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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It really doesn't matter when he told her. Jon trapped her there so she couldn't leave with her armies, the battle was about to start. She could of course fly off on her dragon but he has one now too. He did not expect her first reaction to be about the throne. 

I think Jon manipulated her to get her there. Characters who are resurrected in GoT will always be greyer/darker. 

That would mean an intelligence and depth that ShowJon does not seem to have, and never showed until now, not at least after his "resurrection", as others have said.  In his Night Watch days he was different, he managed to live  undercover between the freefolk, that needs a duplicity that new Jon does not have. Anyway, it that were the case, I do not think that this would make him darker, because his goals are still the greater good, even if others do not realize it. It would only make him more intelligent, less naive, and with more understanding of the human nature of those around him. It would make him a better leader than he already is, actually.
I would love it to be like that, but I do not think so. 
I'm more ready to believe that it's Tyrion who is manipulating them all, as I've read in a theory elsewhere, it would be more consistent with his character. This new stupid Tyrion has no sense at all (lost of allies because of stupid strategy, wight hunt, believing Cercei!), if it's only bad writting, what a way to ruin a character

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35 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon went to the south with the objective of getting dragonglass. He ended up with dragonglass, her armies and dragonass. He definitely manipulated her. He knew the northern lords were a holes so he gave her that responsibility too. :P

yeah he did. 

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19 hours ago, darmody said:

Show Jon is definitely dumb and he fails upward at everything. But he wasn't always so flat. That came after his fake death, in my opinion. When he was most interesting, he was the bastard looking to prove himself in love with the enemy trying to do his duty and looking up to the man he has to go on a suicide mission to take out. 

I agree to an extent. He went from a man who succeeded at most everything he did to a man struggling. But what did he colossally fail at besides the BotB?

4 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon went to the south with the objective of getting dragonglass. He ended up with dragonglass, her armies and dragonass. He definitely manipulated her. He knew the northern lords were a holes so he gave her that responsibility too. :P

No, I don't think he manipulated her. He won her over.

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5 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

This new stupid Tyrion has no sense at all (lost of allies because of stupid strategy, wight hunt, believing Cercei!), if it's only bad writting, what a way to ruin a character

Don't get me started...

Post Season 5-Tyrion might very well be the stupidest man in the show.
While Jon and Daenerys both accepted and went trough with his wight-hunt idea (on false premises), consider what that idea caused:
- The death of Thoros.
- The death and undeath of Viserion.
- The wall coming down, with everything and every death that entails. (Technically he will indirectly have the blood of thousands, including some very beloved characters on his hands.)

Why? So he could suddenly appease and save a sister he's previously been hating and distrusting for the majority of the show...
I mean seriously, can you see S2-S4 Tyrion do the things that S7 Tyrion does for Cersei? I can't.

By the end of S7, we could've had a dethroned Cersei and a AotD still banished to the north of the wall for god knows how long.

Seriously, Tyrion has some major redeeming to do in the last couple episodes, otherwise he will go down in memory as the dwarf who's stupidity fucked up Westeros. Luckily it seems (fingers crossed!) that Tyrion is about to get some of his mojo back now. 
 

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26 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

While Jon and Daenerys both accepted and went trough with his wight-hunt idea (on false premises), consider what that idea caused:
- The death of Thoros.
- The death and undeath of Viserion.
- The wall coming down, with everything and every death that entails. (Technically he will indirectly have the blood of thousands, including some very beloved characters on his hands.)

I don't think it's fair to lay all of this at Tyrion's feet. It may have been his idea, but Jon and Dany agreed. (Jon is quite the idealist, after all.) And really, when faced with such a threat the magnitude of the AotD, don't you think their attitude is 1) surely no one could refuse, not even Cersei, not once seeing it for their own eyes and 2) no matter the odds, they have to at least try.

Plus, we're watching this with full knowledge of just how maniacal Cersei is. But in real life, a rational person would have great difficulty in understanding that level of lunacy. So, is it really so difficult to believe that Tyrion thought there was some hope that Cersei has enough rationality to see the urgency and scope of the threat they're facing and the sense in helping them to fight it? Especially after he sees her protectively placing her hands over her womb. Remember when he said that the one thing he could say for Cersei was that she loves her children?

