Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Actually I'm gonna quibble with that quite a bit. In the DofP storyline, Kitty travels back from the future to warn the existing timeline at that point about things - but the DoFP timeline still exists. At that moment, the timeline alternates and splits. We also see that in the AoA universe, which is another timeline split when Xavier is killed by Legion. The AoA timeline didn't go away when they repaired some things, and AoA versions could come into ours, but our timeline didn't disappear either. Both existed, and per the comics one could go back and forth between them. 

In DoFP the movie; Wolverine's consciousness was sent back in time to the 70's then he changed the actions of Mystique and based on the changes he made the entire future changed, Wolverines entire past changed. When his consciousness arrived back in the present everything was different and he did not remember the last 50 years.

 

These rules are COMPLETELY the opposite of what just happened in Endgame, yet it's all Marvel.

but 100% they changed the past which then changed the Future. There were no alternate timelines.

Hank McCoy explains it by saying that time is a river and nothing you can do changes it unless you change something big enough to change the entire flow of the river.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

In DoFP the movie; Wolverine's consciousness was sent back in time to the 70's then he changed the actions of Mystique and based on the changes he made the entire future changed, Wolverines entire past changed. When his consciousness arrived back in the present everything was different and he did not remember the last 50 years. 

Sorry, that's the bullshit fox universe by Singer. That has no bearing on this. 

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 These rules are COMPLETELY the opposite of what just happened in Endgame, yet it's all Marvel. 

Not run by the same people with the same rules. At all. 

Are you also going to suggest that because Deadpool went  back in time and killed Ryan Reynolds that Green Lantern doesn't exist?

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

but 100% they changed the past which then changed the Future. There were no alternate timelines. 

In the shitty XMen movies, absolutely.

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Hank McCoy explains it by saying that time is a river and nothing you can do changes it unless you change something big enough to change the entire flow of the river.

And we have very specific contradiction to that in this movie.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 

Here's the other thing: we KNOW that there is a Loki spinoff coming up. If what you and @Werthead are saying is true, what's there to spin off? He's dead. Why bother having him teleport away with the Space Stone if it's just going to get erased and ignored? 

See above. 

Really, once Loki fucked off with the space stone that caused enough weirdness alone that shouldn't be magically fixable. 

See I think they put Loki escaping in to explain why his character is still alive in upcoming Marvel movies. Which would totally throw off everything you are saying about the rules.  If what you say is right then Loki is dead no matter what and he'll never show up again past 2023. I think he will be in more movies.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

See I think they put Loki escaping in to explain why his character is still alive in upcoming Marvel movies. Which would totally throw off everything you are saying about the rules.  If what you say is right then Loki is dead no matter what and he'll never show up again past 2023.

That is LITERALLY the opposite of what I'm saying.

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think he will be in more movies.

I do too! With the tesseract! 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Sorry, that's the bullshit fox universe by Singer. That has no bearing on this. 

Not run by the same people with the same rules. At all. 

Are you also going to suggest that because Deadpool went  back in time and killed Ryan Reynolds that Green Lantern doesn't exist?

In the shitty XMen movies, absolutely.

And we have very specific contradiction to that in this movie.

I'm saying that you can change the Past/Future in the comics, which was shown on several Marvel movies, no matter who produced them. So sure for this one movie [Endgame] they seemed to have changed all the time travel rules, so they are being inconsistent from the comics and from other Marvel movies.

How can you call DofP shitty?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That is LITERALLY the opposite of what I'm saying.

 

You said 'you can't change the past' about 20 times. Loki died in the past, so according to you that cannot be changed.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I'm saying that you can change the Past/Future in the comics, which was shown on several Marvel movies, no matter who produced them. So sure for this one movie [Endgame] they seemed to have changed all the time travel rules, so they are being inconsistent from the comics and from other Marvel movies.

They're not being that inconsistent from the comics (in the comics alternate realities cease to exist all the time, but they also can stick around too) but yes, they're absolutely being inconsistent from the X-men and Deadpool time travel stories, which are themselves inconsistent with each other. 

That doesn't make you right about it. That just makes this inconsistent. 

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

How can you call DofP shitty?

