Jon's resurrection

[Lady Anna]

Hello. How do you guys think Jon will come back to life - if you believe he even died - and what would be the repercussions?

I'm starting this thread because, from what I've seen, most people believe Melisandre will bring him back like Thoros did with Beric, but recently I saw a post elsewhere with an interesting ideia that I haven't seen here before, I think: that while trying to burn Jon's body so he doesn't come back as a wight, Jon will go through something similar as Dany did at the end of AGOT and his body won't burn, and either that will trigger his resurrection, or Mel would see it and realize  she should bring him back.

As for myself, I believe that Jon will warg into Ghost for a while, and that Mel will definitely have some part to play. I also think, and based on what we've seen with other characters, that there's no way that Jon comes back the same. I think he will become a more single-minded person and much more of a knight templar-y person in pursuit of his heroic goals (possibly commiting some drastic actions in the process). As an aside, and as some have said here, I agree that Daenerys is possibly going to become a more ruthless individual (''Fire and Blood''), and maybe these two will have that parallel in common. And I think it will fit with the darker tone of the series that GRRM said will exist in Winds.

What are you guys opinions?

[Lord Varys]

I think it is going to be a combination. Jon's spirit will be stuck in Ghost, since as a skinchanger he'll start his second life. Mel will, either accidentally (like Thoros) or intentionally (to give the Jon the opportunity to return to his body) resurrect his body. The problem thereafter should be to get his spirit back into his body. Also, to figure out that he is not completely gone. Borroq should eventually help with that, but one guesses that Jon-Ghost won't be in a good mood or capable of making 'rational decisions' after his death.

Another problem likely will be Jon's state of mind. He is not exactly an experienced skinchanger, and if were to be stuck days/weeks in Ghost he is likely going to be much more 'wolfish' upon his return than one would expect. We do know that you slowly but surely lose your human self in your second life, so this is going to become an issue as well.

[Lady Anna]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

IAnother problem likely will be Jon's state of mind. He is not exactly an experienced skinchanger, and if were to be stuck days/weeks in Ghost he is likely going to be much more 'wolfish' upon his return than one would expect. We do know that you slowly but surely lose your human self in your second life, so this is going to become an issue as well.

Agreed. I think this is something that we sometimes don't take into account when debating his future.

[Springwatch]

If he does get resurrected,  I only know it won't happen quickly. There's a big spirit world out there we hardly know anything about, and Jon's arc is already aimed at connection with the wights, and with the ghosts in the crypts.

In fact, he might be a lot more powerful dead than he ever could be alive. Living armies don't stand much chance in Old Nan's version of winter.

[divica]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think it is going to be a combination. Jon's spirit will be stuck in Ghost, since as a skinchanger he'll start his second life. Mel will, either accidentally (like Thoros) or intentionally (to give the Jon the opportunity to return to his body) resurrect his body. The problem thereafter should be to get his spirit back into his body. Also, to figure out that he is not completely gone. Borroq should eventually help with that, but one guesses that Jon-Ghost won't be in a good mood or capable of making 'rational decisions' after his death.

Another problem likely will be Jon's state of mind. He is not exactly an experienced skinchanger, and if were to be stuck days/weeks in Ghost he is likely going to be much more 'wolfish' upon his return than one would expect. We do know that you slowly but surely lose your human self in your second life, so this is going to become an issue as well.

 

3 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

Agreed. I think this is something that we sometimes don't take into account when debating his future.

 

36 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

If he does get resurrected,  I only know it won't happen quickly. There's a big spirit world out there we hardly know anything about, and Jon's arc is already aimed at connection with the wights, and with the ghosts in the crypts.

In fact, he might be a lot more powerful dead than he ever could be alive. Living armies don't stand much chance in Old Nan's version of winter.

This has been discussed time and time again. Nobody keeps a dead body for days/weeks. Much less people on the Wall that know what happens to dead bodies in the north...

If jon dies his ressurection will happen in a very short amount of time. And most of the wildlings present and mel know jon is a potential warg… Besides the fact that mel has seen in her flames that she will save jon. Oh and we also have bran and the wildling warg that can help him get out of ghost… There is no logical reason for people to not know that jon's consciousness is inside ghost and not try to help him get to his body as fast as possible...

Another important aspect to take into account is that the stark direwolves are clearly special. We have no idea what permanent effect warging into 1 of these wolves for a long period of time has. But surelly it should be much more mild than dying and being ressurected.

I think it is highly unrealistic to expect more than 1 or 2 chaps from ghost's perspective and that hey would span more than a few days...

[kissdbyfire]

No resurrection IMO. I don’t think he’s proper dead. But there will be [hopefully] warging... 

ETA: and the whole coming back “changed”, more ruthless etc doesn’t really require death; getting betrayed and shanked by men under your command can accomplish that just as well. 

[divica]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

No resurrection IMO. I don’t think he’s proper dead. But there will be [hopefully] warging... 

I think this is a unique oportunity for bran to give jon some visions and/or lessons. The series is almost ending and nobody knows a lot of things about the ww, AA/last hero, lightbringer, coldhands, benjen, how to fight the ww (in the books we are told that mance can t fight them)… Besides the fact that jon doesn t know anything about his warging abilities…

 

[Lord Varys]

57 minutes ago, divica said:

This has been discussed time and time again. Nobody keeps a dead body for days/weeks. Much less people on the Wall that know what happens to dead bodies in the north...

