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Lady Winter Rose

Is Syrio confirmed dead?

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Why is Syrio important in the story?  My thought is that Eddard loved his rebellious daughter, Arya, and is trying to keep her busy. Eddard had found the sword gifted to Arya and forged by Mikken.

Syrio was in the story to teach nine year old Arya how to think/evaluate.

One of the best pieces of prose martin wrote. It reminds me to pay attention to what is happening around me.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya IV    Arya thought about it.

"You saw what was there."

 "Just so.

Opening your eyes is all that is needing.

The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true.

Look with your eyes.

Hear with your ears.

Taste with your mouth.

Smell with your nose.

Feel with your skin.

Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."/


Syrio died. He gave his life so that Arya could escape.

Sure, Syrio's stick had a metal rod in it. Trent's sword on the other hand would make chopped liver of Syrio after Syrio is physically tired due to his fencing and swash buckling techniques.

@Ser Leftwich supplied a link and a quote. Martin said, "draw you own conclusions." Piss poor answer.

On 4/25/2019 at 3:19 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

"Then people asked questions. Someone asked if Syrio was dead. And he said to "draw your own conclusions" based on the fact that his sword was broken, etc, which I took to mean yes."

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1372

Sumbody remind me, when was martin's first ASOIAF book Game of Thrones was published --- was it 1996?

 

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On 4/25/2019 at 7:38 PM, Petyr Lannister said:

Don't expect Martin to direct confirm much about the series. Actually I wouldn't even expect him to keep his word about things he already said. But anyway...

Syrio is quite certain dead. If I remember right he fought Merryn Trant (a decent fighter) and 3 (or was it 5?) Lannister guards using a wooden sword. Even as he was able to defeat the guards is not confirmed that he killed them, so they possibly regained ther feet sometime and ganged up on him with more caution. When he attacked Merryn, his wooden sword broke leaving him unable to attack and to parry.

Considering Merryn history of cruelty, the possibility that the Lannister guards woke up and ganged on him AND that is certain that Merryn survived the encounter is very unlikely that Syrio is still alive.

Quote

Don't expect Martin to direct confirm much about the series. Actually I wouldn't even expect him to keep his word about things he already said. But anyway...

Effective strategy when you think about it.  Vague gets the mind of the fans running fast and they entertain themselves with internet talk.  Questions bring people to fan sites and that in turn build revenue.  George created his own economy and its GDP is in the millions.  He doesn't want to reveal his hand because it could decrease future sales of the books.  It's smart to keep us in suspense.

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On 5/7/2019 at 12:40 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I prefer a version of the story where he is dead. It's more meaningful, that way. His death is a great one. Consider how Tywin or Ned or anyone else for that matter, died. It's mostly just a bit shit. But Syrio died as he lived. A bad ass with bigger balls than the Titan himself. 

I agree. 

 

On 5/7/2019 at 1:21 PM, Lady Anna said:

Agreed. Actually this issue is a perfect example for the other thread on the series complexity, and the forced over-complexity some fans make up.

It is an excellent example. 

 

 

The easiest answer to this question is... No, Syrio is not confirmed dead.  He didn't die on page so he can't be confirmed dead.  But the circumstances surrounding his last appearance in the books implies that he is very likely dead.  

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Syrio‘s background is a bit too prominent for a random redshirt character. How did a former First Sword of Braavos end up as a fencing instructor in King‘s Landing? There is a story yet to be told. So, we’ll hear of him again.

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19 hours ago, Aebram said:

Sorry, that's a new one to me. What's the evidence for that?

The one who killed Balon. Ghost of High Heart's dreams, plus it matches the mo. It couldn't have been Jaqen/the alchemist because he couldn't have gone anywhere to get on a ship to take him that close to Pyke. 

 

18 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Counterpoint: Of course he hit at unarmored parts, otherwise he would have done nothing to phase them. Broken noses and bruised necks was probably the worst of it. Would he be any good at all with a Westerosi longsword? No he would not.

