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Which Tyler

UK Politics: Awaiting MV3

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13 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Just a here to offer a crutch for the undecided

If you need the help to decide which party you allign with most politically and are too busy or lazy to read the manifestos.

Otherwise, you can enforce your party allegiance and just play with it for your entertainment.

Top 3 for me were SNP, Sinn Fein and the Lib Dems.

I tend to think of Change UK as being similar to typical Lib Dem positions, but at least in this test there's a relatively big gap between them.

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22 hours ago, Heartofice said:

The Brexit Vote is also split amongst a number of parties, seeing that both the Tories and Labour should essentially be seen as Brexit parties (if you go by their promises rather than actions) and we can of course ignore UKIP for now.

Should be seen, but are not seen. At least as far as Labour is concerned. According to yougov.

Party%20Brexit%20stance-01.png

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2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Should be seen, but are not seen. At least as far as Labour is concerned. According to yougov.

Party%20Brexit%20stance-01.png

Well exactly, both parties have stood on a promise of delivering on the referendum results, but both seem rather reluctant to do so. 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well exactly, both parties have stood on a promise of delivering on the referendum results, but both seem rather reluctant to do so. 

Which is not related to your original statement.

Your original statement was that Labour and Tories should be regarded as Leave splits. But as yougov showed, that is not the case. A majority of over 40% consider Labour to be a remain party, even the Tories are for some reason considered a remain party by 25% (I can only assume 25% of the sample have been spending the last two years or so in a cave beneath Stoke).

In a normal world, yes, nobody but a tiny minority would consider both major parties as remainers. However, that's not what the figures show. I see what you were trying to do. You wanted to hijack and claim any votes Labour might get as basically leave votes (the same notion that has been propagated after the last GE), which has a very shaky connection (if any) to reality, as a majority still considers Labour to be a remain party (for whatever reason).

The parties which are perceived by majority as Leavers are, UKIP, Brexit, the DUP and the Tories - with the latter that perception is surprisingly split.

Edited by A Horse Named Stranger

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2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Which is not related to your original statement.

Your original statement was that Labour and Tories should be regarded as Leave splits. But as yougov showed, that is not the case. A majority of over 40% consider Labour to be a remain party, even the Tories are for some reason considered a remain party by 25% (I can only assume 25% of the sample have been spending the last two years or so in a cave beneath Stoke).

In a normal world, yes, nobody but a tiny minority would consider both major parties as remainers. However, that's not what the figures show. I see what you were trying to do. You wanted to hijack and claim any votes Labour might get as basically leave votes (the same notion that has been propagated after the last GE), which has a very shaky connection (if any) to reality, as a majority still considers Labour to be a remain party (for whatever reason).

The parties which are perceived by majority as Leavers are, UKIP, Brexit, the DUP and the Tories - with the latter that perception is surprisingly split.

Well I said if you go by their promises not by their actions. My point was that there is confusion as to who represents what. Both labour and conservatives are not seen as either entirely remain or leave parties. The comment I was answering seemed to assume that the Brexit party was the only party representing Brexit, which clearly isn’t true. ( although it’s popularity is due to it advocating the most strongly for Brexit, where others are more half hearted)

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well I said if you go by their promises not by their actions. My point was that there is confusion as to who represents what. Both labour and conservatives are not seen as either entirely remain or leave parties. The comment I was answering seemed to assume that the Brexit party was the only party representing Brexit, which clearly isn’t true. ( although it’s popularity is due to it advocating the most strongly for Brexit, where others are more half hearted)

 

UKIP = Hard no deal Brexit with extra racism and nazi wannabe leadership

Brexit party = hard no deal brexit.

DUP Hard brexit with unicorn boarder.

Torries = mostly hard brexit with maybe a deal

Labour = brexit with a deal, just not any realistic deal. and if we don't get that maybe we will make some noises to a 2nd ref but won't follow though.

 

At least this is my opinion.  but both conservative and labour candidates will try to pick up remain votes especially those with a remain candidate and in remain constituencies (which work rather differently in the EU elections)  Also may campaign on more than one issue.   Labour have been making big noises to say they still kinda support a 2nd ref even if the leadership have no intention of ever allowing one.

Edited by Pebble

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Politics is certainly realigning tonight as the Tories take control of Grimsby and Walsall, while getting a beating in the London Stockbroker Belt.