If jon dies his ressurection will happen in a very short amount of time. And most of the wildlings present and mel know jon is a potential warg… Besides the fact that mel has seen in her flames that she will save jon. Oh and we also have bran and the wildling warg that can help him get out of ghost… There is no logical reason for people to not know that jon's consciousness is inside ghost and not try to help him get to his body as fast as possible...

Another important aspect to take into account is that the stark direwolves are clearly special. We have no idea what permanent effect warging into 1 of these wolves for a long period of time has. But surelly it should be much more mild than dying and being ressurected.

I think it is highly unrealistic to expect more than 1 or 2 chaps from ghost's perspective and that hey would span more than a few days...

There is basically no reason to assume that anyone would want to resurrect Jon. Sure, they would realize he is in Ghost but usually skinchangers are not resurrected because they have started their second lives, right? And considering that bodies don't rot quickly at the Wall - especially if they are dumped in an ice cell - and they might have some more important things to do than burying Jon any development involving his body might be postponed for a considerable time.

There is a reason why George gave as a new POV in Melisandre at the Wall. Jon is no longer needed as a POV for the time being.

Jon won't be dead in the sense Cat and Beric died, because his spirit will be 'safe' in Ghost.

[Lady Anna]

40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No resurrection IMO. I don’t think he’s proper dead. But there will be [hopefully] warging... 

ETA: and the whole coming back “changed”, more ruthless etc doesn’t really require death; getting betrayed and shanked by men under your command can accomplish that just as well. 

True.

[divica]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

There is basically no reason to assume that anyone would want to resurrect Jon. Sure, they would realize he is in Ghost but usually skinchangers are not resurrected because they have started their second lives, right? And considering that bodies don't rot quickly at the Wall - especially if they are dumped in an ice cell - and they might have some more important things to do than burying Jon any development involving his body might be postponed for a considerable time.

There is a reason why George gave as a new POV in Melisandre at the Wall. Jon is no longer needed as a POV for the time being.

Jon won't be dead in the sense Cat and Beric died, because his spirit will be 'safe' in Ghost.

Are you saying that the wildlings, the clansmen guests (if they are still there) and other NW brothers won t have time to burn jon's body within a day or two? We are talking about the lord comander, the man that saved 3 or 4 K wildlings and ned's bastard! He is someone a lot of people respect and would want to have a proper burial.

We have no reason to believe that anybody would keep a dead body when they know how dangerous it is. Unless they want jon to become a wight they will burn his body as soon as possible… There is no logical argument to support keeping his body frozen somewhere instead of burning it as fast as possible (1 or 2 days top) besides saying "it creativily makes sense to you so you made it happen".

In regards to mel, first we won t have a lot of chapters from her pov because it would destroy the mistery related to her character. And secondly, if grrm wanted anybody to believe that jon might die he needed another pov on the Wall. Otherwise he might as well write jon's next chapter because nobody dies (and stays dead) in their pov… In adition, no matter how fast jon recovers we will need 1 or 2 chaps from mel to understand what happened after the stabing and how jon will recover from the ordeal. So her pov doesn t necessarily prove anything...

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

We have no reason to believe that anybody would keep a dead body when they know how dangerous it is. Unless they want jon to become a wight they will burn his body as soon as possible… There is no logical argument to support keeping his body frozen somewhere instead of burning it as fast as possible (1 or 2 days top) besides saying "it creativily makes sense to you so you made it happen".

Where are you getting this? There are no wights on the southern of the Wall, have never been there in the novels. Nobody at the Wall burns their dead. They have a lichyard, burying their dead in the ground. Also, Jon has put corpses into the Wall hoping they would rise so he could study wights. Nobody burns the dead at the Wall.

We have no idea what the assassination is going to trigger and what's going to happen afterwards. If there is fighting then there is no time for a burial, if the Weeper attacks or the Others make a move, etc. people may have better things to do, etc.

But the obvious narrative buildup here is that Jon is going to start to live his second life. We didn't get introduced to that concept in Varamyr's Prologue just so that we could watch him lose his humanity in his wolf (in fact, all that skinchanger background stuff had no narrative purpose until the last Jon chapter - then it became important, prior to that I was at a loss why we should care that Varamyr was no living - and slowly disappearing inside his wolf). We got that for Jon's sake, we are to wonder what's going to happen to him after his death and how long 'Jon' will survive in Ghost.

We also got the stuff about a skinchanger always recognizing another so that Jon can be identified as 'Jon' in Ghost. Because skinchangers recognize each other both in human and in animal form. That is certainly where Borroq will play a role, but there is no reason to believe he will do help resolve those complex issues in half an hour, or so.

In fact, I expect Ghost to rip a couple of men to pieces and then run away. I don't think Jon will understand what has happened to him nor will he be able to differentiate friend from foe. And how could he? He was murdered by people he thought were his friends. He could very well conclude that he can trust no one now.

Borroq and Mel could eventually set out to track down Ghost-Jon and bring him back, but only after the situation at the Wall will have resolved itself.

One also could see Ghost having to be sacrificed to 'free' Jon's spirit so it can return to his reanimated corpse. Which could be another complication because Ghost-Jon most likely is not going to be eager to be ritually sacrificed. Jon already died once, what remains of him is likely not keen to die a second time.

2 minutes ago, divica said:

In regards to mel, first we won t have a lot of chapters from her pov because it would destroy the mistery related to her character. And secondly, if grrm wanted anybody to believe that jon might die he needed another pov on the Wall. Otherwise he might as well write jon's next chapter because nobody dies (and stays dead) in their pov… In adition, no matter how fast jon recovers we will need 1 or 2 chaps from mel to understand what happened after the stabing and how jon will recover from the ordeal. So her pov doesn t necessarily prove anything...

