The Anti-Targ Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 On 5/13/2019 at 12:24 AM, Spockydog said: What an epic twunt. Is health insurance not a thing in the UK? It sounds like Farage wants (or is claiming to want) a robust NHS but also for people to be able to choose health insurance and not use the NHS. So that makes it sound like the UK has only public health or out of pocket private health. There is an argument to be made that having a health insurance market tends to erode the public health service and lead to progressive govts under funding it, because the people who vote normally have enough income to be able to afford have the insurance option, and will therefore tend to vote for lower taxes than increased public health funding, even though a lot of that lowered tax end up as health insurance premiums. A robust public health system does help to keep insurance premiums down. So in theory a well funded public health system can co-exist with a health insurance market. But there does have to be long term commitment to a well funded public health system across all political parties, otherwise funding will erode over time and end up with a broken public health system, which is therefore no check on insurance premiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 13 hours ago, mormont said: Whatever happened to - y'know - how the hell do we get out of this mess? I think we might be further away from getting out of this mess than ever. With Starmer suggesting that Labour will only accept a deal that has a 'confirmatory vote' attached and May roundly poo-pooing that idea, with the Brexit parties success suggesting the country is still just as split as ever. I think we are closer to a no deal or no brexit than anything in between. The can feels like its still being kicked down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 9 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: Is health insurance not a thing in the UK? It sounds like Farage wants (or is claiming to want) a robust NHS but also for people to be able to choose health insurance and not use the NHS. So that makes it sound like the UK has only public health or out of pocket private health. There is an argument to be made that having a health insurance market tends to erode the public health service and lead to progressive govts under funding it, because the people who vote normally have enough income to be able to afford have the insurance option, and will therefore tend to vote for lower taxes than increased public health funding, even though a lot of that lowered tax end up as health insurance premiums. A robust public health system does help to keep insurance premiums down. So in theory a well funded public health system can co-exist with a health insurance market. But there does have to be long term commitment to a well funded public health system across all political parties, otherwise funding will erode over time and end up with a broken public health system, which is therefore no check on insurance premiums. Yeah, no. There are already plenty of private health insurance options for UK consumers. Farage has had a hard-on about privatizing the NHS for years. He wants the American model. Which, I think we can all agree on, is just about the worst option possible for UK residents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 16 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Yeah, no. There are already plenty of private health insurance options for UK consumers. Farage has had a hard-on about privatizing the NHS for years. He wants the American model. Which, I think we can all agree on, is just about the worst option possible for UK residents. Our NHS is built on the premise of No Top up Fees. You can have private health insurance - a lot of types just give money for your hospital stays or illnesses and prescription costs. You can also buy instances that will give you hospital treatments. The big catch is if you are treated for something privately (so you can jump the queue) you can't then get NHS treatment for that exact same condition. Its a feature of its design so we don't create a 2 tier system and everyone gets the same level of care. Farage on the other hand wants a privatised system because its a lot easier to exploit people and make lots of money from a US style system and he is positioned in such a way to take advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, Pebble said: Farage on the other hand wants a privatised system because its a lot easier to exploit people and make lots of money from a US style system and he is positioned in such a way to take advantage. You basically devalued everything you previously said with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Heartofice said: You basically devalued everything you previously said with this. Really? The first part was an explanation of the type of healthcare we do currently have in the UK. The no top up fees is a way protect us from a US style system. where people don't get treated because they have no money or go bankrupt. Farage want the a US style system because he can make money from it, which he can't do from a UK NHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Pebble said: Really? The first part was an explanation of the type of healthcare we do currently have in the UK. The no top up fees is a way protect us from a US style system. where people don't get treated because they have no money or go bankrupt. Farage want the a US style system because he can make money from it, which he can't do from a UK NHS. Yes the first part seemed like a measured critique of the UK healthcare system.. Then.. BOOM, crackpot theory about Farage ruins everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Yes the first part seemed like a measured critique of the UK healthcare system.. Then.. BOOM, crackpot theory about Farage ruins everything. You read Pebble’s first statement as a critique of the system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Just now, HelenaExMachina said: You read Pebble’s first statement as a critique of the system? Whatever it was.. it was at least sensible. After that I simply rolled my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Heartofice said: Whatever it was.. it was at least sensible. After that I simply rolled my eyes. Why? What was “crackpot” or unreasonable about what she said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Just now, HelenaExMachina said: Why? What was “crackpot” or unreasonable about what she said? Is there any evidence that Farages grand scheme is to privatise the NHS in order to make money personally out of it? Has he ever said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 You are doubting that Farage (or quite honestly substitute most major politicians names there) would support a policy for their own personal gain? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Yes the first part seemed like a measured critique of the UK healthcare system.. Then.. BOOM, crackpot theory about Farage ruins everything. Ok whatever. I'm crackpot because Farage really isn't a man of the people and is like a greedy fucker out for himself. and really doesn't care about exploiting people for money. Or I'm crackpot because the US system of healthcare is not in anyway exploitative? Or I'm crackpot because a system that is fair for all and free at the point of use is worse somehow that a system where some have and many go without, while the few at the top get very rich out of it? Or maybe I'm crackpot because I don't like Farage? or Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said: You are doubting that Farage (or quite honestly substitute most major politicians names there) would support a policy for their own personal gain? Really? Yeah because I don't just view people as comic book villains. Discussions like this really devalue the issues at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Just now, Pebble said: Ok whatever. I'm crackpot because Farage really isn't a man of the people and is like a greedy fucker out for himself. and really doesn't care about exploiting people for money. I mean yeah if you can prove any of this and you aren't just saying it because you don't like him and it suits your picture of reality then go ahead. Otherwise it looks rather crackpot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim Fox Cauthon Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 24 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Yeah because I don't just view people as comic book villains. Discussions like this really devalue the issues at hand. I don't think that it's a case of depicting Farage as a "comic book villain" simply by noting the obvious point that he would likely gain financially from such a policy change. 25 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Yeah because I don't just view people as comic book villains. Discussions like this really devalue the issues at hand. Nah, your gaslighting here devalues the issues at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said: I don't think that it's a case of depicting Farage as a "comic book villain" simply by noting the obvious point that he would likely gain financially from such a policy change. Accusing him of wanting to change the healthcare system of the UK for purely personal monetary reasons rather than because he thinks it would work better is a pretty strong allegation and I'd expect it to be backed up somehow. The only reasoning I can see for such an allegation is just because someone doesn't like him so smearing him is a totally ok tactic. That we are even discussing Farage's opinion on the NHS is a bit odd considering this is the EU elections. It seems Marr's 'Gotcha' style of interviewing seems to have worked on some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 54 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Is there any evidence that Farages grand scheme is to privatise the NHS in order to make money personally out of it? Has he ever said that? He wrote a fucking book about it. FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 51 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Yeah because I don't just view people as comic book villains. Discussions like this really devalue the issues at hand. With your nonsense and lies, and outlandish non-sequiturs, you're the one who devalues every discussion you take part in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said: Do you honestly believe that anyone but people looking to make money from it think the US healthcare system works better than ours? People view being hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt because they were silly enough to become ill as a positive do they? Firstly he wasn’t advocating for the US system from what I can see. There is a common assumption that anyone calling for NHS reform is wanting to copy the US system but I’ve not seen anyone asking for it. But yes it’s far more likely he has ideological reasons for his preference rather than wanting a few more quid in his wallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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