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Varysblackfyre321

Coins, Daggers, and re-reads.

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Huh almost forgot to mention this: In the prologue this is said which I just now realize is foreshadowing to the Goddess being well not real.

“Yeah. Always seems like that, dunit?” she said, staring into the fire. “Some new love comes on like there’s something different about ’em. Like God himself talks whenever their lips flap.”

On 4/26/2019 at 4:55 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

Clara Kalliam quickly became one of my favourite characters when reading this series. The whole cast is wonderful but she really stands above the rest for me personally. 

I appreciated the use of banking as a war tool and the introduction of a dragon not being the insta-win plot device you would expect. Gah, so many twists and turns and developments in this series, i want to reread it already

Clara is rather unique. I can’t help but see her as being a good example of a female character being able to be strong in ways that aren’t traditionally seen as masculine. She’s a champion at maneuvering in the political arena.  I think writers often conflate a female character  being anti-feminine with being strong. 

Like with the AGOT show. Seriously, having Arya Stark, say all girls are stupid and Briene use the word “woman” as an insult. 

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On 4/27/2019 at 12:39 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes he was bullied. Severely at times before his ascension to Regent.  But it wasn’t the abuse he thought of when he ordered massacres-it was disappointing his father, keeping his one of his only true friends safe, the bullying he suffered isn’t a strong factor in his gross actions.  

I'd say this is part of his emotional reason but I'd also that there is a belief that he's using "coldly rational" "historically proven" solutions (not his words or directly from the book, but I didn't want to give the impression I agree), at least in how he first gets started on his brutal path. Its how he talks himself into burning the city and then that works out so well for him back home that it becomes self reinforcing - the inhumane responses DO work for him and keep working...until they suddenly don't and he realises how fucked he is.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'd say this is part of his emotional reason but I'd also that there is a belief that he's using "coldly rational" "historically proven" solutions (not his words or directly from the book, but I didn't want to give the impression I agree), at least in how he first gets started on his brutal path. Its how he talks himself into burning the city and then that works out so well for him back home that it becomes self reinforcing - the inhumane responses DO work for him and keep working...until they suddenly don't and he realises how fucked he is.

 I do agree that Geder believes he’s being objective in decisions to commit genocide. “Historically proven” seems wrong though . He’s not really working off a particular example. At most he’s seeing the repeated failures to accomplish something very complex and coming with a rather simplistic answer. And his solutions fall in line with his interest in speculation. Like he explicitly says  he’s more interested in exploring what “may” or what “could” have happened instead of what definitely did when explaining his preference for speculative essays over history. His solutions themselves seem to make sense in theory-get rid of the Asterbold nobility and simply have the  Aeithi nobility take control of the territory of the land. But when actually tried it does turn out to be a complete failure. Dawson said it best when he described Geder as someone who thinks what they’re doing because they read some books on the topic.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Posted (edited)
On 4/26/2019 at 1:21 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I  am getting into my third re-read of the “Dagger and coin” Series by Daniel Abraham. So far I’m liking it. You know every time I read Geder’s begining POV chapters in the Dragon path I can’t help but think of Sam from ASOIAF. Bullied for his less than “manly”  interests, not in the best shape, and concerned about shaming his father(though in the case of Geder it’s clearly love generating his worries while Sam simply  fears Randyl), and someone who loves to read particularly about history.

Thanks for the recommendation.  I've begun reading the Dragon's Path, and I enjoy it a lot.

Edit:  I've just finished it, and certainly want to continue:-

I'd guessed by about mid-way that Kit was the apostate.

Of the main protagonists, so far, Cithrin and Geder are the ones that interest me the most.  I want Cithrin to succeed, and have some sympathy for Geder, although I appreciate he will turn out very badly.   I like Marcus.   Dawson comes over as a bit thick, and a long way out of his depth.  It's interesting and unusual to see economics being treated as an important part of the plot in a fantasy novel.

Edited by SeanF

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5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Thanks for the recommendation.  I've begun reading the Dragon's Path, and I enjoy it a lot.

Edit:  I've just finished it, and certainly want to continue:-

I'd guessed by about mid-way that Kit was the apostate.

Of the main protagonists, so far, Cithrin and Geder are the ones that interest me the most.  I want Cithrin to succeed, and have some sympathy for Geder, although I appreciate he will turn out very badly.   I like Marcus.   Dawson comes over as a bit thick, and a long way out of his depth.  It's interesting and unusual to see economics being treated as an important part of the plot in a fantasy novel.

If it’s your first time through, I might shy away from this thread as there will be obvious spoilers.  I think each of the books had an individual thread around their release that you could follow discussion on if interested.

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Ok near done with book 1. Question; I never really got why the age of adulthood in this world is 19. Seems rather high given the setting no? Hell its higher than what we have in the US. 

 

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On 4/26/2019 at 12:55 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

Clara Kalliam quickly became one of my favourite characters when reading this series. The whole cast is wonderful but she really stands above the rest for me personally. 

I appreciated the use of banking as a war tool and the introduction of a dragon not being the insta-win plot device you would expect. Gah, so many twists and turns and developments in this series, i want to reread it already

Yes, I'm warming to her.  A good example of how most mothers are better to us than we deserve.