Well, we have no reason to believe Jon is ever going to be a POV again, do we? Even if he comes back from the dead. Catelyn was a POV, too, she got killed and was resurrected and then ceased to be a POV with George actually confirming that she is never going to be a POV again. It might be the case that Jon Snow remains a crucial and important character of the books but is no longer POV but rather seen exclusively through the eyes of others.

Mel is a POV now, and that means that the author cares more about her viewpoint and her story than he cares about many other (important) characters. The time to keep Melisandre mysterious is clearly nearing its end - but then, not everything a character knows does have to come up just because he or she is a POV.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Where are you getting this? There are no wights on the southern of the Wall, have never been there in the novels. Nobody at the Wall burns their dead. They have a lichyard, burying their dead in the ground. Also, Jon has put corpses into the Wall hoping they would rise so he could study wights. Nobody burns the dead at the Wall.

We have no idea what the assassination is going to trigger and what's going to happen afterwards. If there is fighting then there is no time for a burial, if the Weeper attacks or the Others make a move, etc. people may have better things to do, etc.

But the obvious narrative buildup here is that Jon is going to start to live his second life. We didn't get introduced to that concept in Varamyr's Prologue just so that we could watch him lose his humanity in his wolf (in fact, all that skinchanger background stuff had no narrative purpose until the last Jon chapter - then it became important, prior to that I was at a loss why we should care that Varamyr was no living - and slowly disappearing inside his wolf). We got that for Jon's sake, we are to wonder what's going to happen to him after his death and how long 'Jon' will survive in Ghost.

We also got the stuff about a skinchanger always recognizing another so that Jon can be identified as 'Jon' in Ghost. Because skinchangers recognize each other both in human and in animal form. That is certainly where Borroq will play a role, but there is no reason to believe he will do help resolve those complex issues in half an hour, or so.

In fact, I expect Ghost to rip a couple of men to pieces and then run away. I don't think Jon will understand what has happened to him nor will he be able to differentiate friend from foe. And how could he? He was murdered by people he thought were his friends. He could very well conclude that he can trust no one now.

Borroq and Mel could eventually set out to track down Ghost-Jon and bring him back, but only after the situation at the Wall will have resolved itself.

One also could see Ghost having to be sacrificed to 'free' Jon's spirit so it can return to his reanimated corpse. Which could be another complication because Ghost-Jon most likely is not going to be eager to be ritually sacrificed. Jon already died once, what remains of him is likely not keen to die a second time.

Well, we have no reason to believe Jon is ever going to be a POV again, do we? Even if he comes back from the dead. Catelyn was a POV, too, she got killed and was resurrected and then ceased to be a POV with George actually confirming that she is never going to be a POV again. It might be the case that Jon Snow remains a crucial and important character of the books but is no longer POV but rather seen exclusively through the eyes of others.

Mel is a POV now, and that means that the author cares more about her viewpoint and her story than he cares about many other (important) characters. The time to keep Melisandre mysterious is clearly nearing its end - but then, not everything a character knows does have to come up just because he or she is a POV.

I'm pretty sure they have started burning their dead since the dead started walking & if not they are not too bright. At any rate the wildlings burn their dead for that very same reason so I think it's safe to assume everyone will want to burn Jon's body so he doesn't turn.

I don't think there is any precedence for the sacrificing of Ghost either. Everything we've learned so far has indicated killing Ghost while Jon is warged into him & cannot warg back into his body will kill him for good. 

 

At any rate I've always favored the theory that Mel is going to burn Shireen to resurrect Jon, possibly with out Stannis's permission as he is not at the wall at the time & possibly unleashing grayscale in the process. But I like the idea of Jon having a Dany like rebirth in the fire also. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I personally don't think he has died. I think there's part of the answer in Dany VIII, AGoT 64, and what she sees inside the tent during MMD's blood magic ritual.

She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flame.

Dany didn't just see a wolf. She saw a great wolf, which I've interpreted as being a direwolf.

And we have Mel who tells us in her own chapter that she is more stronger at the Wall;

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers. (Mel I, ADwD 31)

Melisandre's powers and fire magic is powered by the magic of the Wall and the old gods.

Whatever Jon is going to go through, it will have nothing to do with Beric or Lady Stoneheart or the wights raised by the Others or Coldhands.

Between the possible warging into Ghost and the magic, a blend of ice and fire, that will be used, it's going to be very much it's own thing, I think. 

[kissdbyfire]

Three words: Morna White Mask. 

A warrior witch, a chieftain of the FF, and so conspicuously absent from the Shieldhall. 

[divica]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Where are you getting this? There are no wights on the southern of the Wall, have never been there in the novels. Nobody at the Wall burns their dead. They have a lichyard, burying their dead in the ground. Also, Jon has put corpses into the Wall hoping they would rise so he could study wights. Nobody burns the dead at the Wall.

We have no idea what the assassination is going to trigger and what's going to happen afterwards. If there is fighting then there is no time for a burial, if the Weeper attacks or the Others make a move, etc. people may have better things to do, etc.

But the obvious narrative buildup here is that Jon is going to start to live his second life. We didn't get introduced to that concept in Varamyr's Prologue just so that we could watch him lose his humanity in his wolf (in fact, all that skinchanger background stuff had no narrative purpose until the last Jon chapter - then it became important, prior to that I was at a loss why we should care that Varamyr was no living - and slowly disappearing inside his wolf). We got that for Jon's sake, we are to wonder what's going to happen to him after his death and how long 'Jon' will survive in Ghost.