 

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6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Politics is certainly realigning tonight as the Tories take control of Grimsby and Walsall, while getting a beating in the London Stockbroker Belt.

Well, on that note let me quote:

 

Local elections have a low turnout and should always be taken with a huge pinch of salt, correspondingly.

In other news, Rory Stewart has announced he wants to be our next PM!

I admit it. I had to read the story to get any idea of who this person was.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48140849

Liz Truss, Amber Rudd, whoever this guy is, Justine Greening... it's quite the field.

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2 hours ago, mormont said:

Well, on that note let me quote:

 

Local elections have a low turnout and should always be taken with a huge pinch of salt, correspondingly.

In other news, Rory Stewart has announced he wants to be our next PM!

I admit it. I had to read the story to get any idea of who this person was.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48140849

Liz Truss, Amber Rudd, whoever this guy is, Justine Greening... it's quite the field.

True enough.  Corbyn really turned round what was looking like a landslide defeat.

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1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

 

 

Incredibly, the BBC are spinning these results as proof that the British public just wants Brexit done. 

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3 hours ago, mormont said:

In other news, Rory Stewart has announced he wants to be our next PM!

I admit it. I had to read the story to get any idea of who this person was.

He's a spook. MI6. Always has been, always will be.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Incredibly, the BBC are spinning these results as proof that the British public just wants Brexit done. 

They are? Not from where I'm sitting.

Phrases like " a pox on both your houses" and "a slap in the face for May and Corbyn" etc are what are coming through my screen mostly.

 

 

May and the tories (and to a degree Labour) have been saying that; but I've not heard the BBC spinning it that way.

Explicitly, May ('s spokesman) has said that the public are NOT protesting May, or her government, or her party; they're protesting parliament for not agreeing with May yet.
Vince Cable, and Bartley are saying it's a victory for the revoke/revote positions

Edited by Which Tyler

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6 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

They are? Not from where I'm sitting.

Phrases like " a pox on both your houses" and "a slap in the face for May and Corbyn" etc are what are coming through my screen mostly.

May and the tories have been saying that; but I've not heard the BBC spinning it that way.

I was round my Mum's this morning and Radio4 were spouting the usual bollocks. Their line very much appeared to be that Labour and Conservatives lost so badly because they've betrayed democracy over Brexit.

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21 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Phrases like " a pox on both your houses" and "a slap in the face for May and Corbyn" etc are what are coming through my screen mostly.

That's not mututally exclusive.

Pox on both your houses is also my reading. But then it goes to the why.

I think for the Tories the reading of not delivering on Brexit is probably true.

For Labour the reading is presumably more difficult, either it's for the exact same reason as for the Tories, or for not being remain (enough).

Captain soundbite was at it, when he said Labour is the only party that tries to appeal to both sides of referendum voters. Which is precisely Labour's problem. It is impossible to be remain and leave at the same time. And those mental gymnastics Labour is performing are an insult to the intelligence of (most) voters. Constructive ambiguity my arse. Labour has to decide which voter group it wants to really piss off, remainers or leavers and then face the music accordingly. As any pseudo intellectual I need to include a brainy quote to make that point, so I'll go with Prussian King Frederick II (aka the Great). He who wants to defend everything, defends nothing. Which is Labour's Brexit policy in a nutshell, they try it to be everything, and thus it is indeed a whole lot of nothing. And they are in for a rude awakening at the European Elections, if that nonsense continues.

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Anecdotally, I and several of my friends might have voted labour under different circumstances, but won’t right now because they won’t commit to a position (preferably remain). I think this is probably a common feeling.

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1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

Incredibly, the BBC are spinning these results as proof that the British public just wants Brexit done. 

And somehow an equal disaster for both. From where I'm sitting, it was a mauling for the conservatives and a slap on the wrist for labour. 

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Was there any word on turnout? I can't find anything about how high it was. I've heard some say that a protest vote against non delivery of Brexit might just end up with abstaining, as there was no real Brexit alternative vote available. 

 

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Was there any word on turnout? I can't find anything about how high it was. I've heard some say that a protest vote against non delivery of Brexit might just end up with abstaining, as there was no real Brexit alternative vote available. 

 

No that I've found.

Equally, of course, UKIP and conservative were both on the ballot at (I think) every council. Both are very much Brexit parties.

 

The only absent Brexit party is Nigel's new one. But he, CHUK is also absent, so...

Edited by Which Tyler

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