Counterpoint: Why would they put Syrio's head on a spike? He is nobody.

Syrio is dead. Not everything is a magical conspiracy, sometimes it is just a noble death.

There's a difference between being a master with one sword, and being totally useless with the other. So long as he keeps moving and swings the thing like he was the practice sword, eventually he'd find Trant's weak point. He also isn't trained to use a helm as a shield but he does, and there are daggers lying about as well. 

Why would Joffrey put his head on a spike? He put Ned's entire household on spikes, including a septa. Why wouldn't he put Syrio's head on a spike? I'm not even saying it has to be a magical conspiracy, There are plenty of non-magical possibilities for how one of the best martial artists in the known world survived combat with a mediocre knight. 

Also here's the last part of the fight with the five guardsmen 

Quote

Five men were down, dead, or dying by the time Arya reached the back door that opened on the kitchen. She heard Ser Meryn Trant curse. "Bloody oafs," he swore, drawing his longsword from its scabbard.

 

 

14 hours ago, Petyr Lannister said:

Besides he fulfilled his narrative purpose: Introducing Arya to the bravosi culture and religion. This role was picked up by Jaquen H'ghar later on. 

Killing off a character just because they've filled their narrative purpose is bad writing, again I'm not saying that my points prove Syrio is alive, but there also is not proof that he is dead. That's the whole point, GRRM is taunting us. 

 

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

I expect that the swords of the fallen guardsmen are either still being held by them,, or are  underneath their bodies.  In other words, inaccessible.  Given that Trent is in full armor, well armed, and probably better than competent with a sword; and Syrio has only a (broken) stick, it is a serious mismatch.  Given Trent's ego, and how he has just been humiliated, I doubt he is in the mood for mercy.  I think Syrio is toast.

I am open to the idea that Syrio and Jaqen were acquainted.  Both are expats from the Free Cities, so could easily visit the same places and move in the same social circle.s  That would be a perfectly logical way for Jaqen to know about Arya, as I expect that Syrio was quite happy to get the gig with Ned Stark.

I find the suggestion that Jaqen is in the Black Cells deliberately, or is really Syrio, to be ridiculous.  I can see no reason for him doing so.

At least the sword of the first guardsman is open on the ground from when Syrio broke his fingers. There's one buried in a third's head and there's nothing in the text that really makes it clear where swords 2,4-5 are. Some could be under bodies, but that's not really a natural place for them to have gone. There's steel in the open somewhere, and if three decades of school shootings in America have taught  me anything, Syrio had an exit plan for this exact situation.

When you say Jaqen do you mean Jaqen, or the Faceless Man who used Jaqen's face? I don't typically think that Jaqen and Syrio are the same. Though I do understand why someone might think "Syrio gets tossed in a black cell, changes his face into Jaqen, which scares the shit out of Rorge and Biter, and then continues from there to wherever his final goal is." I don't necessarily believe it. 

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Way too much coincidence here. 

If I had to guess, I'd think Ned got the recommendation of Syrio from LF as that seems to be the character he was dealing with most. LF has ties to Braavos and he ingratiates himself by being helpful and a go-to guy. 

ACOK Tyrion IV

No one had ever thought to question the appointments, and why should they? Littlefinger was no threat to anyone. A clever, smiling, genial man, everyone's friend, always able to find whatever gold the king or his Hand required, and yet of such undistinguished birth, one step up from a hedge knight, he was not a man to fear. He had no banners to call, no army of retainers, no great stronghold, no holdings to speak of, no prospects of a great marriage. 
 

Syrio is Braavosi and he gave Arya FM 101 training. Syrio disappears. 

Suddenly you have Jaqen, a FM who is very, very interested in Arya for some reason. He continues to show Arya a stunning amount of attention that he doesn't show anyone else. It all falls in line with FM training that Syrio started. 

Jaqen gives Arya who has no where good to go free passage to Braavos. 