We also got the stuff about a skinchanger always recognizing another so that Jon can be identified as 'Jon' in Ghost. Because skinchangers recognize each other both in human and in animal form. That is certainly where Borroq will play a role, but there is no reason to believe he will do help resolve those complex issues in half an hour, or so.

In fact, I expect Ghost to rip a couple of men to pieces and then run away. I don't think Jon will understand what has happened to him nor will he be able to differentiate friend from foe. And how could he? He was murdered by people he thought were his friends. He could very well conclude that he can trust no one now.

Borroq and Mel could eventually set out to track down Ghost-Jon and bring him back, but only after the situation at the Wall will have resolved itself.

One also could see Ghost having to be sacrificed to 'free' Jon's spirit so it can return to his reanimated corpse. Which could be another complication because Ghost-Jon most likely is not going to be eager to be ritually sacrificed. Jon already died once, what remains of him is likely not keen to die a second time.

If you remember the text the NW is becoming very fond of burning their dead. There are several examples of this happening beyhond the Wall. Honestly, I am not sure how they handle their dead after wights attacked the lord comander south of the Wall. But I don t think you can just assume it is the same way as they handled it before… As you can see in the next quote jon thinks he needs to burn the corpses he brought with him south of the Wall.

Quote

"What would the lord commander like us to do with his corpses?" asked Marsh when the living men had been moved.

"Leave them." If the storm entombed them, well and good. He would need to burn them eventually, no doubt, but for the nonce they were bound with iron chains inside their cells. That, and being dead, should suffice to hold them harmless.

And whatever happens no war or conflict has no pauses… They will surely have 10 minutes to burn a corpse that might get wightfied at any moment or because he deserves a proprer burial… People don t let corpses around… It just doesn t happen...

Then you are forgeting that almost all the wildlings present know that when a warg dies he goes into his animal. We had orell's example. It is almost comon knowledge… There is no need for a skinchanger to recognize he is there… Then I think that ghost/jon first instict is to go to where his body is and then seek revenge against his killers… It is what makes sense… why would he run?

Another important thing to take into account is that mel knew she would need to save jon and there are thousands of wildlings around that can track ghost if needed. I doubt she doesn t have some sort of plan to rescue him already...

Then asoiaf isn t got. An army of several thousands wildlings doesn t attack the Wall without anyone knowing. The conflict in the NW will be solved extremelly fast. Either the wildlings will kill most NW brothers (they outnumber them by a huge margin and some of the NW men must still be loyal to jon) or the NW had a plan to deal with the wildlings and the conflict will end equally fast.

And equally important is that everybody that can save jon knows how dangerous is to be inside an animal for too long. So why would they let jon stay inside ghost for weeks? No reason at all...

In reagards to varamyr, it is used to show what happens when a skinchanger dies (or maybe is close to dying (not remember if he has to be dead in order to warg)). However, we can see with bran how fast he loses himself inside summer. We know jon can t spend weeks inside ghost… Bran spent hours inside summmer and was already losing himself… 

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, we have no reason to believe Jon is ever going to be a POV again, do we? Even if he comes back from the dead. Catelyn was a POV, too, she got killed and was resurrected and then ceased to be a POV with George actually confirming that she is never going to be a POV again. It might be the case that Jon Snow remains a crucial and important character of the books but is no longer POV but rather seen exclusively through the eyes of others.

Mel is a POV now, and that means that the author cares more about her viewpoint and her story than he cares about many other (important) characters. The time to keep Melisandre mysterious is clearly nearing its end - but then, not everything a character knows does have to come up just because he or she is a POV.

Given that we have no idea if jon even died why do you think he wont be a pov?

And mel had 1 pov. We have no idea how grrm feels about her pov… What we know for sure is that we needed another pov to make people believe jon might die and that we would need another pov to understand what happens once jon is out/dead and how he comes back to life (if he is dead)

[divica]

18 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm pretty sure they have started burning their dead since the dead started walking & if not they are not too bright. At any rate the wildlings burn their dead for that very same reason so I think it's safe to assume everyone will want to burn Jon's body so he doesn't turn.

I don't think there is any precedence for the sacrificing of Ghost either. Everything we've learned so far has indicated killing Ghost while Jon is warged into him & cannot warg back into his body will kill him for good. 

 

At any rate I've always favored the theory that Mel is going to burn Shireen to resurrect Jon, possibly with out Stannis's permission as he is not at the wall at the time & possibly unleashing grayscale in the process. But I like the idea of Jon having a Dany like rebirth in the fire also. 

We have mel's profecy about burning the father and then the son in order to awake the dragon. I think this will tie somehow with jon snow getting healed/ressurected.

However we can t see it right now because mel once again misunderstood her visions.

Quote

Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds.

 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm pretty sure they have started burning their dead since the dead started walking & if not they are not too bright. At any rate the wildlings burn their dead for that very same reason so I think it's safe to assume everyone will want to burn Jon's body so he doesn't turn.

No evidence for that in the books. And we don't know whether the wildlings will be in charge of Jon's funeral.

Quote

I don't think there is any precedence for the sacrificing of Ghost either. Everything we've learned so far has indicated killing Ghost while Jon is warged into him & cannot warg back into his body will kill him for good. 

