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Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

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Thinking about the Captain Marvel mid-credit scene: I assume she came to Earth, asked where Fury was, they explained and said ‘oh, before we go any further, could you save our friend Tony who went to (...did they have any means of knowing where he was?....)’ so that they all knew each other when she got there in Endgame? I don’t remember if there were any introductions.

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5 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Thinking about the Captain Marvel mid-credit scene: I assume she came to Earth, asked where Fury was, they explained and said ‘oh, before we go any further, could you save our friend Tony who went to (...did they have any means of knowing where he was?....)’ so that they all knew each other when she got there in Endgame? I don’t remember if there were any introductions.

Rocket may have had a way to locate the ship. I don't know how they would have known Tony was there, maybe Carol didn't know what she would find. So Rocket could have simply asked to go look for the ship, because that's where his friends are, and she came back with Tony and Nebula.

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2 hours ago, Jeor said:

To me, Thanos wasn't collecting the Stones, he was waiting until he could steal the completed gauntlet. I assume that's why old Nebula called him in after the Gauntlet was reconstructed and not before. (A part of me did wonder if they'd follow the comics and have old Nebula run in to wield the gauntlet instead and lord it over Thanos momentarily who would then take it from her)

Yeah this was how I saw it as well - that he was letting them do all the work and was going to pounce and make everything even worse.

2 hours ago, divica said:

I am only saying should because they called it time travel. And what they are doing isn t exactly time travel. I Don t think they anyone talked about jumping between timelines when they were explaining the plan. 

Its time travel when they go back, its functionally dimension travel when they return to their own timeline. Its their action that creates the new timeline - picture the conversation with Banner and The Ancient One, the new timeline forks off from the point of their intervention.

1 hour ago, The BlackBear said:

When Thor met his mum again, and she just saw right through all his bluster and how bad a time he'd been having. I really wasn't expecting it to affect me that much either, Thor 2 is not the best film. It's not all that often characters are allowed to be shown to be that vulnerable, and with a loving mother figure who just wants the best for them. 

Yeah that really got me as well, an unexpected and fantastic scene.

20 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I haven’t seen the film yet and won’t get to for a while i don’t think, so i am not trying to avoid spoilers. A question for @karaddin (well anyone really, but your insight is always appreciated). I’ve watched some spoiler reviews that talk about some bold choices with Captain Marvel with even more overt LGBTQI+ signalling than her solo film. Did you find this to be the case? The reviews didnt really specify what these choices were, regrettably. Also, was there any set up for a Valkyrie/Captain Marvel movie, romance or, well, anything really. (I know how Valkyrie ends already and cannot wait to see her on her Pegasus)

I didn't really pick up on anything more than the haircut which is very gay. I think on its own that wouldn't be enough, but taken with everything from CM where she was clearly raising a kid with Maria then disappears for 6 years and as soon as she gets back (even without her memory) she picks an outfit that fits within fashion for a lesbian in the time period. She then takes off for 20 years and as soon as she gets back she gets a haircut that again is very in line with lesbian fashion for the time. I'm interested to watch it again and see if there's more I didn't pick up on but she doesn't have a ton of screen time for me to be missing it. Can you point me towards the reviews?

Nothing really towards Valkyrie/Carol but I think given what the actresses are doing off screen and the reaction it gets from what would be the target audience, they would be passing up an opportunity if they ignore it. And they're both in circumstances that could easily go there since they don't have clear paths set up for their next movies. That road trip movie I want could even still happen, just without Thor lol.

6 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Thinking about the Captain Marvel mid-credit scene: I assume she came to Earth, asked where Fury was, they explained and said ‘oh, before we go any further, could you save our friend Tony who went to (...did they have any means of knowing where he was?....)’ so that they all knew each other when she got there in Endgame? I don’t remember if there were any introductions.

Yeah it doesn't make any sense otherwise - her arriving with the guardians ship in this movie being her first arrival doesn't mesh at all with that scene.

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I'm wondering which 8 minute stuff RDJ was talking about that this is the best Marvel has done? The time travel, mainly NYC stuff? Or the battle, with Tony's end? Or just the afterwards stuff?

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Here’s the links to past MCU films that I noticed:

Iron Man: ‘I am Iron Man’, cheeseburgers, take your pick.

The Incredible Hulk: Ross is present at Tony’s funeral? Feels a little weak though.

Iron Man 2: All the stuff with Tony’s Dad ties mostly back to that film.

Thor: Thor gives us the gist in his ramblings about the ether.

Captain America: The First Avenger: Cap gets his dance, New Jersey, ‘taking all the stupid with you’, again take your pick really.

