Coins, Daggers, and re-reads.

[IlyaP]

22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If WWIII takes place, Barclays will survive it with the cockroaches.  Their investment arm is the dodgiest bank on Earth.

Heh. I see this and I feel like I need to photoshop a picture of ANZ with a little cartoon bubble that says "hold my beer!"

 

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Heh. I see this and I feel like I need to photoshop a picture of ANZ with a little cartoon bubble that says "hold my beer!"

 

Deutsche Bank and Goldman Sachs say "hello" as well.

[IlyaP]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Deutsche Bank and Goldman Sachs say "hello" as well.

Don't forget Dresdner and Commerzbank! 

Ahh finance, I don't miss working in an industry that made me feel like I constantly had to apologise for making a (fantastic) living. 

[HexMachina]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

There's more to her story, I agree.  I'm just starting Book 5.

I think Cithrin benefits from quite a lot of plot armour (like Jon Snow).  Surely no  head of a bank would tolerate someone who, however brilliant, is an out of control alcoholic.

I don’t think he much cares,..while she is a success story. The second she fails though i suspect far less leniency...

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I don’t think he much cares,..while she is a success story. The second she fails though i suspect far less leniency...

Ilya P has corrected me.  It's standard in investment banking.

[IlyaP]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ilya P has corrected me.  It's standard in investment banking.

Gods but that makes me sound like a bit of a dick, doesn't it? 

It's just that it's a field I've worked in for quite a few years and saw shit that is breathtakingly unreal. To say nothing of the copious literature available in the English language on the absurdities of industry. (Margin Call, BTW, is the most accurate film I've ever seen on the realities of the industry.)

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Gods but that makes me sound like a bit of a dick, doesn't it? 

It's just that it's a field I've worked in for quite a few years and saw shit that is breathtakingly unreal. To say nothing of the copious literature available in the English language on the absurdities of industry. (Margin Call, BTW, is the most accurate film I've ever seen on the realities of the industry.)

No, not at all.  I was amused by your comment. I read books like Liar's Poker and Den of Thieves, when I was younger, and have friends who have worked in the field.   Investment banking attracts some very reckless people, who enjoy gambling.  Some of them drink too much or take drugs.  Cithrin would fit into that culture.

[IlyaP]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

No, not at all.  I was amused by your comment.

Oh thank goodness. It's *so* goddamn hard to gauge nuance, body language, tone, stress, etc., over the internet (Enoch Root's interesting Platonic notions of communication and personhood as expressed to Randy in Cryptonomicon notwithstanding), so I'm a bit of a worrywart around how I communicate in a digital environment. 

(I'm also very happy to provide credentials as evidence, should anyone ever request them, for the sake of validating and backing up my statements.) 

[karaddin]

On 5/5/2019 at 4:00 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Issadorian legitimately feels like such a good guy who genuinely wants to combat social-injustice.

This was one of my favourite parts of the first few books. Some of Dan's peers are writing works that are praised for their subversive takes on the genre while in some ways this was viewed as more of a by the numbers fantasy work (following his sadly less financially successful but brilliant first series), however this part in particular is some wonderfully subtle subversion. Issadorian would normally be the hero of the story while Dawson is the dyed in the wool conservative that the hero must overcome, but the power of point of view makes us sympathise with Dawson and view him as the hero.

I'd argue Issadorian is actually the hero and as least as far as that conflict is concerned, we're watching from the villains point of view. Of course then Geder comes along and suddenly Dawson is actually the hero - he's a true conservative that wants to conserve the society he lives in so he opposes a progression agenda of social reform AND the awful, explicitly racist authoritarian that takes over his society.

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

This was one of my favourite parts of the first few books. Some of Dan's peers are writing works that are praised for their subversive takes on the genre while in some ways this was viewed as more of a by the numbers fantasy work (following his sadly less financially successful but brilliant first series), however this part in particular is some wonderfully subtle subversion. Issadorian would normally be the hero of the story while Dawson is the dyed in the wool conservative that the hero must overcome, but the power of point of view makes us sympathise with Dawson and view him as the hero.

I'd argue Issadorian is actually the hero and as least as far as that conflict is concerned, we're watching from the villains point of view. Of course then Geder comes along and suddenly Dawson is actually the hero - he's a true conservative that wants to conserve the society he lives in so he opposes a progression agenda of social reform AND the awful, explicitly racist authoritarian that takes over his society.