There is no precedence for that, sure, but it would be rather easy if Jon's corpse were just resurrected and he then automatically was shoved back into that body. Varamyr indicates that a skinchanger loses his ability when he takes possession of a non-skinchanger (like Thistle), so a skinchanger stuck in his second life in his animal should be trapped there. The skinchanger is the human, not the animal. Once the human body is dead, the skinchanger is *dead*, too, in the sense that he is trapped in the animal he can jump to.

It should not be easy for Jon to get out of there.

Quote

At any rate I've always favored the theory that Mel is going to burn Shireen to resurrect Jon, possibly with out Stannis's permission as he is not at the wall at the time & possibly unleashing grayscale in the process. But I like the idea of Jon having a Dany like rebirth in the fire also. 

The Shireen sacrifice will mean nothing if Stannis doesn't do/authorize it. People only trick themselves into believing that Shireen's death might be connected to Jon because the show fooled them about the time line. In the books there has been, at this point at least, no buildup for a Shireen sacrifice. And considering that Stannis is supposed to be dead killing Shireen right now would be basically the worst thing Melisandre or anyone could do for their cause.

Not to mention that nobody really cares about Jon enough to want to resurrect him. And the idea people are tossing around that Mel is for some reason going to burn Shireen to resurrect a Stannis half a world away who might not even be dead is, in my opinion, preposterous. That's grasping for straws to save the idea that Shireen's death and Jon's resurrection are somehow linked.

A resurrection in fire is very likely, though, considering a funeral conducted by Mel - which would be necessary if the plot had her administer the fiery kiss the Thoros way - would likely be cremation. So we likely are going to get Jon's funeral pyre, a sermon by Melisandre to whoever is assembled there, and then a shocking twist when the kiss that is supposed to send him on his way is actually going to resurrect him. Or at least his body. I expect Jon to be a second Drogo up until the point he is reunited with his spirit.

A time line strictly covering Jon related issues could go like this:

1. Jon-Ghost running rampant and killing a bunch of people, some of them actually Marsh allies (who may have been sent to kill Ghost while Marsh and the others killed Jon) before fleeing Castle Black and disappearing in the wild.

2. The settling of the pre-assassination issues at CB.

3. Jon's funeral as described above. Mel's kiss resurrects his body.

4. Enter Borroq. He and Mel go look for Jon-Ghost (possible crucial role of the boar). Mel's strange power over Ghost allows her convince him to go with them.

5. They figure out how to reunite body and spirit. Ghost is sacrificed.

16 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I personally don't think he has died. I think there's part of the answer in Dany VIII, AGoT 64, and what she sees inside the tent during MMD's blood magic ritual.

She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flame.

Dany didn't just see a wolf. She saw a great wolf, which I've interpreted as being a direwolf.

And we have Mel who tells us in her own chapter that she is more stronger at the Wall;

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers. (Mel I, ADwD 31)

Melisandre's powers and fire magic is powered by the magic of the Wall and the old gods.

Whatever Jon is going to go through, it will have nothing to do with Beric or Lady Stoneheart or the wights raised by the Others or Coldhands.

Between the possible warging into Ghost and the magic, a blend of ice and fire, that will be used, it's going to be very much it's own thing, I think. 

That seems to overly complicate things. We do have an established way how people can be resurrected. If you have resurrections in your story and you seem to truly kill an important character, then the way out of that conundrum is not 'magical healing of some unspecified kind' it is another iteration of the resurrection magic thing.

Mel's powers certainly might influence Jon's resurrection in some way considering it is likely not R'hllor but rather just a spell which brings the dead back. That could transform Jon into a creature much closer to Melisandre herself - who is imbued with fire - to set him up for his eventual role as fighter against the Others. If he doesn't get some serious magical mojo he won't be of much use in that department. And his dragon is still a world away, so he should get some other gimmicks to pass the time.

But, honestly, the important part about Mel's strength should be other things. More shadow assassins. More assassinations. More powerful spells to accomplish her goals. If Bowen Marsh is going to fail, Melisandre of Asshai is likely going to be the person to bring him down - possibly quite literally. For that she might not even need real magic, considering she has that powder that apparently kills instantly.

9 minutes ago, divica said:

If you remember the text the NW is becoming very fond of burning their dead. There are several examples of this happening beyhond the Wall. Honestly, I am not sure how they handle their dead after wights attacked the lord comander south of the Wall. But I don t think you can just assume it is the same way as they handled it before… As you can see in the next quote jon thinks he needs to burn the corpses he brought with him south of the Wall.

Beyond the Wall, sure ... south of the Wall? No.

But as I said, I'm fine with Mel likely conducting Jon's funeral as a cremation. I think that will happen. What I doubt is that this is going to/has to happen immediately after the assassination. With there being ways to preserve corpses indefinitely there is simply no reason to insist it has to happen fast.

9 minutes ago, divica said:

And whatever happens no war or conflict has no pauses… They will surely have 10 minutes to burn a corpse that might get wightfied at any moment or because he deserves a proprer burial… People don t let corpses around… It just doesn t happen...

I told you how it did happen. With the corpses Jon himself commanded to preserve.

9 minutes ago, divica said:

Then you are forgeting that almost all the wildlings present know that when a warg dies he goes into his animal. We had orell's example. It is almost comon knowledge… There is no need for a skinchanger to recognize he is there… Then I think that ghost/jon first instict is to go to where his body is and then seek revenge against his killers… It is what makes sense… why would he run?

Because he was killed by his friends? Because he doesn't understand what has happened to him? Because he is more animal than human now?