The Avengers: Literally visited.

Iron Man 3: The kid is at the funeral, maybe Pepper wearing armour?

Thor: The Dark World: Literally visited.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier: New Jersey, Heil Hydra, the elevator in general, Robert Redford, probably more.

Guardians of the Galaxy: Literally visited.

Avengers: Age Of Ultron: Cap nearly lifting Mjolnir, probably others I’m forgetting.

Ant-Man: Hmm... can’t think of anything specific. Obviously the quantum realm plays a huge part but that’s not really specific to this movie and not the sequel.

Captain America: Civil War: Tony and Cap’s relationship in general, ‘Queens’, plus Scott introduces himself saying ‘we met in Berlin’.

Doctor Strange: The Ancient One.

Guardians of the Galaxy 2: Nebula and Gamorrah’s relationship, Quill and Gamorrah ... it’s all tangled up really.

Spider-Man: Homecoming: Peter and Ned’s reunion at the end? Possibly others.

Thor: Ragnarok: Korg and Miek are back! 

Black Panther: Well, they’re all in it. Can’t think of anything more specific off the top of my head.

Avengers: Infinity War: ... duh.

Ant-Man and the Wasp: Maybe Janet Van Dyne being at the funeral? Plus Scott talks about the events obviously.

Captain Marvel: She’s ... in it. 

I could really picture them writing the script and thinking ‘hey it’d be cool to have a specific callback to every movie’, so I reckon there’s stronger examples for some of them.

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14 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Thor: Ragnarok: Korg and Miek are back! 

And Valkyrie, and the Asgardians living in Norway.

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3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

And Valkyrie, and the Asgardians living in Norway.

weren t all asgardians dead? I sincerely thought that thanos killed them all

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Just now, divica said:

weren t all asgardians dead? I sincerely thought that thanos killed them all

No, half died on the ship, the rest survived. Maybe another half got snapped, but those would have come back now. When we go to Norway, the town plaque says welcome to New Asgard.

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Posted (edited)

The rules of time travel in the MCU were all laid out in the conversation between Hulk and the Ancient One, who's been using the Time Stone for 700 years so I trust her practical experience over everyone else discussing Back to the Future.

The situation is:

  • You can't change the past to correct your present as that merely creates a branching alternate timeline. So you can't kill Thanos as a baby or stop him doing the Snap. That would just create a new reality. Earth-199999 (the official designation of the MCU) would keep trucking along with half of everyone still dead.
  • However, time is also somewhat elastic. As long as you repair what damage you inflict, you can change things a little bit and the timeline adjusts without creating an alternate reality.
  • The alternate realities are still legitimate universes with matter and energy, so you can bring people/objects from those timelines into your present and still use them to affect your reality. Ethically, that does also mean those realities are just as "real" as your original one. Sacrificing billions of people to die in one reality (because, say, the Time Stone isn't around to stop Dormammu from eating the planet in Doctor Strange, or the Mind Stone isn't around to create Vision and thus save the world from Ultron) to save billions in another is still dark as fuck.

What we observe happening in the films is:

  • Trip to The Dark World: Rocket extracts the Aether from Jane without her realising, Thor has a heart-to-heart with his mother, who keeps quiet about it. Captain America returns and restores the Aether to Jane, presumably also without her realising, for the events of The Dark World to unfold as well. No new timeline created.
  • Trip to The Avengers: the team grab the Mind and Time Stones but otherwise completely fuck this one up, as Loki escapes with the Space Stone and Cap fights a doppelganger of himself. This would appear to create a new reality. One possible solution is that Captain America returns the Time Stone to the Ancient One and she then uses the Time Stone to prevent Loki escaping with the Space Stone and Captain America from fighting with himself. thus restoring the timeline and preventing a new timeline from being created. Alternatively, there is some unseen side-adventure where Loki and the Space Stone are recaptured by the Avengers in 2012.
  • Trip to 1970: the team grab the Space Stone undetected, Cap puts it back, no new timeline (we see in Civil War that 21-year-old Tony doesn't look much like 46-year-old Tony, explaining why old Howard doesn't recognise him).
  • Trip to 2014: major FUBAR, as Thanos and his entire space fleet disappear from 2014 to be destroyed on Earth in 2023. Fixing this seems to be a very tall order. One possibility is that Tony fixed this timeline with the Infinity Gauntlet, reinstating Thanos and his minions with their memories wiped. Another, and this refers to 2012 as well, is that the restoration of all six Infinity Stones to their correct place simply reinstates the timeline. The Ancient One seems to allude to this in her discussion with Hulk, that the Stones can restore damaged timelines just by being around.
  • Cap returning to Peggy Carter and staying in the same timeline as the end of the film. This is critical, as it supports the theory that Cap returning all of the Infinity Stones to their correct location collapsed all the timelines back into one. If that hadn't happened, he would not show up in the same timeline having aged naturally, he'd need to have returned using the platform machine. This does require Cap to have lived undercover with Peggy, for her not to have told anyone, for him to have stayed out of the limelight at all, all whilst she's still working at SHIELD. It's certainly doable, and might explain Peggy's philosophical attitude to, say, Hank Pym quitting SHIELD in 1989. She knows it works out eventually. So yes, our Peggy from the previous movies and Agent Carter does end up with Cap, and thank fuck for that.
Quote