The HoB&W take Arya in and they certainly aren't in the business of taking in homeless orphans just because they're nice. Arya gets a prominent spot working for a big kahuna. 

LF never asks Sansa once about Arya's possible whereabouts. We know he took Jeyne Poole when he got the chance. We know LF didn't find Arya's body. Perhaps LF already knows where Arya is. 

 

Arya was recruited. Probably because she was a Stark skinchanger whose family is linked to winter and opposed to fire/dragons. Syrio may be Jaqen, but if not, he was part of a larger conspiracy. 

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In the glossary for the enhanced editions on iBooks the entry for Syrio ends with “His fate is unknown”. I assume Martin didn’t write the glossary entries for those releases, and it’s a literal determination based on the fact that we didn’t see him die and not necessary alluding to the fact that he might be returning. For all intents and purposes I believe he’s dead. Not everything has to be confirmed, it’s good to leave some things to the inference of the reader.

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4 minutes ago, Seams said:

Now it begins.

Humor and self enlightenment seems appropriate at this moment.

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Way too much coincidence here. 

Or martin was being cute. I mean Tobho Mott had those doors of black and white.

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Deleted a bunch of posts for general lack of civility. Bans will follow if made necessary, so please, play nice.

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Way too much coincidence here. 

If I had to guess, I'd think Ned got the recommendation of Syrio from LF as that seems to be the character he was dealing with most. LF has ties to Braavos and he ingratiates himself by being helpful and a go-to guy. 

ACOK Tyrion IV

No one had ever thought to question the appointments, and why should they? Littlefinger was no threat to anyone. A clever, smiling, genial man, everyone's friend, always able to find whatever gold the king or his Hand required, and yet of such undistinguished birth, one step up from a hedge knight, he was not a man to fear. He had no banners to call, no army of retainers, no great stronghold, no holdings to speak of, no prospects of a great marriage. 
 

Syrio is Braavosi and he gave Arya FM 101 training. Syrio disappears. 

Suddenly you have Jaqen, a FM who is very, very interested in Arya for some reason. He continues to show Arya a stunning amount of attention that he doesn't show anyone else. It all falls in line with FM training that Syrio started. 

Jaqen gives Arya who has no where good to go free passage to Braavos. 

The HoB&W take Arya in and they certainly aren't in the business of taking in homeless orphans just because they're nice. Arya gets a prominent spot working for a big kahuna. 

LF never asks Sansa once about Arya's possible whereabouts. We know he took Jeyne Poole when he got the chance. We know LF didn't find Arya's body. Perhaps LF already knows where Arya is. 

 

Arya was recruited. Probably because she was a Stark skinchanger whose family is linked to winter and opposed to fire/dragons. Syrio may be Jaqen, but if not, he was part of a larger conspiracy. 

And down the rabbit hole we go.

Jaqen was chained up in a wagon and had been for weeks when Arya joined the NW caravan.  She was literlly the last person to join, and her arrival was a surprise to everyone, including herself and Yoren.  So there is no way that Jaqen was there for her.  On anybody else.  Being chained in a wagon is a bad position to be in if you are hoping to accomplish something.

At the time jaqen gave her the coin, her brother was still winning, so reuniting with her family at Riverrun was the most likely outcome

However, if it turned out that she was without options, a scion of a great house would be a very useful asset for the FM.  She would be in an excellent position to provide intel, shelter, and other assistance.  Her training seems to be in this direction.  It is that of a spy or investigator, not an assassin.

LF hasn't asked about Arya because he has no reason to think Sansa knows anything, and he assumes that she is dead (hence the FArya plot).

Syrio is Syrio.  His advice to her is useful in life generally, and I see no connection to FM ideas,, unless they are also connected to Braavos generally.

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4 minutes ago, Gravity Grave said:

In the glossary for the enhanced editions on iBooks the entry for Syrio ends with “His fate is unknown”.

Ohhhhhh, my goodness, technology.

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Ohhhhhh, my goodness, technology.

