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Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

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4 hours ago, karaddin said:

The alternative is that he hung onto the time machine and near the end of his long life he uses it to come back to T1 to hand over the shield and say goodbye but what was shown implied otherwise.

That’s not a bad suggestion. Slightly inelegant in that our Peggy doesn’t get to see Steve till the 21st century and it’s some other Peggy that he ends up with, but it works.

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

One completely unrelated question I have is - if the Avengers facilities are able to build an infinity gauntlet with the nanotech, why did Thanos need to have it done by Giant Dinklage? Is it possible that while these other cultures/planets have much more advanced weapons and ships, earths nanotech manufacturing is actually cutting edge? I'm not going to complain like its a plot hole, I'm just interested if that's actually a direction they intend to explore.

Don’t forget that, despite half the planet being dead, they’ve had 5 years of integration with Wakandan technology. Stark would’ve been all over that. Maybe not to the levels of the rest of the galaxy but it bridges the gap a little. Plus, Stark would’ve got good scans of the gauntlet in IW, maybe he even integrated a ‘stone grabber’ into the suit for his final scene.

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

He calls mjolnir to his hand and takes it with him (which is how its there for the fight later) but much more important than the weapon itself is that it tells Thor he is still worthy - something he had very much been doubting.

Totally forgot to mention this: how about the universe where Thor has to finish up Thor 2 without Mjolnir?! Our Thor just straight up stole it and didn’t return it. Maybe Cap had to defeat the Dark Elves to?

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Posted (edited)

Argh I'm conflicted on this movie. It was so great in so many ways, and yet I came out feeling pretty deflated and maybe even disappointed. Maybe I had built this thing up in my head too much over the past year, maybe the reviews had hyped me even more, maybe I just wanted it to be sooo good. 

I could talk about all the good things but I'm guessing that has all been covered. It was full of emotion and gut wrenching moments, some fine acting and it managed to tie a knot in everything that has occurred in the MCU since the movies began. 

But it wasn't perfect. Something about it left me underwhelmed and I'm trying to work out what it is.
 

  • I feel like the structure of the story is not as compelling as Infinity War and that was a bit of a problem. IW was all build up and dread, Thanos was an enormous threat that drew a shadow on every scene and it kept me on the edge of my seat up until the end, when the final click happened I was exhausted. Endgame can't really follow that in many ways, but in some ways it tries to by reintergrating Thanos back into the storyline. The problem however is that Endgame Thanos doesn't feel as threatening, he feels like the younger weaker cousin of the Thanos we already saw die. Introducing him into the story again didn't work for me.
    There is also something less compelling about trying to get something back you already lost, than that fear of losing something you already have.. maybe that is a deep human urge that means that it didn't feel as intense as IW.
     
  • Time Travel is always a tricky thing to pull off, and not just because of the plothole issue. I just think its less interesting to revisit things I've already seen. I call it the Back to the Future 2 problem. BTTF2 is a movie with issues, I always used to love the future moments, and then found myself bored when Marty goes back to 1955 again, maybe because it feels like a plot roadblock, where the plot gets kind of bogged down and doesn't seem to move forward, instead goes round and round in the past. 
    Endgame suffered a little from this I think. It was great seeing those moments from Avengers 1 and Thor 2 from different angles and it allowed some cool character moments, but somehow narratively it seemed to bog the plot down. It also had this feeling of more mcguffin collection. So even though those were some of my favourite scenes from the movie, I felt like overall they might have caused problems in the overall plot structure.
     
  • I feel terrible for saying it, but there wasn't enough action. When I heard reviews mention the movie was 'slow' and character focussed I cheered, thats exactly what I thought I wanted. But I love the action in these movies, and the Russos are just so damn good at action scenes, but there were very few and nothing was especially memorable, not like the fights in IW which I thought were top quality. It shouldn't be something I judge the movie on, but it seems that it is. 

I still loved it and the first hour and those last few moments were just incredible. Its just that there is something quite 'messy' about the structure of this movie. Was it too long, maybe. But it didn't feel streamlined. I always think its a problem if I can't tell you the rough order of events, because it was so complex. 

 

Edited by Heartofice

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

That’s not a bad suggestion. Slightly inelegant in that our Peggy doesn’t get to see Steve till the 21st century and it’s some other Peggy that he ends up with, but it works.

Don’t forget that, despite half the planet being dead, they’ve had 5 years of integration with Wakandan technology. Stark would’ve been all over that. Maybe not to the levels of the rest of the galaxy but it bridges the gap a little. Plus, Stark would’ve got good scans of the gauntlet in IW, maybe he even integrated a ‘stone grabber’ into the suit for his final scene.

Totally forgot to mention this: how about the universe where Thor has to finish up Thor 2 without Mjolnir?! Our Thor just straight up stole it and didn’t return it. Maybe Cap had to defeat the Dark Elves to?