The wildlings do know some things about skinchangers, but they are not all expert on that - and most of them are actually likely to give the Watch and Jon's corpse a big 'FUCK YOU!' leaving the Wall. They made a promise to Jon Snow, and with him dead they are no longer bound by oath. If Marsh fails to blackmail them with the hostages - which he may or may not control after the assassination - they are likely going to abandon the gang at the Wall. After all, they have crossed it now, and they never were eager or keen to fight the Others. That's why they migrated south in the first place.

9 minutes ago, divica said:

Another important thing to take into account is that mel knew she would need to save jon and there are thousands of wildlings around that can track ghost if needed. I doubt she doesn t have some sort of plan to rescue him already...

I doubt she foresaw what did happen. She may figure out eventually that Jon would come back to life but only after she learns more about skinchangers and the power of the kiss that is going to bring Jon's body back to life.

9 minutes ago, divica said:

Then asoiaf isn t got. An army of several thousands wildlings doesn t attack the Wall without anyone knowing. The conflict in the NW will be solved extremelly fast. Either the wildlings will kill most NW brothers (they outnumber them by a huge margin and some of the NW men must still be loyal to jon) or the NW had a plan to deal with the wildlings and the conflict will end equally fast.

Ah, it is not that easy. Jon sent most of the wildlings already to other castles. They are not all at CB. And those in the Shieldhall may not have witnessed or understood what had transpired when Jon got killed. More importantly, we don't know how much support Marsh has in the Watch or how much support he can marshal. The NW men are all trained to fight - the wildlings are not all fighters and those who have weapons do not exactly have good weapons. If Marsh had a proper plan, then Tormund and his gang might suffer their own little Red Wedding, being butchered under circumstances where they did not expect to be attacked. I mean, it took Cat some time to figure out that there was a coordinated attack on them at the Twins, and she never learned what transpired outside. Jon may have died ignorant, too.

Also, it is a given that the other castles of the Watch - Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower - will side with their brothers against the wildlings, never mind what Marsh did (assuming they ever learn what actually transpired.

The Weeper is about to make his move throughout ADwD. He is likely to attack pretty soon - not CB but the Shadow Tower via the Bridge of Skulls.

9 minutes ago, divica said:

And equally important is that everybody that can save jon knows how dangerous is to be inside an animal for too long. So why would they let jon stay inside ghost for weeks? No reason at all...

Perhaps because they have other things to do? Or because they cannot find him? Or because they don't know how to get him out of Ghost?

9 minutes ago, divica said:

In reagards to varamyr, it is used to show what happens when a skinchanger dies (or maybe is close to dying (not remember if he has to be dead in order to warg)). However, we can see with bran how fast he loses himself inside summer. We know jon can t spend weeks inside ghost… Bran spent hours inside summmer and was already losing himself… 

Exactly. Which is why I think Jon is most definitely going to be less than human when he returns. He'll be half-Summer, for the time being, eating raw meat, rejecting clothing, sleeping on the floor, enjoying to kill people with his own hands/teeth (or at least the memories of such things), etc. It should be a process for him to rediscover his humanity. It won't just fall into his lap.

9 minutes ago, divica said:

Given that we have no idea if jon even died why do you think he wont be a pov?

Well, of course only if he died. Which I'm pretty sure he did.

9 minutes ago, divica said:

And mel had 1 pov. We have no idea how grrm feels about her pov… What we know for sure is that we needed another pov to make people believe jon might die and that we would need another pov to understand what happens once jon is out/dead and how he comes back to life (if he is dead)

The chapter is called 'Melisandre' - no weirdo title. She is a proper POV now.

[Jô Maltese]

About Jon's death and transformation, I started a thread a long time ago:

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No evidence for that in the books. And we don't know whether the wildlings will be in charge of Jon's funeral.

There is no precedence for that, sure, but it would be rather easy if Jon's corpse were just resurrected and he then automatically was shoved back into that body. Varamyr indicates that a skinchanger loses his ability when he takes possession of a non-skinchanger (like Thistle), so a skinchanger stuck in his second life in his animal should be trapped there. The skinchanger is the human, not the animal. Once the human body is dead, the skinchanger is *dead*, too, in the sense that he is trapped in the animal he can jump to.

It should not be easy for Jon to get out of there.

The Shireen sacrifice will mean nothing if Stannis doesn't do/authorize it. People only trick themselves into believing that Shireen's death might be connected to Jon because the show fooled them about the time line. In the books there has been, at this point at least, no buildup for a Shireen sacrifice. And considering that Stannis is supposed to be dead killing Shireen right now would be basically the worst thing Melisandre or anyone could do for their cause.

Not to mention that nobody really cares about Jon enough to want to resurrect him. And the idea people are tossing around that Mel is for some reason going to burn Shireen to resurrect a Stannis half a world away who might not even be dead is, in my opinion, preposterous. That's grasping for straws to save the idea that Shireen's death and Jon's resurrection are somehow linked.

A resurrection in fire is very likely, though, considering a funeral conducted by Mel - which would be necessary if the plot had her administer the fiery kiss the Thoros way - would likely be cremation. So we likely are going to get Jon's funeral pyre, a sermon by Melisandre to whoever is assembled there, and then a shocking twist when the kiss that is supposed to send him on his way is actually going to resurrect him. Or at least his body. I expect Jon to be a second Drogo up until the point he is reunited with his spirit.

A time line strictly covering Jon related issues could go like this:

1. Jon-Ghost running rampant and killing a bunch of people, some of them actually Marsh allies (who may have been sent to kill Ghost while Marsh and the others killed Jon) before fleeing Castle Black and disappearing in the wild.