Shouldn't they return to a diferente timeline if they change something significantly in the past?

The big machine they were using appears to be an anchor point. It opens a quantum tunnel between their destination locations and the origin point: they can fuck things up, jump to other timezones etc, but as long as they use the tunnel to return to their origin point, they will always return to Earth-199999 in 2023. If the tunnel was destroyed or switched off, they would lose that anchor point (although if it was shut down and reactivated, they might be able to reacquire it, as the rat did when it reactivated the quantum tunnel in the van to bring Ant-Man back at the start of the film).

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One completely unrelated question I have is - if the Avengers facilities are able to build an infinity gauntlet with the nanotech, why did Thanos need to have it done by Giant Dinklage? Is it possible that while these other cultures/planets have much more advanced weapons and ships, earths nanotech manufacturing is actually cutting edge?

The time travel tech and the Infinity Gauntlet Mk. 2 are a combination of Earth tech, nanotech and the outer space, alien tech provided by Rocket. Possibly some Asgardians and Wakandans got in on the action as well.

I think the inference is that it's still not as hardcore as Thanos's Gauntlet, but it does the job in a pinch.

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Ant-Man: Hmm... can’t think of anything specific. Obviously the quantum realm plays a huge part but that’s not really specific to this movie and not the sequel.

The main connection I noted was Hank Pym working for SHIELD with Howard and Peggy (which he does in the Ant-Man opening, when he quits). 

Quote

Spider-Man: Homecoming: Peter and Ned’s reunion at the end? Possibly others.

"Activate Instant Kill."

Edited by Werthead

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There’s a potentially interesting time loop/paradox regarding Mjolnir:

Thor takes Mjolnir with him, and Steve then wields it, proving his worthy. But did he somehow become worthy between Age of Ultron and now? What special stuff did he do to become worthy?

Or, was he always worthy, but Mjolnir did not respond to him because it would have affected the timeline?

Steve is the one who returns the stones to their proper time, and it doesn’t appear that Thor participated in any way in that. So it’s conceivable that Steve was the one who returned Mjolnir along with the Aether. So Steve would have wielded Mjonlir in the past, as well, before the AoU party. But Mjolnir itself, a weapon with a powerful spell on it, only budged and resisted Steve’s attempt, because it would have potentially screwed up the timeline.

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2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

There’s a potentially interesting time loop/paradox regarding Mjolnir:

Thor takes Mjolnir with him, and Steve then wields it, proving his worthy. But did he somehow become worthy between Age of Ultron and now? What special stuff did he do to become worthy?

Or, was he always worthy, but Mjolnir did not respond to him because it would have affected the timeline?

Steve is the one who returns the stones to their proper time, and it doesn’t appear that Thor participated in any way in that. So it’s conceivable that Steve was the one who returned Mjolnir along with the Aether. So Steve would have wielded Mjonlir in the past, as well, before the AoU party. But Mjolnir itself, a weapon with a powerful spell on it, only budged and resisted Steve’s attempt, because it would have potentially screwed up the timeline.

I guess he had civil war and infinity under his belt. Also he didn't say "sod it" and stay with carter back in the 70s. Maybe his virginity had hit critical worthiness 5 years in future? Running that counseling session maybe helped too.

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RE: The Captain Marvel haircut -- I mean, you can attribute it to being a "lesbian" haircut, but I didn't interpret it as them making any specific statement in the film about her sexuality more than I thought they gave her the Kelly Sue Deconnick haircut from the original Captain Marvel (Carol) run. The irony is they just had Carol grow her hair out in the comics from the short cut...and now the film gives her the short cut. Wonder if the comics will again try and go that route.

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4 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Thor takes Mjolnir with him, and Steve then wields it, proving his worthy. But did he somehow become worthy between Age of Ultron and now? What special stuff did he do to become worthy?