Cap takes Mjolnir when he goes to return the stones and doesn't have it with him when he gives Sam the shield at the end so I'm assuming he returned it at the same time as the ether. All he has to do is drop it somewhere in the timeline and it will get to Thor eventually lol. I'm not sure if Thor was going to return the ether himself if Cap hadn't been able to lift Mjolnir though!

ETA - HOI - I actually found this Thanos more threatening not less. IW Thanos did have the inevitability this Thanos was claiming, but he also had this supreme arrogance that led to him not killing people when he had the opportunity. This Thanos knows that they come up with a genuine threat to his plan and has taken the gloves off, if he gets an opening someone will die. And unlike IW which I only saw knowing a decent amount of it would be undone, anyone that died in this one was going to stay dead.

Edited by karaddin

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14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

 

 

  • I feel like the structure of the story is not as compelling as Infinity War and that was a bit of a problem. IW was all build up and dread, Thanos was an enormous threat that drew a shadow on every scene and it kept me on the edge of my seat up until the end, when the final click happened I was exhausted. Endgame can't really follow that in many ways, but in some ways it tries to by reintergrating Thanos back into the storyline. The problem however is that Endgame Thanos doesn't feel as threatening, he feels like the younger weaker cousin of the Thanos we already saw die. Introducing him into the story again didn't work for me.
    There is also something less compelling about trying to get something back you already lost, than that fear of losing something you already have.. maybe that is a deep human urge that means that it didn't feel as intense as IW.


 

I loved Endgame but I have to agree (and mentioned this in one of my first posts) that I did feel Infinity War was a stronger movie in terms of narrative.

IW has the benefit of having a simple, strong linear storyline. You didn't have to think too much, you just enjoyed the ride. Thanos as the unifying thread, a real sense of danger, lots of characters get their moments in the sun.

Through no fault of its own, Endgame has to be a bit more complicated with emotional snap fallout, time travel etc. I personally didn't like the first hour and thought the buildup was too slow. The pacing of IW I felt was fairly even, but this seemed a slow burner with a sudden final buildup.

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12 minutes ago, karaddin said:

ETA - HOI - I actually found this Thanos more threatening not less. IW Thanos did have the inevitability this Thanos was claiming, but he also had this supreme arrogance that led to him not killing people when he had the opportunity. This Thanos knows that they come up with a genuine threat to his plan and has taken the gloves off, if he gets an opening someone will die. And unlike IW which I only saw knowing a decent amount of it would be undone, anyone that died in this one was going to stay dead.

I agree, I found this Thanos quite scary. Armed with the knowledge of what had happened, he was more dangerous (albeit without the growing collection of Infinity Stones).

Only one quibble, if Stormbreaker was powerful enough to negate a full Infinity Gauntlet energy blast, surely Thor should have been able to kill a non-gauntleted Thanos (or Stormbreaker would have cleaved through his oversized letter opener of a sword).

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Hmm, maybe its not that I found Thanos less threatening, but that by reintroducing him after killing him off, and then having him pursue the stones again, it narratively became less interesting because I've already seen him get them before and use them. It was like there was a 50% drop off in interest from me every time Thanos has to go and try and get the stones again. Just because he is now threatening to wipe everyone out instead of half of everyone doesn't make him twice as scary, i've already seen it sorta.

I think they kind of dug themselves a hole by killing Thanos off so early. What seemed like a brilliant twist at first seemed to leave the whole movie bereft of a motivational opposing force.

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To me, Thanos wasn't collecting the Stones, he was waiting until he could steal the completed gauntlet. I assume that's why old Nebula called him in after the Gauntlet was reconstructed and not before. (A part of me did wonder if they'd follow the comics and have old Nebula run in to wield the gauntlet instead and lord it over Thanos momentarily who would then take it from her)

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8 minutes ago, Jeor said:

To me, Thanos wasn't collecting the Stones, he was waiting until he could steal the completed gauntlet. I assume that's why old Nebula called him in after the Gauntlet was reconstructed and not before. (A part of me did wonder if they'd follow the comics and have old Nebula run in to wield the gauntlet instead and lord it over Thanos momentarily who would then take it from her)

Yeah I said collecting stones, but really I guess I mean he basically had the same objective and was just going to redo something he had already done (although a more devestating version) which narratively I found a lot less compelling.

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Posted (edited)

At one point when Nebula was strung up, which paralleled how she was in IW, I wondered if actually this was all part of one timeline and that this had ALWAYS happened. That might have been a bit more interesting for me, I find time travel a bit of a cop out.

Edited by Heartofice

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4 hours ago, karaddin said:

Not when they're saying its distinct timelines. They leave T2 and T3 and return to their own T1 when they return to the present. I almost feel like this needs to be explained with pictures as words just aren't conveying it well.

But by creating new timelines in the past means that when they travel back to the future it should be the future of the time-line they created. 

Otherwise they are jumping between dimensions instead of jumping in time. 

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

But by creating new timelines in the past means that when they travel back to the future it should be the future of the time-line they created. 

Otherwise they are jumping between dimensions instead of jumping in time. 