2. The settling of the pre-assassination issues at CB.

3. Jon's funeral as described above. Mel's kiss resurrects his body.

4. Enter Borroq. He and Mel go look for Jon-Ghost (possible crucial role of the boar). Mel's strange power over Ghost allows her convince him to go with them.

5. They figure out how to reunite body and spirit. Ghost is sacrificed.

That seems to overly complicate things. We do have an established way how people can be resurrected. If you have resurrections in your story and you seem to truly kill an important character, then the way out of that conundrum is not 'magical healing of some unspecified kind' it is another iteration of the resurrection magic thing.

Mel's powers certainly might influence Jon's resurrection in some way considering it is likely not R'hllor but rather just a spell which brings the dead back. That could transform Jon into a creature much closer to Melisandre herself - who is imbued with fire - to set him up for his eventual role as fighter against the Others. If he doesn't get some serious magical mojo he won't be of much use in that department. And his dragon is still a world away, so he should get some other gimmicks to pass the time.

But, honestly, the important part about Mel's strength should be other things. More shadow assassins. More assassinations. More powerful spells to accomplish her goals. If Bowen Marsh is going to fail, Melisandre of Asshai is likely going to be the person to bring him down - possibly quite literally. For that she might not even need real magic, considering she has that powder that apparently kills instantly.

Beyond the Wall, sure ... south of the Wall? No.

But as I said, I'm fine with Mel likely conducting Jon's funeral as a cremation. I think that will happen. What I doubt is that this is going to/has to happen immediately after the assassination. With there being ways to preserve corpses indefinitely there is simply no reason to insist it has to happen fast.

I told you how it did happen. With the corpses Jon himself commanded to preserve.

Because he was killed by his friends? Because he doesn't understand what has happened to him? Because he is more animal than human now?

The wildlings do know some things about skinchangers, but they are not all expert on that - and most of them are actually likely to give the Watch and Jon's corpse a big 'FUCK YOU!' leaving the Wall. They made a promise to Jon Snow, and with him dead they are no longer bound by oath. If Marsh fails to blackmail them with the hostages - which he may or may not control after the assassination - they are likely going to abandon the gang at the Wall. After all, they have crossed it now, and they never were eager or keen to fight the Others. That's why they migrated south in the first place.

I doubt she foresaw what did happen. She may figure out eventually that Jon would come back to life but only after she learns more about skinchangers and the power of the kiss that is going to bring Jon's body back to life.

Ah, it is not that easy. Jon sent most of the wildlings already to other castles. They are not all at CB. And those in the Shieldhall may not have witnessed or understood what had transpired when Jon got killed. More importantly, we don't know how much support Marsh has in the Watch or how much support he can marshal. The NW men are all trained to fight - the wildlings are not all fighters and those who have weapons do not exactly have good weapons. If Marsh had a proper plan, then Tormund and his gang might suffer their own little Red Wedding, being butchered under circumstances where they did not expect to be attacked. I mean, it took Cat some time to figure out that there was a coordinated attack on them at the Twins, and she never learned what transpired outside. Jon may have died ignorant, too.

Also, it is a given that the other castles of the Watch - Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower - will side with their brothers against the wildlings, never mind what Marsh did (assuming they ever learn what actually transpired.

The Weeper is about to make his move throughout ADwD. He is likely to attack pretty soon - not CB but the Shadow Tower via the Bridge of Skulls.

Perhaps because they have other things to do? Or because they cannot find him? Or because they don't know how to get him out of Ghost?

Exactly. Which is why I think Jon is most definitely going to be less than human when he returns. He'll be half-Summer, for the time being, eating raw meat, rejecting clothing, sleeping on the floor, enjoying to kill people with his own hands/teeth (or at least the memories of such things), etc. It should be a process for him to rediscover his humanity. It won't just fall into his lap.

Well, of course only if he died. Which I'm pretty sure he did.

The chapter is called 'Melisandre' - no weirdo title. She is a proper POV now.

There is definitely evidence. Every single person present at the Wall knows about the others & knows the dead need to be burned in order to not reanimate. I cannot think of one good reason they wouldn't want to burn his body - whether or not that will happen is yet to be seen. He could be resurrected prior to being burned. 

I agree it would be difficult for Jon to get out of Ghost once he is dead what I disagree with is that killing Ghost would release Jon back into his own body. I think killing Ghost would be killing Jon for good. 

I don't think I've tricked myself into believing anything nor do I think Stannis's permission changes much in the way of sacrificing Shireen. That theory has been around since way before the show so I don't think it has anything to do with that. I'm not convinced it will happen but it's plausible & would fit - Selyse is pretty indifferent to her daughter & is a religious extremist. Mel is hell bent on burning people, particularly people with Kings Blood & would likely believe she needed a strong sacrifice to resurrect Jon. Not to mention she wouldn't be worried about Stannis's repercussions because he is supposedly dead. 

 

I think Mel is at the wall for that specific reason. Whether it's her R'hllor or whoever else sending her the visions in the flame they have led her straight to Jon - she just hasn't fully realized it yet. Her sole purpose is to resurrect Jon. 

I understand there are ways to preserve corpses but what reason would they have to do so? Jon had a reason for preserving those corpses, he wanted to see if they could learn anything from them. I suppose they could decide they want to do the same thing with Jon but why? There have been any number of dead people at the wall to do that with if they wished & it hasn't been done since then. I don't see any reason for Jon's funeral to be delayed unless there is a battle of some sort going on at the wall (& there definitely could be) but I doubt anyone is going to stop in the middle of it to make sure Jon gets put in the ice cells. I suppose it could happen but I don't see it.