38 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Why? So he could suddenly appease and save a sister he's previously been hating and distrusting for the majority of the show...
I mean seriously, can you see S2-S4 Tyrion do the things that S7 Tyrion does for Cersei? I can't.

Tyrion was off in Essos and hadn't seen Cersei for what, about 3 years? He hasn't witnessed her descent into madness.

Here's hoping he does get his mojo back because I was very disappointed in my favorite character last season.And I hope he lives to the end too. I'll be heart broken he if he dies, dumb or clever!

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Tyrion was off in Essos and hadn't seen Cersei for what, about 3 years? He hasn't witnessed her descent into madness.

Closer to 2 years (2 seasons, S5-S6), but it's not like he didn't know what kind of monster she was when he left/fled at the end of S4.
Honestly the whole wight-hunt idea was stupid from start to finish, regardless of Cersei's reaction to it.

In addition, his comment about how "Cersei will join us, she has something to live for now" is just icing on the cake.
I'm glad actual characters in universe (Daenerys and especially Sansa) are calling him out on his stupidity.

Again, hopefully it will lead to some sort of redemption (it does feel that way now, thanks Jorah), so Tyrion get's remembered for his cleverness and not for being an idiot. I genuinely liked him in the first 4-5 seasons, if not my favorite character then def. top 3, so seeing him this way hurts extra much.

Edited by MinscS2

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6 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Closer to 2 years (2 seasons, S5-S6), but it's not like he didn't know what kind of monster she was when he left/fled at the end of S4.

True, but I think she had gotten worse since he left KL in season 4.

7 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Honestly the whole wight-hunt idea was stupid from start to finish, regardless of Cersei's reaction to it.

Well, the odds of any of them returning were stacked against them, so from that perspective, yes, it was stupid. But from the perspective of how do you get others to believe, not so much.

What I thought was stupid was Gendry running all the way from wherever they were back to CB and presumably not encountering any WW. I thought he was toast for sure.

8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

In addition, his comment about how "Cersei will join us, she has something to live for now" is just icing on the cake.

That's why I wonder if sub-consciously he WANTED to believe her.

9 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Again, hopefully it will lead to some sort of redemption (it does feel that way now),

Yes, it does. With Jorah telling Dany to forgive him, and telling him he had to stay in the crypts where it's safe cuz she needs him, it feels like he's gonna snap out of moron mode. Maybe he needs to go back to being drunk all the time? ;)

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1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

I agree to an extent. He went from a man who succeeded at most everything he did to a man struggling. But what did he colossally fail at besides the BotB?

Well, he got himself killed for one.

He led the silly mission that gave the Night King a dragon, which brought down the Wall. 

It hasn't cost him for some reason, but he risked a lot by resigning the Night's Watch.

There is nothing else so major, but a lot of little stupid things that didn't stop him from being a hero when the dust settled. 

 

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3 minutes ago, darmody said:

Well, he got himself killed for one.

Oh, well I wasn't counting that cuz I was talking about after he died and came back.

Baeric said that every time he comes back, he's somehow a little "less". Maybe with Jon, that less is his critical thinking and decision making abilities.

4 minutes ago, darmody said:

It hasn't cost him for some reason, but he risked a lot by resigning the Night's Watch.

Well, yeah, when you figure he wasn't going around telling everyone why he resigned, he technically was a traitor and should have been executed. I even questioned that at the time, but I'd forgotten.

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4 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

 

Well, yeah, when you figure he wasn't going around telling everyone why he resigned, he technically was a traitor and should have been executed. I even questioned that at the time, but I'd forgotten.

Weird thing: the one person I remember calling Jon out for breaking his vows was Ramsay. 

I've been wondering how many people know Jon came back from the dead. Does all the North know? If not, why did they acclaim him king? They addressed his bastardy, but not the fact that he was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch two seconds ago, but now mysteriously is his own man. 