You’re basically right, they are. Essentially their wristbands act as tether ropes to their own present, doesn’t matter what you do in any point in time, press that button and you’ll be back on the platform with history exactly as you remember it.

You're using Back to the Future II rules (they have to go to 1955 not 2015) which they explicitly cite as not how things work.

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3 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

Boy was that fun or what? I'm so glad I had zero idea about anything.

Aa usual, time travel movies never ever make any damn sense but at least they made fun of that. Agreed that we'll see in Far From Home how they handle it, the 5 year thing really seems like a big confusion. All further movies take place 5 years of dystopia later? Hmm.

It's going to be a nightmare with birth certificates where there's a 5 year gap for people born on the same date unless the snap conveniently took people based on DOB. Then it will be a bit like being born on a leap year day.

Otherwise some folks are getting to collect their pensions earlier. Also if Trump was snapped would it count against the two term rule? Would his wall be built when the USA has potentially lost 50% of its population (or is the USA so full it can absorb the losses?)

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2 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

You’re basically right, they are. Essentially their wristbands act as tether ropes to their own present, doesn’t matter what you do in any point in time, press that button and you’ll be back on the platform with history exactly as you remember it.

You're using Back to the Future II rules (they have to go to 1955 not 2015) which they explicitly cite as not how things work.

It isn t exactly back to the future rules. It is more saying that they shouldn t be able to jump between diferent timelines (dimensions). 

Because while I agree that nothing that they do in the past will change the time-line (dimension) they are in, the moment they change something in the past they create another timeline (dimension). And as they are in the past they become integrated in this new timeline (dimension). There when they time travel they should travel in the time of this new dimension they created and not in their original timeline (dimension). 

 

Another important thing, the only thing this movie contradicts the back to the future trilogy is that whatever doc and Marty do in the past has no influence in them because they are from another timeline (dimension). However doc has a time machine! Not a dimension travel machine! So by creating a new timeline when they travel in time, they travel in the new timeline and not in their original timeline. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, divica said:

There when they time travel they should travel in the time of this new dimension they created and not in their original timeline (dimension). 

Should according to your rules, not the movie’s. If it helps to call it a dimension jumper, go ahead, that’s basically what it is. Maybe Doctor Strange 2 can do some heavy lifting with explaining what’s gone on here.

Edited by DaveSumm

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Just now, DaveSumm said:

Should according to your rules, not the movies. If it help to call it a dimension jumper, go ahead, that’s basically what it is. Maybe Doctor Strange 2 can do some heavy lifting with explaining what’s gone on here.

I am only saying should because they called it time travel. And what they are doing isn t exactly time travel. I Don t think they anyone talked about jumping between timelines when they were explaining the plan. 

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9 hours ago, karaddin said:

From the other thread

Which scene did you cry at?

When Thor met his mum again, and she just saw right through all his bluster and how bad a time he'd been having. I really wasn't expecting it to affect me that much either, Thor 2 is not the best film. It's not all that often characters are allowed to be shown to be that vulnerable, and with a loving mother figure who just wants the best for them. 

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Should according to your rules, not the movie’s. If it helps to call it a dimension jumper, go ahead, that’s basically what it is. Maybe Doctor Strange 2 can do some heavy lifting with explaining what’s gone on here.

Hopefully they'll use it to generate a story eg all this messing with time and other dimensions has wreaked havoc, unleashed dark forces. Same goes for ant-man and the quantum realm.

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I haven’t seen the film yet and won’t get to for a while i don’t think, so i am not trying to avoid spoilers. A question for @karaddin (well anyone really, but your insight is always appreciated). I’ve watched some spoiler reviews that talk about some bold choices with Captain Marvel with even more overt LGBTQI+ signalling than her solo film. Did you find this to be the case? The reviews didnt really specify what these choices were, regrettably. Also, was there any set up for a Valkyrie/Captain Marvel movie, romance or, well, anything really. (I know how Valkyrie ends already and cannot wait to see her on her Pegasus)

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4 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I haven’t seen the film yet and won’t get to for a while i don’t think, so i am not trying to avoid spoilers. A question for @karaddin (well anyone really, but your insight is always appreciated). I’ve watched some spoiler reviews that talk about some bold choices with Captain Marvel with even more overt LGBTQI+ signalling than her solo film. Did you find this to be the case? The reviews didnt really specify what these choices were, regrettably. Also, was there any set up for a Valkyrie/Captain Marvel movie, romance or, well, anything really. (I know how Valkyrie ends already and cannot wait to see her on her Pegasus)

I think the boldest move they did for cap marvel was her new haircut... Which I thought was really bad (Halle berry catwoma's bad). 

And no romance for cap marvel

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I don't recall any Valkyrie / Captain Marvel interaction. The Pegasus is fucking baller.

 

Captain Marvel really isn't in this very much, and it's mostly action scenes. Beyond her hair I (a straight white man) didn't notice much difference from her stand alone film.

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