Yes, this was something i loved too. Making a character whose views were consistent with the norm for the society but so at odds with modern sensibilities our “hero” and still managing to successfully (imo) have us root for him was some great writing

[Maithanet]

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Yes, this was something i loved too. Making a character whose views were consistent with the norm for the society but so at odds with modern sensibilities our “hero” and still managing to successfully (imo) have us root for him was some great writing

Abraham said in one of these threads that Dawson was based on old German aristocracy that opposed Hitler not because of his abhorrent beliefs but because he was just an upjumped commoner upsetting the social order.  I think Abraham called Dawson "someone some far behind the times that history has lapped him". 

I did enjoy Dawson's perspective, although I wouldn't really say I was rooting for him except in his (clearly doomed) insurrection against Geder.

[Rhom]

4 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Abraham said in one of these threads that Dawson was based on old German aristocracy that opposed Hitler not because of his abhorrent beliefs but because he was just an upjumped commoner upsetting the social order.  I think Abraham called Dawson "someone some far behind the times that history has lapped him". 

I did enjoy Dawson's perspective, although I wouldn't really say I was rooting for him except in his (clearly doomed) insurrection against Geder.

YES!  I remember that interaction.  I thought it was genius.

[karaddin]

13 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Abraham said in one of these threads that Dawson was based on old German aristocracy that opposed Hitler not because of his abhorrent beliefs but because he was just an upjumped commoner upsetting the social order.  I think Abraham called Dawson "someone some far behind the times that history has lapped him". 

I did enjoy Dawson's perspective, although I wouldn't really say I was rooting for him except in his (clearly doomed) insurrection against Geder.

 

9 hours ago, Rhom said:

YES!  I remember that interaction.  I thought it was genius.

I can't believe I'd forgotten that, the phrase really stands out as a great quote. The other notable thing Dawson managed was getting a death scene that managed to truly unsettle me. It's from Clara's point of view right?

[Argonath Diver]

On 5/6/2019 at 5:29 PM, SeanF said:

No, not at all.  I was amused by your comment. I read books like Liar's Poker and Den of Thieves, when I was younger, and have friends who have worked in the field.   Investment banking attracts some very reckless people, who enjoy gambling.  Some of them drink too much or take drugs.  Cithrin would fit into that culture.

Random contribution to this thread offshoot:

I bartended in NYC for 8 years. Last year I was working a private party at a downtown pub, thats the Financial District - most of our customer base were wall street guys or bankers. The group i had were celebrating some big corporate buyout whatever, clearly involving hundreds of millions of dollars. Whatever. What struck me was that every person that raised a collective toast - many - every single time they'd say "no one knew this was possible" and "so much came together behind the scenes and we kept everything on the up and up" and "keeping things ethical was our priority" and all this. Whatever they bought out or merged or whatsit, I'll stake my reputation that it was some seriously shady shit. The waiters and I were all whispering "so like everyone here is vile, right?"

I'd rather serve blue collar folk forever over that financial crowd down there (no offense to you, IlyaP!)

Also, man I need to re-read this series.

[IlyaP]

19 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

I'd rather serve blue collar folk forever over that financial crowd down there (no offense to you, IlyaP!)

None taken. It's a fascinating industry to work in, very fast-paced, high-energy industry. If you can get past FX traders who don't know the difference between a *.png and a *bmp, Luddite researchers who struggle with email signatures, file version control nightmares from the central circles of hell, homophobic comments from economists, business managers declaring that "lesbians aren't real, they're just women who haven't found the right c**k in their mouth", commodity managers who struggle with knowing how to use tables in HTML-rich emails, a lack of gratitude or appreciation from others...if you can get past all that - there's some interesting work that can be done, and some interesting and genuinely good people that can be met. And the pay is awesome. 

It's just, well, all the other stuff you have to deal with. 

[jurble]

visit /r/wallstreetbets on Reddit IlyaP.  It'll either amuse or horrify you.  It's half people parodying Wall Street bro culture, half people seriously buying into it, and 100% people losing money on awful trades.

 

is a personal favorite of mine.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 5/7/2019 at 6:36 AM, Maithanet said:

Abraham said in one of these threads that Dawson was based on old German aristocracy that opposed Hitler not because of his abhorrent beliefs but because he was just an upjumped commoner upsetting the social order.  I think Abraham called Dawson "someone some far behind the times that history has lapped him". 