DoFP (and Apocalypse) is almost a perfect beat for beat recreation of X-Men 2, and it's getting very stale. (heck, want to talk about inconsistency, let's talk about Kitty's ability to send people through time). 

 

4 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

You said 'you can't change the past' about 20 times. Loki died in the past, so according to you that cannot be changed.

Prime Loki died in the past. Alt-Loki is still alive and well, and out there somewhere. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

They're not being that inconsistent from the comics (in the comics alternate realities cease to exist all the time, but they also can stick around too) but yes, they're absolutely being inconsistent from the X-men and Deadpool time travel stories, which are themselves inconsistent with each other. 

That doesn't make you right about it. That just makes this inconsistent. 

 

That's all I was saying, that it's completely inconsistent with comics (in the comics you can change the past and also create alt-timelines)and past movies. So yes I was right (since you feel it was necessary to point out I wasn't right.)

 

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Prime Loki died in the past. Alt-Loki is still alive and well, and out there somewhere. 

Dude, If you are going with the Ancient One's explanation, then Alt-Loki ceased to exist the moment the stones got returned by Cap. Or if you are saying the Alt-timelines continue to exist even after the stones got replaced (which is NOT what the Ancient One said) then Loki is stuck on an Alt-Timeline and will still never be able to show back up on our main timeline.

I am saying that Loki escaped and that is all that was needed to bring him back to life in future movies. which throws off a lot of these rules and theories.

[Corvinus85]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Prime Loki died in the past. Alt-Loki is still alive and well, and out there somewhere. 

In which timeline, though?

[polishgenius]

Why are we suddenly talking about X-Men movies that have no relevance to this 'verse?

 

[Bastard of Boston]

4 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

That's all I was saying, that it's completely inconsistent with comics (in the comics you can change the past and also create alt-timelines)and past movies. So yes I was right (since you feel it was necessary to point out I wasn't right.)

 

Dude, If you are going with the Ancient One's explanation, then Alt-Loki ceased to exist the moment the stones got returned by Cap. Or if you are saying the Alt-timelines continue to exist even after the stones got replaced (which is NOT what the Ancient One said) then Loki is stuck on an Alt-Timeline and will still never be able to show back up on our main timeline.

I am saying that Loki escaped and that is all that was needed to bring him back to life in future movies. which throws off a lot of these rules and theories.

The Ancient One DID say that the alt universes continue to exist. Her point was that the stones can't be removed from the different universes, as they are necessary for each universe. The Ancient One ultimately did not want to part with the Time Stone, because without the Time Stone, her universe would be without one of its pillars of creation.

The real question here is, where is OUR universe now that Thanos destroyed our stones? Will they respawn, as they did in the comics?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

That's all I was saying, that it's completely inconsistent with comics (in the comics you can change the past and also create alt-timelines)and past movies. So yes I was right (since you feel it was necessary to point out I wasn't right.) 

Again, you really weren't. There are a whole lot of examples of where you're wrong in the comics (and in Deadpool). It is all over the place depending on the device and the way the timeline was changed. Hell, if you want to get really into it the Infinity Stones have been used to change reality and erase other realities without altering the memories of many of the people (but altering some of them). 

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

Dude, If you are going with the Ancient One's explanation, then Alt-Loki ceased to exist the moment the stones got returned by Cap.

 

That's Wert's interpretation, not mine. 

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Or if you are saying the Alt-timelines continue to exist even after the stones got replaced (which is NOT what the Ancient One said) 

Again, I interpret it differently.

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

then Loki is stuck on an Alt-Timeline and will still never be able to show back up on our main timeline. 

If only he had some way of bending space to his will with some miraculous item

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I am saying that Loki escaped and that is all that was needed to bring him back to life in future movies.

Except that doesn't make any sense at all, because then the past can be changed, and then that means all of Dark World goes to shit and the Dark Elves obliterated the universe. 

3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

In which timeline, though?

Right now, I think he's in the Alt-Loki timeline. In that timeline, Thanos never went to the future and is still searching for the stones, GotG still happens as we know it. Don't know what happened with Dark World, but I'm going to fanwank that Loki found out that Melkor or whatever his name was trying to destroy Asgard and used the cube to come and help at the last minute instead of hanging out in the jail, and then otherwise things basically happened as they did in our universe. 