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On 4/30/2019 at 2:02 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ok near done with book 1. Question; I never really got why the age of adulthood in this world is 19. Seems rather high given the setting no? Hell its higher than what we have in the US. 

 

For centuries, in England, the age of inheritance was 21. 

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes, I'm warming to her.  A good example of how most mothers are better to us than we deserve.

She just goes through such a transformative journey. Her views and attitudes and values change dramatically but in a way that feels earned. If you like her this early you will love the depth of the arc she goes on

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

She just goes through such a transformative journey. Her views and attitudes and values change dramatically but in a way that feels earned. If you like her this early you will love the depth of the arc she goes on

I suppose shared adversity tends to break down social barriers, in the same way that a lot of young upper class men ended WWI with very different views about the working classes, after having risked their lives together 

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On 4/26/2019 at 12:04 PM, Rhom said:

Same.

Geder is probably my favorite villain in fiction.  He’s just so well written.

He's certainly a good example of the banality of evil.

And, although he is manipulated by Basrahip, he commits atrocities on his own initiative, not that of the priests.

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12 hours ago, SeanF said:

He's certainly a good example of the banality of evil.

And, although he is manipulated by Basrahip, he commits atrocities on his own initiative, not that of the priests.

Hey that’s the exact sentiment I expressed on the first page of this thread. 

Geder does not really hate the people he massacres. Even when he thinks the Timaze(or at least tries to convince himself) are less than human. There’s no grand plan really, or a love for bloodshed(honestly I think Geder would balk at actually killing all the children he took hostage if he personally had to kill all of them with his hands) simple things such as avoiding embarrassing his father or protecting his friend is enough.

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On 5/3/2019 at 9:15 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

simple things such as avoiding embarrassing his father or protecting his friend is enough.

I wonder, if we did a frequency count of how many times Geder thinks to himself or says out loud "can't these people see that I'm trying to help them?", what the final tally would be. 

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And I’m finished with the Dragon path. 

You know I always feel the most sorry for Issadorian and Lerer.

Issadorian legitimately feels like such a good guy who genuinely wants to combat social-injustice.

Lerer, is slowly watching his(in his view) innocent, sweet boy, be tainted and abused by those who see him as nothing but a pawn. 

On 5/1/2019 at 7:45 AM, SeanF said:

Yes, I'm warming to her.  A good example of how most mothers are better to us than we deserve.

Meh, I think her journey has her learning being a good mother, and wife, aren’t the only things that define-they are certainly part of who she is, but she’s so much more, and doesn’t have to sacrifice her own happiness for her family’s reputation every time.

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5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, I think her journey has her learning being a good mother, and wife, aren’t the only things that define-they are certainly part of who she is, but she’s so much more, and doesn’t have to sacrifice her own happiness for her family’s reputation every time.

Just you wait! 

Her arc is wonderful! 

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Oh nice a Dagger and Coin thread!  I just randomly had a thought on it after watching tonight's episode of GoT.   I think the older threads are all archived by this point, so thoughts here (full series spoilers - no GoT spoilers tho it just procc'd my memory).  Basically I wouldn't mind a sequel to this series where:

 

Spoiler

Geder is basically historically rehabilitated by nationalists in his country in a century or two as a guy that was betrayed (((SUBVERSIVE ELEMENTS))) working in concert with (((DRAGONS))) or something along those lines.   It would be an interesting backdrop for a fantasy series set in a time-period we rarely see fantasy in - the mid 20th century-ish.  

@DanielAbraham  

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On 4 May 2019 at 7:00 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And I’m finished with the Dragon path. 

You know I always feel the most sorry for Issadorian and Lerer.

Issadorian legitimately feels like such a good guy who genuinely wants to combat social-injustice.

Lerer, is slowly watching his(in his view) innocent, sweet boy, be tainted and abused by those who see him as nothing but a pawn. 

Meh, I think her journey has her learning being a good mother, and wife, aren’t the only things that define-they are certainly part of who she is, but she’s so much more, and doesn’t have to sacrifice her own happiness for her family’s reputation every time.

There's more to her story, I agree.  I'm just starting Book 5.

I think Cithrin benefits from quite a lot of plot armour (like Jon Snow).  Surely no  head of a bank would tolerate someone who, however brilliant, is an out of control alcoholic.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think Cithrin benefits from quite a lot of plot armour (like Jon Snow).  Surely no  head of a bank would tolerate someone who, however brilliant, is an out of control alcoholic.

I spent four years working on a trading floor. I can assure you that we had plenty of out of control alcoholics to which everyone turned a blind eye.

Edited by IlyaP

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19 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

I spent four years working on a trading floor. I can assure you that we had plenty of out of control alcoholics to which everyone turned a blind eye.

Point taken.  Cithrin would be the sort of investment banker or trader who made billions before blowing up the company.

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24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Point taken.  Cithrin would be the sort of investment banker or trader who made billions before blowing up the company.

You make me think of the Panama Papers and the reveals that were made about Barclays, HSBC, ANZ, and others. And yet, somehow, they're all still standing. 

That said - Fannie May and Lehman Brothers? G-g-g-oooonne. 

 

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