I have seen people everywhere discussing that Steve had been worthy all along. When he jokingly attempted to lift it in Age of Ultron, the Hammer already budged (accompanied by a audio cue and Thor's expression derailing as he watched that). I have seen people arguing that Steve just pretended not to be able to lift the hammer to not embarrass Thor. A theory I find very likely, given how Steve was uncharacteristically nervous as he tried to laugh it off afterwards. Other arguments I have seen were people mentioning an interview with Whedon where he avoided the issue... as well as the fact that comic Steve is blatantly able to lift the hammer.

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Yeah this was how I saw it as well - that he was letting them do all the work and was going to pounce and make everything even worse.

Its time travel when they go back, its functionally dimension travel when they return to their own timeline. Its their action that creates the new timeline - picture the conversation with Banner and The Ancient One, the new timeline forks off from the point of their intervention.

Yeah that really got me as well, an unexpected and fantastic scene.

I didn't really pick up on anything more than the haircut which is very gay. I think on its own that wouldn't be enough, but taken with everything from CM where she was clearly raising a kid with Maria then disappears for 6 years and as soon as she gets back (even without her memory) she picks an outfit that fits within fashion for a lesbian in the time period. She then takes off for 20 years and as soon as she gets back she gets a haircut that again is very in line with lesbian fashion for the time. I'm interested to watch it again and see if there's more I didn't pick up on but she doesn't have a ton of screen time for me to be missing it. Can you point me towards the reviews?

Nothing really towards Valkyrie/Carol but I think given what the actresses are doing off screen and the reaction it gets from what would be the target audience, they would be passing up an opportunity if they ignore it. And they're both in circumstances that could easily go there since they don't have clear paths set up for their next movies. That road trip movie I want could even still happen, just without Thor lol.

Yeah it doesn't make any sense otherwise - her arriving with the guardians ship in this movie being her first arrival doesn't mesh at all with that scene.

Thanks for the response. It was Beyond the Trailer, both spoiler and non-spoiler review. She mentioned the haircut but from what she said i assumed there was more. She also mentioned Thompson and Larson’s interaction on social media etc though so may just have been that. I thought the stuff in Captain Marvel pretty much confirmed it anyway so i hope they do go that route with her character. Its kind of sad that 20 movies in with plenty of hetro romances we’ve not really got any explicit non-hetero romance.

Just give me more Tessa Thompson and Brie Larson together :P 

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26 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The Ancient One seems to allude to this in her discussion with Hulk, that the Stones can restore damaged timelines just by being around.

Ah, nice catch. That makes me feel better about it, I normally don’t like it when the timeline ‘magically’ does things for itself as if it has some agency, but I could see the stones being powerful enough to do that. There’s also a bonus to this theory: the stones are now part of a closed loop: they’re created, momentarily borrowed by Endgame, then acquired by Thanos, used for the snap, and then they destroy themselves. Even though the technology still exists, the fact that the stones won’t repair timelines rules out time travel for the rest of the MCU. So we avoid all the classic ‘why don’t they just go back and...’ questions.

26 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The main connection I noted was Hank Pym working for SHIELD with Howard and Peggy (which he does in the Ant-Man opening, when he quits). 

"Activate Instant Kill."

Ooo nice, thanks. Those are the kind of specific callbacks I was looking for.

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1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Thanks for the response. It was Beyond the Trailer, both spoiler and non-spoiler review. She mentioned the haircut but from what she said i assumed there was more. She also mentioned Thompson and Larson’s interaction on social media etc though so may just have been that. I thought the stuff in Captain Marvel pretty much confirmed it anyway so i hope they do go that route with her character. Its kind of sad that 20 movies in with plenty of hetro romances we’ve not really got any explicit non-hetero romance.

Just give me more Tessa Thompson and Brie Larson together :P 

Bolded - amen.

There is an explicitly queer character in this movie, they're a minor role but its a guy talking about finally going on a date again after the 5 year gap and it was with another guy. Also confirmed Steve isn't a homophobe despite the time he came from which is nice lol.

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With regards to Steve’s worthiness, I don’t know why we need a specific reason. He’s grown a lot over those 8 years (2015 - 2018 plus 5), I totally buy that he just became worthy. 

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1 minute ago, karaddin said:

Bolded - amen.

There is an explicitly queer character in this movie, they're a minor role but its a guy talking about finally going on a date again after the 5 year gap and it was with another guy. Also confirmed Steve isn't a homophobe despite the time he came from which is nice lol.

And that guy was played by Joe Russo.

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