That glossary was a God send. I’ve not read the physical books, or any other edition other than those enhanced editions, but just being able to click on a character name or a house name whilst reading a paragraph to get a quick refresher on who they are and why they’re significant just helped me keep track of who’s who and how they relate to the story at that time. There’s some houses or characters that might be referenced in AGOT and then not referenced again for another two books, so it was massively helpful for those particular references, just being able to quickly jog my memory with the tap of a word!

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If I had to guess, I'd think Ned got the recommendation of Syrio from LF as that seems to be the character he was dealing with most. LF has ties to Braavos and he ingratiates himself by being helpful and a go-to guy. 

Very interesting.

If the suspicion is correct that Littlefinger has ties to chief undergaoler Rennifer Longwaters (through the patronage job awarded by the Master of Coin, if not a blood tie), that could also explain a Syrio / Jaqen connection. Rennifer would hide Syrio in the dungeon if he was able to slip away from Meryn Trant long enough for Trant to lose sight of him.

When Robert and the small council discuss hiring a Faceless Man to kill Daenerys,  Littlefinger gets uncharacteristically concerned that the cost of an assassin would be too high: he seems to be familiar with their fee structure and, perhaps, also concerned about diverting this assassination plot.

I find that Arya's experiences in Braavos often allude to things going on in Westeros, even before the theatrical interlude in the released TWoW chapter. The Purple Harbor seems to be a place where Targaryen and royal symbolism is strong. I believe that the Sealord lives on the edge of the Purple Harbor and we know that the First Sword of Braavos has the job of guarding the Sealord and commanding the other guards.

I went back today to look at some of the other details around the Sealord and was interested to find that a thunderbolt adorns the palace, similar to the purple lightning bolt on the Dondarrion sigil. I also found that Tom o' Sevens does a lot of interacting with Arya during her interlude with the Brotherhood without Banners, explaining things, promising her protection. Your point about Syrio and Jaqen both taking care of Arya, in their own ways, might be a sign that Arya is a symbolic Sealord in this circle of characters. (Edit: Alternatively, Ser Beric could be the Sealord - the term "Sealord" anagrams to "reloads," which is what Ser Beric does fairly often. Arya does observe Tom o' Sevens confer with Ser Beric from time to time. I also like Ser Beric's frequent resurrections as an analog to the way that Faceless Men are reborn with new faces. The pleasure barge belonging to the Sealord of Braavos is covered with smiling faces - that has to be a Faceless Men allusion.) Not only do these men protect Arya, they also send her to the literal purple harbor, where the Sealord lives.

I would not be surprised if there is a Syrio --> Jaqen connection, and I'm feeling more and more persuaded that there might also be a Jaqen --> Tom of Sevenstreams connection. The care for Arya continues, even after Jaqen "disappears" from her arc.

Another edit. (Definitely skip the rest of this post if you are not interested in wordplay.)

Because of @Lollygag's idea about Littlefinger recommending Syrio as a fencing instructor for Arya, I wanted to look closely at the ship The Titan's Daughter, that carries Arya to Braavos. The name of the ship always struck me as a better fit for Sansa, who pretends to be Littlefinger's daughter. We know that one of the sigils associated with House Baelish is the head of the Titan of Braavos. But a possible connection between Syrio and Littlefinger, with Syrio (or a series of characters associated with Syrio) tasked with protecting Arya would help to explain that name for a ship carrying Arya to relative safety in Braavos.

Who is the captain of that ship? A man named Ternesio Terys. As the wiki puts it, " Many of the crew, including Captain Ternesio Terys and his son Yorko, ask her the favor of remembering their names." (AFfC, Chap. 6, Arya I)

Ternesio Terys = Syrio reset ten

If Ternesio is the tenth version of Arya's protector, who are the others? Do they all have to be subsequent to Syrio? Can they coexist with other Syrio "resets"?