I did enjoy Dawson's perspective, although I wouldn't really say I was rooting for him except in his (clearly doomed) insurrection against Geder.

This kinda of describes Dawson perfectly. His only real reasons for opposing Geder is that he’s decided to take the advisements of foreigners, and wants to slaughter noblemen like they’re filthy peasants. Any other atrocities Geder has committed isn’t really a big deal to him. 

On 5/6/2019 at 8:31 PM, karaddin said:

'd argue Issadorian is actually the hero and as least as far as that conflict is concerned, we're watching from the villains point of view. Of course then Geder comes along and suddenly Dawson is actually the hero - he's a true conservative that wants to conserve the society he lives in so he opposes a progression agenda of social reform AND the awful, explicitly racist authoritarian that takes over his society.

I wouldn’t go that far. Issadorien was an unknowingly working as a puppet of the king of Asterbold. I think it’s ironic for much as Dawson tried to destroy Issa’s movement his actions probably brought what he feared coming to pass much sooner. Like it probably would’ve taken much longer for the farmers’ council to have be created if not for the conflict Dawson in part created by deciding to use Geder as a tool.

On 5/6/2019 at 8:31 PM, karaddin said:

This was one of my favourite parts of the first few books. Some of Dan's peers are writing works that are praised for their subversive takes on the genre while in some ways this was viewed as more of a by the numbers fantasy work (following his sadly less financially successful but brilliant first series), however this part in particular is some wonderfully subtle subversion. Issadorian would normally be the hero of the story while Dawson is the dyed in the wool conservative that the hero must overcome, but the power of point of view makes us sympathise with Dawson and view him as the hero.

 

One could sympathize with Dawson certainly. But him being a POV character doesn’t make him a hero anymore than Victorien was a hero in AFFC when he was granted a POV and shown to genuinely value the traditions of his people and capable of regret. 

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This kinda of describes Dawson perfectly. His only real reasons for opposing Geder is that he’s decided to take the advisements of foreigners, and wants to slaughter noblemen like they’re filthy peasants. Any other atrocities Geder has committed isn’t really a big deal to him. 

I wouldn’t go that far. Issadorien was an unknowingly working as a puppet of the king of Asterbold. I think it’s ironic for much as Dawson tried to destroy Issa’s movement his actions probably brought what he feared coming to pass much sooner. Like it probably would’ve taken much longer for the farmers’ council to have be created if not for the conflict Dawson in part created by deciding to use Geder as a tool.

One could sympathize with Dawson certainly. But him being a POV character doesn’t make him a hero anymore than Victorien was a hero in AFFC when he was granted a POV and shown to genuinely value the traditions of his people and capable of regret. 

 

Thanks for the recommendation.  I enjoyed the series.  There are certainly plenty of loose ends if the author wants to write a sequel.

[IlyaP]

15 hours ago, ير بال said:

/r/wallstreetbets

OH MY GLOM. 

 

 

(What, no love for John Law and his Mississippi Scheme, which produced the first ever usage of the word "millionaire" in Paris?)

[illrede]

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This kinda of describes Dawson perfectly. His only real reasons for opposing Geder is that he’s decided to take the advisements of foreigners, and wants to slaughter noblemen like they’re filthy peasants. Any other atrocities Geder has committed isn’t really a big deal to him. 

I wouldn’t go that far. Issadorien was an unknowingly working as a puppet of the king of Asterbold. I think it’s ironic for much as Dawson tried to destroy Issa’s movement his actions probably brought what he feared coming to pass much sooner. Like it probably would’ve taken much longer for the farmers’ council to have be created if not for the conflict Dawson in part created by deciding to use Geder as a tool.

One could sympathize with Dawson certainly. But him being a POV character doesn’t make him a hero anymore than Victorien was a hero in AFFC when he was granted a POV and shown to genuinely value the traditions of his people and capable of regret. 

 

I would disagree and say that Dawson is heroic; providing a very stripped-down view of heroism. He is a profoundly classist military aristocrat with no displayed inclination to or capacity for change and utterly conventional to his context. He possesses integrity and does not lie to himself about himself, nor does he wish to lie to himself about others if he can help it. This lets him get Geder right, when very few of his countrymen did. His wife is a more appealing version, what Dawson does is clear the minimum requirement as well as provide a clear focus on what the minimum requirement is. What does a preference or antipathy for a specific kind of political organization have to do with heroism, really?