Or maybe not! 

[red snow]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

The movie specifically says it's all life, everywhere. The number of birds doubling outside Avengers HQ is the first clue that Scott picks up on that the reverse-snap worked.

The directors at one point said sentient life while the writers said all life (or vice versa). But half the number of insects, plants and bacteria would almost certainly be extinction level for creatures higher up the food chain. It works better as sentient life. Maybe the birds were corvids? And it is a superhero film so probably best to just roll with it.

What could be interesting and almost ironic is that Thanos may actually have saved the earth as 5 years with half the people and energy consumption probably was a game-changer. Combined with with wakanda sharing its tech and the MCU world could be quite different going forward.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, you really weren't. There are a whole lot of examples of where you're wrong in the comics (and in Deadpool). It is all over the place depending on the device and the way the timeline was changed. Hell, if you want to get really into it the Infinity Stones have been used to change reality and erase other realities without altering the memories of many of the people (but altering some of them). 

 

What exactly am I so wrong about? Since that is now all you are trying to point out?

At first I was just asking general questions on the thread with no POV, then I came to the conclusion that Endgame is very inconsistent with the comics and other Marvel movies which you agreed with.

 

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Except that doesn't make any sense at all, because then the past can be changed, and then that means all of Dark World goes to shit and the Dark Elves obliterated the universe. 

 

Exactly my point, in an effort to free up Loki for other movies they were sloppy.

[DaveSumm]

13 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Why are we suddenly talking about X-Men movies that have no relevance to this 'verse?

Indeed. The fact that Marvel owned them before (and have since re-acquired them) doesn’t change the fact that those are Fox movies, not Marvel Studios movies.

I think it’d be a bit rubbish if the Loki series was about an off-shoot Tesseract wielding one, it’d be better as a prequel. Or, personally, I’d be better off without it at all seeing as I’m pretty bored of Loki. The scene where he takes the Tesseract still serves a purpose in that it forces them to go back to the 70’s and steal it from there instead.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

What exactly am I so wrong about? Since that is now all you are trying to point out?

That time travel always changes the past, that you can't have more than one of the same person in the same place, that changing the past erases the future. Other than that, you're spot on. 

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

At first I was just asking general questions on the thread with no POV, then I came to the conclusion that Endgame is very inconsistent with the comics and other Marvel movies which you agreed with. 

It's inconsistent with the Xmen movies. It's not inconsistent with the Marvel ones. 
 

And it is at best reasonably consistent with some of the comics. 

 

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Right now, I think he's in the Alt-Loki timeline. In that timeline, Thanos never went to the future and is still searching for the stones, GotG still happens as we know it. Don't know what happened with Dark World, but I'm going to fanwank that Loki found out that Melkor or whatever his name was trying to destroy Asgard and used the cube to come and help at the last minute instead of hanging out in the jail, and then otherwise things basically happened as they did in our universe. 

Or maybe not! 

Malekith, but Melkor's cool too. Silmarils, Infinity Stones, all powerful glowy rocks!!!

Anyway, he might be using the Tesseract to go to Asgard, but not for altruistic reasons. This is still the evil Loki whose chief desire is to be king. So he may attempt to use the stone to usurp the throne, fail and get captured, and be there for the Dark World events. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Corvinus said:

Malekith, but Melkor's cool too. Silmarils, Infinity Stones, all powerful glowy rocks!!!

Anyway, he might be using the Tesseract to go to Asgard, but not for altruistic reasons. This is still the evil Loki whose chief desire is to be king. So he may attempt to use the stone to usurp the throne, fail and get captured, and be there for the Dark World events. 

Yeah, but then he just dies and it's over, and where's the fun in that. 

Though more interesting to me is the Alt-Thanos universe, where the stones are fine but Thanos isn't around to pursue them at all. 

[Corvinus85]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, but then he just dies and it's over, and where's the fun in that. 

Though more interesting to me is the Alt-Thanos universe, where the stones are fine but Thanos isn't around to pursue them at all. 

Enter Galactus 

[DaveSumm]

EDIT: sorry, trying to copy a link and can’t seem to get it right.

It was an image of the battle with Howard the Duck behind the Wasp. Haven’t diligently checked it’s accuracy yet though.