UK Politics: Awaiting MV3

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

Farage not keen on talking about the Russian money that funds his elite, lavish lifestyle.

As much as he wants to ignore the topic, it isn't going away any time soon. Channel 4 News will be a blast tonight.

 

I posted a link to this yesterday... it doesn't seem to mention Aaron Banks being Russian.

[Spockydog]

Just now, Heartofice said:

I posted a link to this yesterday... it doesn't seem to mention Aaron Banks being Russian.

It's no secret where Banks gets his money from. Feel free to keep your head up your arse so you don't have to think about it too hard. 

[mormont]

3 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

They stand for the same thing the Brexit Party does, the only difference is UKIP have stopped bothering to hide their racism and general unpleasantness.

I've no doubt the Brexit Party will get to that stage too, eventually.

It's not that. UKIP still try to hide it. They're just not any good at it. Without a central figure like Farage, the nutters feel free to vocalise their vile views and the media have nothing else to write about so they actually pay attention to it. 

The Brexit Party benefit from the fact that their media coverage is all sucked up by journalists following Farage around. But they're riddled with the same awful people. Bigots, extremists, idiots, and racists of all stripes.

[Heartofice]

17 minutes ago, mormont said:

It's not that. UKIP still try to hide it. They're just not any good at it. Without a central figure like Farage, the nutters feel free to vocalise their vile views and the media have nothing else to write about so they actually pay attention to it. 

The Brexit Party benefit from the fact that their media coverage is all sucked up by journalists following Farage around. But they're riddled with the same awful people. Bigots, extremists, idiots, and racists of all stripes.

There might be some truth in there (although I think its a big statement), but a large number of Brexit candidates have left UKIP because they were appalled by the events and policies of UKIP. 

[Mentat]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

There might be some truth in there (although I think its a big statement), but a large number of Brexit candidates have left UKIP because they were appalled by the events and policies of UKIP.

But not by Nigel Farage?

Meanwhile, Brexit talks between Labour and Conservatives have broken down.

Theresa May might try to hold indicative votes (again) or try to get her deal through the Commons (yet again). Neither option seems to have a high chance of success.

No Deal and No Brexit seem to be the least unlikely options, despite both being extremely problematic.

[Heartofice]

38 minutes ago, Mentat said:

But not by Nigel Farage?

Farage has kicked out a bunch of people with problematic views. 

38 minutes ago, Mentat said:

Meanwhile, Brexit talks between Labour and Conservatives have broken down.

This seems entirely predictable. The can has been kicked down the road again. You couldn't imagine a point where the two might agree given their differences on a second referendum and customs union. While Corbyn described the talks as constructive its hard to see how they could have been. Worse still he mentions that the instability of the government meant that he couldn't rely on them to follow through on anything they said and that there wasn't agreement from the Conservatives on policy at all.

I think it kind of sums it up, everyone is so at odds with each other that there can never be consensus on what to do. A shit show.

 

[Spockydog]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Farage has kicked out a bunch of people with problematic views. 

What about his own problematic views?

[Heartofice]

21 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

What about his own problematic views?

Ok well lay out what you think his problematic views are

[mormont]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

There might be some truth in there (although I think its a big statement), but a large number of Brexit candidates have left UKIP because they were appalled by the events and policies of UKIP. 

Have they? Or did they leave because they were Faragistes first and foremost? Or because it was better for their career?

In any case, this tells me little, because many UKIPers are the sort of people who don't actually realise that they are racists. So when they see undeniable racist behaviour, yes, they are appalled, because they understand that's wrong. But they don't see that their own actions are the same. People who're appalled because UKIP are associating with Tommy Robinson don't realise that they, personally, don't actually substantially differ from his views: they just have more socially acceptable rationalisations for them.  

25 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Farage has kicked out a bunch of people with problematic views. 

Has he? Or has he just said he will do so?

Will he kick out this chap, for example?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48295617

Quote

 

One of the Brexit Party's new AMs has called far-right activist Tommy Robinson a "courageous character".

David Rowlands said the ex-English Defence League (EDL) leader "reflects the views of a great many people".

The comments contrast with those of Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage, who has called Robinson, whose real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, a "thug".

The Brexit Party said Mr Rowlands' was giving a personal view that did not "in any way" reflect the party's position.

 

Looks to me like the answer is 'no'. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Farage not keen on talking about the Russian money that funds his elite, lavish lifestyle.

 

As much as he wants to ignore the topic, it isn't going away any time soon. Channel 4 News will be a blast tonight.

 

It’s almost like there’s a growing segment in the West of people willing to betray their countries for some of that sweet, sweet Russian blood money….