  • Yoren
  • Jaqen.
  • Tom o' Sevens

If we start before the man we know as Syrio enters the story, then Jory Cassel might qualify. Maybe also Mycah, who fights with a wooden sword?

Between Yoren and Harrenhal, Lommy Greenhands, Hot Pie, Weese, friggin Roose Bolton? I can't believe anyone listed in Arya's prayer would be a version of Syrio, so that would rule out Weese. And the others here don't seem to fit that protective role that seems to define the First Sword of Braavos and to characterize the relationship of Syrio with Arya.

If that anagram is correct and there have to be nine "Syrios" before Arya boards the ship for Braavos, then there must be several Syrios within the Brotherhood without Banners. That's the only way I could hope to reach ten by the beginning of AFfC.

Oh, you know what? I bet Septa Mordane counts as a "Syrio" in Arya's life. Because of the needlework. Well I'll be darned. That probably means that Lady Ravella Smallwood also fits the category. She discusses the importance of needlework with Arya.

The Many Faced God was apparently with Arya for quite some time before she reached Braavos.

One of the hints that helped me to connect Tom o' Sevens with Syrio is this possible anagram:

The First Sword of Braavos = doffs hat rows riverboats

Using the Search of Ice and Fire website, I took the hint from that anagram possibility and looked for characters who doff their hats. Tom of Sevenstreams and Tycho Nestoris were the only two characters who doff their hats in the books. Not enough in and of itself, but a closer look at Tom o' Sevens provided other clues that he took a protective and nurturing role toward Arya, even if she doesn't see it. (I need to see more of Tycho, I think, before determining whether his hat doffing links him to the Faceless Men or Syrio, but his association with the Bank of Braavos is a promising possibility.)

Also interesting is that Tom of Sevenstreams eventually appears in a scene with Jaime Lannister where they are rowing in a riverboat. The first sword anagram could also be "rivers rowboats". Ternesio Terys's ship, The Titan's Daughter, is propelled with oars. When Arya disembarks, Yorko Terys rows her to shore -- past the aqueduct carrying the Sweetwater River -- on a rowboat.

Edited by Seams

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Sad, I am.  Censorship of not one but three.

Feel proud.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Seams said:

When Robert and the small council discuss hiring a Faceless Man to kill Daenerys,  Littlefinger gets uncharacteristically concerned that the cost of an assassin would be too high: he seems to be familiar with their fee structure and, perhaps, also concerned about diverting this assassination plot.

Given that he is master of coin, it is hardly surprising that he is worried about the cost of an assassination.   He is, after all, the one who is going to have to come up with the money.  Given his sleazy nature, I find it not the least bit surprising that he has some knowledge of how the FM operates.  Although it appears that he hasn't hired them, having been put off by the cost.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I went back today to look at some of the other details around the Sealord and was interested to find that a thunderbolt adorns the palace, similar to the purple lightning bolt on the Dondarrion sigil. I also found that Tom o' Sevens does a lot of interacting with Arya during her interlude with the Brotherhood without Banners, explaining things, promising her protection. Your point about Syrio and Jaqen both taking care of Arya, in their own ways, might be a sign that Arya is a symbolic Sealord in this circle of characters. (Edit: Alternatively, Ser Beric could be the Sealord - the term "Sealord" anagrams to "reloads," which is what Ser Beric does fairly often. Arya does observe Tom o' Sevens confer with Ser Beric from time to time.) Not only do these men protect her, they also send her to the literal purple harbor, where the Sealord lives.

While they were obviously interested in keeping her safe, their primary interest was in the ransom (or reward, if you prefer) that they would get for returning her to her family.  I didn't see any real interest beyond that, other than their general interest in keeping civilians, and especially children, safe.

Beric and Tom, and the BwB in general, had nothing to do with her going to Braavos.  That was a result of Sandor kidnapping her from the BwB in the first place, and his subsequent (apparent) death, combined with the coin Jaqen gave her.  Beric and Tom would have had no interest in her going to Braavos, and have no idea that she is there.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I would not be surprised if there is a Syrio --> Jaqen connection, and I'm feeling more and more persuaded that there might also be a Jaqen --> Tom of Sevenstreams connection. The care for Arya continues, even after Jaqen "disappears" from her arc.