[divica]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No evidence for that in the books. And we don't know whether the wildlings will be in charge of Jon's funeral.

Yes there is. Jon is burning all the dead in ADwD. I even showed you a quote where he think he will have to burn the corpses he brought south of the wall…

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Beyond the Wall, sure ... south of the Wall? No.

But as I said, I'm fine with Mel likely conducting Jon's funeral as a cremation. I think that will happen. What I doubt is that this is going to/has to happen immediately after the assassination. With there being ways to preserve corpses indefinitely there is simply no reason to insist it has to happen fast.

Yes, jon wants to burn corpses south of the Wall. I showed you the quote...

And normal people don t preserve corpses. They give them their funeral rites… And in this case the logical one is to burn jon because he has been burning all the corpses in the last book. And if people don t want for jon to become a wight they should do it fast. There is no logical reason to put a corpse in a freezer and burn it in a couple of weeks… NOBODY does that!

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I told you how it did happen. With the corpses Jon himself commanded to preserve.

You are mixing things. Jon comanded those corpses perseverd and in cells because he wants them to become wights. It doesn t apply here because given that jon was the LC, saved several thousand wildlings and was ned's bastard a lot of people present would want to treat his corpse with respect...

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because he was killed by his friends? Because he doesn't understand what has happened to him? Because he is more animal than human now?

The wildlings do know some things about skinchangers, but they are not all expert on that - and most of them are actually likely to give the Watch and Jon's corpse a big 'FUCK YOU!' leaving the Wall. They made a promise to Jon Snow, and with him dead they are no longer bound by oath. If Marsh fails to blackmail them with the hostages - which he may or may not control after the assassination - they are likely going to abandon the gang at the Wall. After all, they have crossed it now, and they never were eager or keen to fight the Others. That's why they migrated south in the first place.

what friends? He was killed by members of the NW that disliked him. If he goes into the wolf the natural response for both man and wolf is to attack the 4 NW brothers that tried to kill him. However do you know why ghost won t run away? Because jon has him locked in his chambers...

And we are talking about the wildlings that just agreed to march into winterfell for jon. And after 5 min he is betrayed by the NW and you think they wont seek revenge? And this doesn t even include the fact that some members of the NW are still loyal to jon and would want to attack the men that tried to kill him. Your scenario makes no sense...

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I doubt she foresaw what did happen. She may figure out eventually that Jon would come back to life but only after she learns more about skinchangers and the power of the kiss that is going to bring Jon's body back to life.

You do remember that mel literally told jon that she was his only chance of survival after the pink letter arrives right? She has seen it in her fires… And you remember that one of the first things that mel did when she arrived at the Wall was burn orell's eagle? She knows about skinchangers… I think she even tells jon he should learn to control his gift… 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, it is not that easy. Jon sent most of the wildlings already to other castles. They are not all at CB. And those in the Shieldhall may not have witnessed or understood what had transpired when Jon got killed. More importantly, we don't know how much support Marsh has in the Watch or how much support he can marshal. The NW men are all trained to fight - the wildlings are not all fighters and those who have weapons do not exactly have good weapons. If Marsh had a proper plan, then Tormund and his gang might suffer their own little Red Wedding, being butchered under circumstances where they did not expect to be attacked. I mean, it took Cat some time to figure out that there was a coordinated attack on them at the Twins, and she never learned what transpired outside. Jon may have died ignorant, too.

Also, it is a given that the other castles of the Watch - Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower - will side with their brothers against the wildlings, never mind what Marsh did (assuming they ever learn what actually transpired.

The Weeper is about to make his move throughout ADwD. He is likely to attack pretty soon - not CB but the Shadow Tower via the Bridge of Skulls.

Whatever the weeper is doing at the bidge of skulls it wont affet the near future of CB. We have no idea if marsh can control the NW in CB. And there are much more wildlings there than NW brothers. In adition, most of the people against jon are men not used to fight. And with a giant and several people starting to fight and scream I don t think the wildlings inside the shieldhall won t listen… 

But the important part is that we won t have a conflict that will last weeks. Like the red wedding it will be a fast affair. There is no reason to keep jon's body frozen for an indefinite amount of time…

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps because they have other things to do? Or because they cannot find him? Or because they don't know how to get him out of Ghost?

After the confict with bowen is handled what is more important that ressurecting jon if he is dead? 

ghost is locked in a chamber, there is no reason to believe he will run away. And if his body is revived then he can get back to his body like all skinchangers do… You are once again providing evidence that his body can t stay dead a lot of time because he has to remember to get back...

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Exactly. Which is why I think Jon is most definitely going to be less than human when he returns. He'll be half-Summer, for the time being, eating raw meat, rejecting clothing, sleeping on the floor, enjoying to kill people with his own hands/teeth (or at least the memories of such things), etc. It should be a process for him to rediscover his humanity. It won't just fall into his lap.

Do you really think jon will be half animal? One thing is to have animal instincts, another is animal behaviour… Honestly, I think once again you are giving evidence why he wont stay a lot of time in ghost. Nobody would care to read about jon in that state and rickon is already covering that angle.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, of course only if he died. Which I'm pretty sure he did

Actually logic almost tells us he didn t. Unless the cut to his neck is very deep jon would take hours to die from his wounds. I wouldn t find it strange if he wargs into ghost because of the shock of the wounds while either val or mel try to heal him...