Pebble thats Stubby Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 29 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Well I said if you go by their promises not by their actions. My point was that there is confusion as to who represents what. Both labour and conservatives are not seen as either entirely remain or leave parties. The comment I was answering seemed to assume that the Brexit party was the only party representing Brexit, which clearly isn’t true. ( although it’s popularity is due to it advocating the most strongly for Brexit, where others are more half hearted) UKIP = Hard no deal Brexit with extra racism and nazi wannabe leadership Brexit party = hard no deal brexit. DUP Hard brexit with unicorn boarder. Torries = mostly hard brexit with maybe a deal Labour = brexit with a deal, just not any realistic deal. and if we don't get that maybe we will make some noises to a 2nd ref but won't follow though. At least this is my opinion. but both conservative and labour candidates will try to pick up remain votes especially those with a remain candidate and in remain constituencies (which work rather differently in the EU elections) Also may campaign on more than one issue. Labour have been making big noises to say they still kinda support a 2nd ref even if the leadership have no intention of ever allowing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Politics is certainly realigning tonight as the Tories take control of Grimsby and Walsall, while getting a beating in the London Stockbroker Belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 6 hours ago, SeanF said: Politics is certainly realigning tonight as the Tories take control of Grimsby and Walsall, while getting a beating in the London Stockbroker Belt. Well, on that note let me quote: Local elections have a low turnout and should always be taken with a huge pinch of salt, correspondingly. In other news, Rory Stewart has announced he wants to be our next PM! I admit it. I had to read the story to get any idea of who this person was. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48140849 Liz Truss, Amber Rudd, whoever this guy is, Justine Greening... it's quite the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 https://twitter.com/bbcelection/status/1124277693716017153 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 2 hours ago, mormont said: Well, on that note let me quote: Local elections have a low turnout and should always be taken with a huge pinch of salt, correspondingly. In other news, Rory Stewart has announced he wants to be our next PM! I admit it. I had to read the story to get any idea of who this person was. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48140849 Liz Truss, Amber Rudd, whoever this guy is, Justine Greening... it's quite the field. True enough. Corbyn really turned round what was looking like a landslide defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Which Tyler said: Incredibly, the BBC are spinning these results as proof that the British public just wants Brexit done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 3 hours ago, mormont said: In other news, Rory Stewart has announced he wants to be our next PM! I admit it. I had to read the story to get any idea of who this person was. He's a spook. MI6. Always has been, always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Incredibly, the BBC are spinning these results as proof that the British public just wants Brexit done. They are? Not from where I'm sitting. Phrases like " a pox on both your houses" and "a slap in the face for May and Corbyn" etc are what are coming through my screen mostly. May and the tories (and to a degree Labour) have been saying that; but I've not heard the BBC spinning it that way. Explicitly, May ('s spokesman) has said that the public are NOT protesting May, or her government, or her party; they're protesting parliament for not agreeing with May yet. Vince Cable, and Bartley are saying it's a victory for the revoke/revote positions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, Which Tyler said: They are? Not from where I'm sitting. Phrases like " a pox on both your houses" and "a slap in the face for May and Corbyn" etc are what are coming through my screen mostly. May and the tories have been saying that; but I've not heard the BBC spinning it that way. I was round my Mum's this morning and Radio4 were spouting the usual bollocks. Their line very much appeared to be that Labour and Conservatives lost so badly because they've betrayed democracy over Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 21 minutes ago, Which Tyler said: Phrases like " a pox on both your houses" and "a slap in the face for May and Corbyn" etc are what are coming through my screen mostly. That's not mututally exclusive. Pox on both your houses is also my reading. But then it goes to the why. I think for the Tories the reading of not delivering on Brexit is probably true. For Labour the reading is presumably more difficult, either it's for the exact same reason as for the Tories, or for not being remain (enough). Captain soundbite was at it, when he said Labour is the only party that tries to appeal to both sides of referendum voters. Which is precisely Labour's problem. It is impossible to be