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

It’s almost like there’s a growing segment in the West of people willing to betray their countries for some of that sweet, sweet Russian blood money….

Not growing, they were ever present. Just that this time around they found enough gullible people to support them.

FWIW and at the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (which is only 50% true; I am not that old). I blame the internet, and (anti-)social media for a lot of the most stupid and outrageous shit happening atm. You know, there used to be a time when every village had one idiot. Which really did not cause much of a problem, as they were pretty isolated and could be easily ignored. Now they are conencted globally, enhanced by facebook (and co) and its stupid algorithms, which create this huge echo chambers and suddenly pop those idiots are into the mainstream; and boosted by trolls and morons around the globe you find enough gullible fools to believe them. Be it Anti-Vaxxers or post-truth politics ala Trump or Brexit. [Grumpy rant ends here]

[Werthead]

The fact that Banks is funding Farage is interesting, because Banks has made his money in the insurance sector and he wants the NHS to be privatised, which puts Farage's comments about private insurance in a different light.

It the EU debate has been useful for anything for the last forty years, it's been keeping the hard right of the Conservative Party (and politicians in general) away from the NHS. Once Brexit is done, that will become their top priority and they're already loading their cannons for that fight.

[mormont]

Farage is awful, but Banks may be one of the most graceless, terrible, repellent, meritless human beings around. 

[Werthead]

Just now, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Not growing, they were ever present. Just that this time around they found enough gullible people to support them.

FWIW and at the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (which is only 50% true; I am not that old). I blame the internet, and (anti-)social media for a lot of the most stupid and outrageous shit happening atm. You know, there used to be a time when every village had one idiot. Which really did not cause much of a problem, as they were pretty isolated and could be easily ignored. Now they are conencted globally, enhanced by facebook (and co) and its stupid algorithms, which create this huge echo chambers and suddenly pop those idiots are into the mainstream; and boosted by trolls and morons around the globe you find enough gullible fools to believe them. Be it Anti-Vaxxers or post-truth politics ala Trump or Brexit. [Grumpy rant ends here]

I put it down to the combination of social media and smartphones. Prior to about 2007, there were plenty of morons on the Internet but then numbers were kept in check by access: you needed to buy a computer, buy an Internet connection, physically fire it up, join up on forums etc. It was all a bit laborious for a lot of people.

The global release of Facebook in 2007, paired with the arrival of smartphones shortly afterwards, allowed people to join up with just one (or two, with Twitter) login. People who were bigots or racists or anti-semites or anti-vaxxers or flat Earthers or Holocaust deniers, who never spouted off about such things in real life because they knew they'd be laughed out of the room, then found other like-minded people and came to believe their views were widespread, and that enabled and and emboldened them to take those beliefs in a more mainstream direction. It's all rather depressing and I'm not sure what can be done about it. If people are sharing and saying idiotic stuff that can be disproven by a 5-second Google search and can't even do that, I don't see much hope for making discussion more reasonable.

[Spockydog]

12 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Not growing, they were ever present. Just that this time around they found enough gullible people to support them.

FWIW and at the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (which is only 50% true; I am not that old). I blame the internet, and (anti-)social media for a lot of the most stupid and outrageous shit happening atm. You know, there used to be a time when every village had one idiot. Which really did not cause much of a problem, as they were pretty isolated and could be easily ignored. Now they are conencted globally, enhanced by facebook (and co) and its stupid algorithms, which create this huge echo chambers and suddenly pop those idiots are into the mainstream; and boosted by trolls and morons around the globe you find enough gullible fools to believe them. Be it Anti-Vaxxers or post-truth politics ala Trump or Brexit. [Grumpy rant ends here]

When I was a boy, they locked people up for Holocaust denial.

[Heartofice]

It’s hardly controversial or new to suggest the internet and social media has helped to encourage a lot of people with ridiculous reactionary conspiratorial views who have no interest in facts or reason.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Oh, the irony...

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Oh, the irony...

Oh the double irony!

[Which Tyler]

If you want real irony, listen to Theresa.

Talks have failed because the Labour party is split on Brexit!

Oh, and it's parliament's fault for not agreeing with her when they were told to.

Hell, it's probably the people's fault for not knowing what Brexit means in Theresa's internal monologue.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

2 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

Hell, it's probably the people's fault for not knowing what Brexit means in Theresa's internal monologue.

That one might actually be based somewhat on reality, if that means not understanding all the implications and consequences when they cast their votes.

2 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

Talks have failed because the Labour party is split on Brexit!

Yep, that was comedy gold. She is not entirely wrong on Labour being split, between membership and leadership, however her own party is arguably in worse shape than Labour. But reality is catching up with Labour and their silly constructive ambiguity nonsense.