Coins, Daggers, and re-reads.

[Varysblackfyre321]

I  am getting into my third re-read of the “Dagger and coin” Series by Daniel Abraham. So far I’m liking it. You know every time I read Geder’s begining POV chapters in the Dragon path I can’t help but think of Sam from ASOIAF. Bullied for his less than “manly”  interests, not in the best shape, and concerned about shaming his father(though in the case of Geder it’s clearly love generating his worries while Sam simply  fears Randyl), and someone who loves to read particularly about history.

[IlyaP]

Dagger and Coin! Dagger and Coin! 

Daniel Abraham! 

 

[sologdin]

Bullied for his less than marital interests, fat, and overly concerned about shaming his father(though in the case of Geder it’s clearly love while Sam simply fears Randyl). 

if he lacks marital interest, does that mean he simply wants to bring it around town indiscriminately?  and what relation is the corpulence to this or to the fact that he shames his father (which is incidentally not my interpretation of martin)?

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, sologdin said:

Bullied for his less than marital interests, fat, and overly concerned about shaming his father(though in the case of Geder it’s clearly love while Sam simply fears Randyl). 

if he lacks marital interest, does that mean he simply wants to bring it around town indiscriminately?  and what relation is the corpulence to this or to the fact that he shames his father (which is incidentally not my interpretation of martin)?

I meant manly, not marital. Yes, I know that’s a ridiculous error for one to make. 

I was simply giving my initial impression of Geder when reading his early POV characters. He reminded me of Sam. Because of his body, interests in reading, his shy demeanor, and the abuse he suffers in response to not living up to the ideal of a what a man should be from the eyes of his peers.

I didn’t say Sam shamed Randyl. I said Sam was concerned about shaming his father. Particularly because Sam thinks Randyl is very willing to murder him.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

Dagger and Coin! Dagger and Coin! 

Daniel Abraham!

Correct. I edited my topic in response to you pointing out those faults. Thanks.  

 

[IlyaP]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Correct. I edited my topic in response to you pointing out those faults. Thanks.  

They're not faults really! I just happen to *really* love that quadrilogy, and on my end was comically saying "no no no no! You're doing the words wrong!"  

 

[IlyaP]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I was simply giving my initial impression of Geder when reading his early POV characters. He reminded me of Sam. Because of his body, interests in reading, his shy demeanor, and the abuse he suffers in response to not living up to the ideal of a what a man should be from the eyes of his peers.

I can sort of see that. 

It's also a fascinating narrative meditation on how toxic behaviour begets toxic behaviour. Vicious cycles. 

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I meant manly, not marital. Yes, I know that’s a ridiculous error for one to make.

I assumed you meant martial haha

[Rhom]

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

I assumed you meant martial haha

Same.

Geder is probably my favorite villain in fiction.  He’s just so well written.

[sologdin]

assuming martial was less amusing though.

[HexMachina]

Clara Kalliam quickly became one of my favourite characters when reading this series. The whole cast is wonderful but she really stands above the rest for me personally. 

I appreciated the use of banking as a war tool and the introduction of a dragon not being the insta-win plot device you would expect. Gah, so many twists and turns and developments in this series, i want to reread it already

[Astromech]

21 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Clara Kalliam quickly became one of my favourite characters when reading this series. The whole cast is wonderful but she really stands above the rest for me personally. 

I appreciated the use of banking as a war tool and the introduction of a dragon not being the insta-win plot device you would expect. Gah, so many twists and turns and developments in this series, i want to reread it already

Completely agree.

I enjoyed the series, but clearly not as much as some of my fellow boarders. The Long Price Quartet is still my fav Abraham series. It was nearly flawless for me. I've only read two entries in The Expanse series, so can't really judge that yet.

[IlyaP]

25 minutes ago, Astromech said:

I've only read two entries in The Expanse series, so can't really judge that yet.

 

There's only one more book due out, right?

[Larry of the Lawn]

31 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

 

There's only one more book due out, right?

Yes

[shortstark]

6 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Completely agree. The Long Price Quartet is still my fav Abraham series. It was nearly flawless for me. 

Oh yes, i have not however read a bad book by Abraham, the quality is really top notch.

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 hours ago, IlyaP said:

I can sort of see that. 

It's also a fascinating narrative meditation on how toxic behaviour begets toxic behaviour. Vicious cycles. 

Um I don’t get the impression we’re meant to take Geder’s initial abuse, as a strong factor for his actions. He’s not really worsened(as a person), by outside forces. Everything “evil” Geder is entirely a result of his own nature.

6 hours ago, Rhom said:

Same.

Geder is probably my favorite villain in fiction.  He’s just so well written.

Agreed. He’s a perfect example of how evil could be so banal.

[IlyaP]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Um I don’t get the impression we’re meant to take Geder’s initial abuse, as a strong factor for his actions. He’s not really worsened(as a person), by outside forces. Everything “evil” Geder is entirely a result of his own nature.

It's not clear to me that Abraham ever wanted to make a nature vs nurture argument, but I think there's wiggle room to suggest that being constantly belittled, abused, mocked, insulted, teased, etc., did nothing to help him either. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

45 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

It's not clear to me that Abraham ever wanted to make a nature vs nurture argument, but I think there's wiggle room to suggest that being constantly belittled, abused, mocked, insulted, teased, etc., did nothing to help him either. 

Yes he was bullied. Severely at times before his ascension to Regent.  But it wasn’t the abuse he thought of when he ordered massacres-it was disappointing his father, keeping his one of his only true friends safe, the bullying he suffered isn’t a strong factor in his gross actions.  

[Rorshach]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes he was bullied. Severely at times before his ascension to Regent.  But it wasn’t the abuse he thought of when he ordered massacres-it was disappointing his father, keeping his one of his only true friends safe, the bullying he suffered isn’t a strong factor in his gross actions.  

It's really not a leap to argue that "not disappointing my father" and "keeping my very few friends safe" are worsened by him constantly being bullied and therefore not having many people to turn to in the first place. 

If you have one or two people you would call friends, and the rest of the world looks down on you, belittles you and bullies you, you go to greater lengths to actually keep those who you call friends. I've seen this dynamic in school several times over.

[Varysblackfyre321]

Huh almost forgot to mention this: In the prologue this is said which I just now realize is foreshadowing to the Goddess being well not real.

“Yeah. Always seems like that, dunit?” she said, staring into the fire. “Some new love comes on like there’s something different about ’em. Like God himself talks whenever their lips flap.”

On 4/26/2019 at 4:55 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

Clara Kalliam quickly became one of my favourite characters when reading this series. The whole cast is wonderful but she really stands above the rest for me personally. 

I appreciated the use of banking as a war tool and the introduction of a dragon not being the insta-win plot device you would expect. Gah, so many twists and turns and developments in this series, i want to reread it already

Clara is rather unique. I can’t help but see her as being a good example of a female character being able to be strong in ways that aren’t traditionally seen as masculine. She’s a champion at maneuvering in the political arena.  I think writers often conflate a female character  being anti-feminine with being strong. 

Like with the AGOT show. Seriously, having Arya Stark, say all girls are stupid and Briene use the word “woman” as an insult.