or at least the beginning of it, and the Thanos fight moments. The rest was the usual chaotic CGI battle, but better than most, still.
  • The direct call backs to the other movies were great, between the humor, and just re-doing stuff from a different perspective. Marvel once again outdid itself turning back time on movies and people.
  • About the only thing that made me frown is Scott's daughter, as that girl looked way older than what Cassy should be after 5 years. 
  • I liked that it ended still with some loss, and not all neatly tied up back together; besides Tony and Natasha, Vision is still dead, Peter and Gamora's relationship probably needs a redo. Also, I really liked the moment when the Ancient One gives the time stone to Bruce. Her ability to see into the future was limited to her moment of death. She says Strange will be the best of the masters of the mystic arts, but all she could see was his potential, not his future. So she gave the stone on faith, she had faith in Strange.

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Banner pretending to be Hulk and prodding the car was another of the hilarious moments. You're right that the start with Clint losing his family worked really well as well, that turn around and everyone behind you is suddenly gone - how on earth do you start to process that.

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34 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Steve doesn't stay in the timeline where he returned the stones, he uses the time machine to travel to the past which is a point prior to any of the splits so old steve would be in all of the timelines - T1, T2 and T3 - and as much of a native to them as everyone else. The question is whether he can travel to the past and live there without creating yet another timeline T4 - if T4 exists then he shouldn't be in the others after all. The alternative is that he hung onto the time machine and near the end of his long life he uses it to come back to T1 to hand over the shield and say goodbye but what was shown implied otherwise.

I just thought of something.

If loki escaped then how come that when they return to the future they return to their timeline? And the same thing about thanos discovering about the future. Nebula shouldn t have returned to their future timeline because thanos was acting diferently from the original timeline.

Shouldn t they return to a diferente timeline if they change something significantly in the past?

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Posted (edited)

There were a lot of kids in the audience and the humour really worked for them, especially Morgan Stark's saying "shit".  I didn't catch fully what Stark said to Rocket when he said he looked like a (teddy?) bear.  I'm guessing something the younger kids picked up on and found hilarious.  Or they just love Rocket.

Edited by SpaceChampion

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27 minutes ago, divica said:

I just thought of something.

If loki escaped then how come that when they return to the future they return to their timeline? And the same thing about thanos discovering about the future. Nebula shouldn t have returned to their future timeline because thanos was acting diferently from the original timeline.

Shouldn t they return to a diferente timeline if they change something significantly in the past?

Not when they're saying its distinct timelines. They leave T2 and T3 and return to their own T1 when they return to the present. I almost feel like this needs to be explained with pictures as words just aren't conveying it well.

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6 hours ago, Werthead said:

She helped them kill Thanos first time around, helped save the rest of the galaxy as it was falling into chaos and then destroyed Thanos's flagship at the end. She was used strategically (in a story sense) to do important stuff but not overwhelm the original characters.



I understand why they did it and ultimately they did it well enough, I just felt the use of her didn't tally with the buildup they gave her. Ultimately it's not a big thing but (like with the time travel ambiguities) in a universe that's been this meticulously built it was sorta notable to me.


Anyway I don't wanna moan all the time. It was a cracking movie overall. To offer a counter to the above, when Scarlet Witch lit Thanos up that was so fricking satisfying.

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Posted (edited)

I think the emotional weight of the film is kicking in for me Now after a few hours sleep. I'm definitely going to be seeing this one again.

I think "tony could do anything" (eg return thanos to his original timeline with no recollection) mixed with some meticulous fixing by cap squares most things for me. I also like the implication stark doesn't fix all the wrinkles precisely because he wants Cap to have the opportunity to be with carter.

The weird 5 year gap for half the planet will depend on how spidey and continuing films choose to deal with it. I hope most people's pets dusted with their owners.

Someone upthread reminded me of another beautiful moment - thor realising he's still worthy. Other than playing him for laughs a lot i felt Thor's depression was done really well in the sense there was ample justification for him to go through what he went through (not that you need to justify depression but it certainly helps to be able to pinpoint where your personal coping mechanisms can go awry). Likewise Stark's initial anger and hitting out at everyone rang true with his character dealing with loss. He was lucky in that he still had pepper. The there is Cap who has already had to deal with losing his entire world once. The writers actually did some really nice work regarding how different characters dealt with such trauma.

I really want another dr strange movie now! I think his teo avengers appearances and the previous sorcerer supreme bigging him up has made me appreciate him a lot more than his own film did.

Edited by red snow
Clarification

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32 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I understand why they did it and ultimately they did it well enough, I just felt the use of her didn't tally with the buildup they gave her. Ultimately it's not a big thing but (like with the time travel ambiguities) in a universe that's been this meticulously built it was sorta notable to me.

Yeah I thought she was going to play a more pivotal role and how little screen time she had was one of my disappointments. They did handle her power scaling quite nicely though - they mostly avoided giving clear answers on it by having her fighting at a pretty even level with Thanos until he used the power stone to punt her away and that was the relevant part, he didn't need to kill her he just needed to open up an opening to use the gauntlet and he succeeds at that with respect to her...then someone else jumps in. It certainly didn't seem like anyone else was remotely the threat to his ship that she was - it spots her in orbit and immediately abandons shooting at the ground to try and shoot her down and she just plows straight through it.

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Boy was that fun or what? I'm so glad I had zero idea about anything.

Aa usual, time travel movies never ever make any damn sense but at least they made fun of that. Agreed that we'll see in Far From Home how they handle it, the 5 year thing really seems like a big confusion. All further movies take place 5 years of dystopia later? Hmm.

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