remain and leave at the same time. And those mental gymnastics Labour is performing are an insult to the intelligence of (most) voters. Constructive ambiguity my arse. Labour has to decide which voter group it wants to really piss off, remainers or leavers and then face the music accordingly. As any pseudo intellectual I need to include a brainy quote to make that point, so I'll go with Prussian King Frederick II (aka the Great). He who wants to defend everything, defends nothing. Which is Labour's Brexit policy in a nutshell, they try it to be everything, and thus it is indeed a whole lot of nothing. And they are in for a rude awakening at the European Elections, if that nonsense continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Anecdotally, I and several of my friends might have voted labour under different circumstances, but won’t right now because they won’t commit to a position (preferably remain). I think this is probably a common feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 @A Horse Named Stranger Yup, agree with that. I'm just not getting any BBC spin (so far), just reporting of party / MP spin, albeit with implied eye-rolls or basically all variations of the spin. @Stannis Eats No Peaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Spockydog said: Incredibly, the BBC are spinning these results as proof that the British public just wants Brexit done. And somehow an equal disaster for both. From where I'm sitting, it was a mauling for the conservatives and a slap on the wrist for labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Was there any word on turnout? I can't find anything about how high it was. I've heard some say that a protest vote against non delivery of Brexit might just end up with abstaining, as there was no real Brexit alternative vote available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 44 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Was there any word on turnout? I can't find anything about how high it was. I've heard some say that a protest vote against non delivery of Brexit might just end up with abstaining, as there was no real Brexit alternative vote available. No that I've found. Equally, of course, UKIP and conservative were both on the ballot at (I think) every council. Both are very much Brexit parties. The only absent Brexit party is Nigel's new one. But he, CHUK is also absent, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 While I get that the news organisations and political parties are desperately searching for a narrative coming out of these results, I'll repeat: it would be foolish not to treat any such narrative with a high degree of scepticism. These are low-turnout local elections. While they are undoubtedly influenced by Brexit, they're also influenced by lots of other things, many of them local or regional, not national, and nobody can say which mattered more. They're also distorted by low turnout. The meaning of these elections for the parties at UK level is likely to be almost impossible to read accurately without a good deal of research, and is certainly impossible to read accurately now, the day after. Won't stop people trying, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Which Tyler said: Yup, agree with that. I'm just not getting any BBC spin (so far), just reporting of party / MP spin, albeit with implied eye-rolls or basically all variations of the spin. Yes, however if you apply the voters want us to get on with Brexit to both parties, that is indeed spin IMHO. Like I said, I think you can apply that logic to the Tories with their leave voting core, I don't think you can apply it equally to Labour. I mean the implication would be that (would be) Labour voters want their party support Brexit, thus Labour should help May get some deal through parliament, no second referendum, no questions asked (in other words to bail out May, as Barry Gardiner put it). Somehow I don't see that approach going well for Labour, but it would rather instantly split Labour. If Labour bails out May, this entire Brexit mess instantly becomes Labour's. There's nothing May would like better than pass that shit crusted poisoned chalice on to Corbyn. The really sad/worrying thing is, I really would not put past the current Labour frontbench (namely Corbyn and McDonnell) to do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 Talking about spin: UKIP’s Lawrence Webb says the party’s local election performance shows that the party’s fortunes are “on the up.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Bad night for Labour (that swing in North-East Derbyshire was brutal), but terrible night for the Tories. Currently their worst local election losses in 24 years, and the worst losses by anyone since Labour in 1999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Which Tyler said: No that I've found. Equally, of course, UKIP and conservative were both on the ballot at (I think) every council. Both are very much Brexit parties. The only absent Brexit party is Nigel's new one. But he, CHUK is also absent, so... Well UKIP are poison, we can discount them. Tories have basically have a total meltdown and Brexit has ruined them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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