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Posted (edited)

I think one of the reasons (other than "I died, my watch has ended") why Jon "got away" when leaving the NW was because...well, who was gonna enforce it?

The current Warden of the North(Ramsay)? Already wanted him dead, but was in no position to enforce it then and there.
The new Lord Commander? Edd was one of his best mates so doubt he would do it.
Anyone else at Castle Black? The Jon-faction had just cleared out the Thorne-faction, so very unlikely. 

The real question is why the rest of the northern lords didn't care, a question we'll never get the answer to. 
 

Edited by MinscS2

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3 minutes ago, darmody said:

Weird thing: the one person I remember calling Jon out for breaking his vows was Ramsay. 

I don't remember that, when was it? During their tete-a-tete the day prior to the BotB?

5 minutes ago, darmody said:

I've been wondering how many people know Jon came back from the dead. Does all the North know? If not, why did they acclaim him king? They addressed his bastardy, but not the fact that he was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch two seconds ago, but now mysteriously is his own man. 

 

10 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

The real question is why the rest of the northern lords don't care. 

 I've wondered. I don't think even Sansa knows, although Arya knows about the knife to the heart. For some reason I thought executing NW deserters was strictly the responsibility of the Warden of the North, and that has always been the Starks. Am I wrong? LONG time since I read the books. Still, even if that was correct, you wouldn't think it would sit well with the other Northern lords.

GRRM darn well better finish these books cuz I want to see how he deals with some of this stuff (where the books and show remain the same).

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16 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I don't remember that, when was it? During their tete-a-tete the day prior to the BotB?

Yes. Ramsay said at their parley that if Jon would lay down his arms and recognize Ramsay as Warden of the North, he would pardon Jon for desertion. 

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Just remember, if Jon hadn't got south to meet with Daenerys, the chain of events that brought the Wall down would never have happened.

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14 minutes ago, longest night said:

Just remember, if Jon hadn't got south to meet with Daenerys, the chain of events that brought the Wall down would never have happened.

Not necessarily true. He could have gone to Dragonstone but not gone on the wight hunt. The wall didn't have to come down; it just would have taken the AotD longer because they would have to go all the way around the wall like Osha did, but they would have gotten south of it all the same and the armies amassed at Winterfell would not have obsidian weapons.

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3 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Not necessarily true. He could have gone to Dragonstone but not gone on the wight hunt. The wall didn't have to come down; it just would have taken the AotD longer because they would have to go all the way around the wall like Osha did, but they would have gotten south of it all the same and the armies amassed at Winterfell would not have obsidian weapons.

They totally spent all that time constructing a Wall that they can go around.

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16 minutes ago, longest night said:

They totally spent all that time constructing a Wall that they can go around.

It would require ships, and I don't know where they would get them (the Free Folk obviously didn't have many), but yes. That's why the other two towers that are manned are the eastern-most and western-most towers. Perhaps going over water is easier for them than through the mountains since they were headed for Eastwatch by the Sea.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

It would require ships, and I don't know where they would get them (the Free Folk obviously didn't have many), but yes. That's why the other two towers that are manned are the eastern-most and western-most towers. Perhaps going over water is easier for them than through the mountains since they were headed for Eastwatch by the Sea.

That's not why the two castles are manned. They are manned because they only have enough for three and they distributed them at the two outer most points and the center point. They are defending against wildlings.

It's a magical wall. They aren't going to construct something to stop the evil enemy that wants to destroy them and not account for that they can just go around.

Edited by longest night

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1 minute ago, longest night said:

That's not why the two castles are manned. They are manned because they only have enough for three and they distributed them at the two outer most points and the center point. They are defending against wildlings.

Yes, I get that, but say the Wildlings want to make a mass invasion of Westeros. They couldn't all climb over it. They would have to pass through the mountains on the west or the sail around the other end on the east. Same thing with the WW. They can't pass through it over because of the magic imbued in it, but that magic doesn't extend into the sea or the mountains. If there was NO danger of WW getting around the wall, why does the NW keep a look out for them? Three blasts of the horn for WW, remember?

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