As I stated above, I am inclined to believe that Jaqen and Syrio could be connected through their both being expats from the Free Cities.  I can see no reason for a connection between Jaqen and Tom.  Given that Arya is a 10-year-old girl on her own, caring for her is going to be natural for someone of good heart, which Tom and Beric clearly are.  

Edited by Nevets

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It is useful to remember that Syrio and Jaqen are not important characters in their own right.  They are important to the story because of the impact their actions and words have on the main characters, primarily Arya in this case.  I see no more useful role for Syrio in this aspect, so am inclined that he is dead.  

As for Jaqen, his actions at the Citadel are likely to affect Sam in particular.  If, as I suspect, he is searching for dragonlore, it might also have an effect on Daenerys.  While Arya is currently with the FM, I think that Jaqen's role in that story has already been played.  Although I would not be entirely surprised if he made a re-appearance in her story.

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14 hours ago, Nevets said:

At the time jaqen gave her the coin, her brother was still winning, so reuniting with her family at Riverrun was the most likely outcome

No, it wasn't. Most likely it was at Harrenhal, when Roose and Tywin planned Red Wedding. And Jaqen knew about what will happen later, that Robb and Cat are doomed. Either he was eavesdropping, or he went thru their correspondence (Roose's and Tywin's).

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Syrio is a representation of something positive in Arya's life.  He is to Arya Stark what Ser Willem Darry was to Daenerys Targaryen.  The role might have served the same purpose for Viserys but the loss of his kingdom and status was too much for the young prince.  

The positive influence is replaced by the tragic death of Ned and then followed by exposure to Sandor, Jaqen, and a bunch of awful folks.  Syrio is the lost hope.  He is what could have been for Arya.  What she got instead is a crazy cult.  Syrio was put in a nearly impossible situation.  I don't think he came out on the winning side of that fight.  

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8 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, it wasn't. Most likely it was at Harrenhal, when Roose and Tywin planned Red Wedding. And Jaqen knew about what will happen later, that Robb and Cat are doomed. Either he was eavesdropping, or he went thru their correspondence (Roose's and Tywin's).

Roose and Tywin were never together, at least not at Harrenhal.  Jaqen gave Arya the coin and left immediately after Roose's takeover of Harrenhal.  At that time, Robb's marriage hadn't yet occurred, and I don't think news of Winterfell had arrived either (Arya doesn't hear about it until well after).  Whatever anti-Robb plans there were were likely in their infancy, if they existed at all.  So reuniting with her family and/or becoming a Lannister prisoner were the most likely outcomes.  Neither of which gets her to Braavos.

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Posted (edited)

Thread title: Is Syrio confirmed dead.

No, seams that martin made a remark, "draw your own conclusions", supplied by a link earlier in this thread. The below quote is what Arya saw and experienced.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Arya IV

Look with your eyes, he had said.

She saw: the knight in his pale armor head to foot, legs, throat, and hands sheathed in metal, eyes hidden behind his high white helm, and in his hand cruel steel.

Against that: Syrio, in a leather vest, with a wooden sword in his hand. "Syrio, run," she screamed.

"The first sword of Braavos does not run," he sang as Ser Meryn slashed at him.

Syrio danced away from his cut, his stick a blur. In a heartbeat, he had bounced blows off the knight's temple, elbow, and throat, the wood ringing against the metal of helm, gauntlet, and gorget.

Arya stood frozen. Ser Meryn advanced; Syrio backed away.

He checked the next blow, spun away from the second, deflected the third.

The fourth sliced his stick in two, splintering the wood and shearing through the lead core.

Sobbing, Arya spun and ran.

 

 

 

Edit: For some odd reason the above reminds me of Oberyn battling the Mountain.

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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