divica Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I agree it would be difficult for Jon to get out of Ghost once he is dead what I disagree with is that killing Ghost would release Jon back into his own body. I think killing Ghost would be killing Jon for good. I don't think I've tricked myself into believing anything nor do I think Stannis's permission changes much in the way of sacrificing Shireen. That theory has been around since way before the show so I don't think it has anything to do with that. I'm not convinced it will happen but it's plausible & would fit - Selyse is pretty indifferent to her daughter & is a religious extremist. Mel is hell bent on burning people, particularly people with Kings Blood & would likely believe she needed a strong sacrifice to resurrect Jon. Not to mention she wouldn't be worried about Stannis's repercussions because he is supposedly dead. As long as someone revives jon's body then jon geting out of ghost would be a normal warging experience. He just has to remember how to do it. This isn t annything new… Just evidence that he should stay inside ghost a lot of time... And mel doesn t need to sacrífice shireen in order to have kings blood. Quote Someone had already told the Thunderfist about Gerrick Kingsblood and his new style. "King o' the Wildlings?" Tormund roared. "Har! King o' My Hairy Butt Crack, more like." "He has a regal look to him," Jon said. I don t foresee a long life for this dude that is saying he is a king… I think he has a meeting with a bonfire… And if he has a son I would be even more sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 32 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I agree it would be difficult for Jon to get out of Ghost once he is dead what I disagree with is that killing Ghost would release Jon back into his own body. I think killing Ghost would be killing Jon for good. Could also be. But why drag on the direwolf forever? Jon Snow is a Targaryen, is he not? He is going to ride a dragon in the future. He doesn't need his wolf forever. Grey Wind is dead, Lady is dead, Ghost can die, too. Also, the idea to cut a soul or spirit literally out of a living creature is not exactly an unknown concept in horror or fantasy literature. It would be awfully convenient if Jon could cheat death without sacrificing something himself. 32 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I don't think I've tricked myself into believing anything nor do I think Stannis's permission changes much in the way of sacrificing Shireen. That theory has been around since way before the show so I don't think it has anything to do with that. I'm not convinced it will happen but it's plausible & would fit - Selyse is pretty indifferent to her daughter & is a religious extremist. Mel is hell bent on burning people, particularly people with Kings Blood & would likely believe she needed a strong sacrifice to resurrect Jon. Not to mention she wouldn't be worried about Stannis's repercussions because he is supposedly dead. Sure, the theory as such is very old, but the books still didn't build it up. And it is quite clear that this is about Stannis and Shireen, not Shireen or Melisandre/Selyse. And Selyse is in no way indifferent towards her daughter - she is the parent doting on her, spending time with her, caring for her. Stannis has never interacted with his daughter in the entire series. Also, there is the ominous fact that Melisandre actually fears Patchface. Which means that there is something brewing there which will come to fore while Shireen and her fool are still around, possibly connected to Shireen's greyscale. What Patches is and does is also completely unclear at this point. Like Hodor, he is not just weirdo with mental problems. Melisandre is not all about burning people. She is actually rather nice to Devan and Davos in her chapter, indicating that she is not exactly keep to burn people left and right - and most definitely not Stannis' daughter. And she most definitely will have neither a reason nor any motivation to magically resurrect Jon Snow. Why should she do that? Jon is just a pawn to exploit, not something she particularly cares about. He is a tool, and now that he is broken she is going to move on to another tool. Her views might change after Jon's comes (accidentally) back to life, but at this point there is no indication whatsoever that she is a Jon fan girl. Also, the fact that Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai in her mind she is never going to believe he is dead. She is a religious fanatic and knows the truth. She has found her savior and she is not going to change her mind on that one just because some dude wrote a letter. If Mel wanted to sacrifice people with king's blood to work some spell she would turn to Mance's son - who she believes is still at the Wall -, to Gerrick Kingsblood and his three daughters, and to Axell Florent, who is descended from the Gardener kings of old. In fact, she would even turn to Jon Snow himself, who is Robb Stark's half-brother and a descendant of the Stark kings of old. All those people would burn before Mel would turn to Selyse or Shireen. 32 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I think Mel is at the wall for that specific reason. Whether it's her R'hllor or whoever else sending her the visions in the flame they have led her straight to Jon - she just hasn't fully realized it yet. Her sole purpose is to resurrect Jon. That is not very likely. Especially since there is actually no evidence at this point that blood sacrifices and spells Melisandre can work actually can resurrect people. Yes, there is the 'only death can pay for life' talk, but we don't know whether Drogo was dead when Mirri worked her spell. It might be that this phrase only means that blood magic can save people who are about to die rather than resurrect dead guys - the latter has, at this point, only happened the Beric and Catelyn way. Why do people want to believe there has to be a blood sacrifice to resurrect Jon if there is a non-bloody way to bring it about? Nobody had to die to bring back Beric Dondarrion or Catelyn Stark. 32 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I understand there are ways to preserve corpses but what reason would they have to do so? Jon had a reason for preserving those corpses, he wanted to see if they could learn anything from them. I suppose they could decide they want to do the same thing with Jon but why? There have been any number of dead people at the wall to do that with if they wished & it hasn't been done since then. I don't see any reason for Jon's funeral to be delayed unless there is a battle of some sort going on at the wall (& there definitely could be) but I doubt anyone is going to stop in the middle of it to make sure Jon gets put in the ice cells. I suppose it could happen but I don't see it. They could have a number of reasons to postpone a funeral - perhaps Stannis wants to pay Jon his respects, perhaps they have other things to do, perhaps they don't control Castle Black/the body, etc. But I don't have that much of an issue with Jon being resurrect, say, a fortnight after his death or so - corpses are washed and cleaned and prepared for a funeral, etc., especially if they are going to get some sort of public funeral, which is likely going to be the case with Jon (assuming the situation at the Wall is going to be resolved quickly, which I don't know) - I think the bigger issue is getting Jon's spirit back into his resurrected/undead body. I think Coldhands is essentially Jon 0.0. He, I think, is a skinchanger who was killed and turned into a wight. Somehow he (or rather: Bloodraven or some other greenseer/the Children) figured out how to break the magical control over the Coldhands wight. Coldhands lacks the blue eyes but has the black hands and feet of the wights - which implies he somehow was able to break their hold over his body. It makes sense that he spent the time before he could return into his wight body in an animal living his second life. Jon's body won't become a wight, most likely, but he will also have to get back into his body somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 55 minutes ago, divica said: As long as someone revives jon's body then jon geting out of ghost would be a normal warging experience. He just has to remember how to do it. This isn t annything new… Just evidence that he should stay inside ghost a lot of time... And mel doesn t need to sacrífice shireen in order to have kings blood. I don t foresee a long life for this dude that is saying he is a king… I think he has a meeting with a bonfire… And if he has a son I would be even more sure... Oh I agree. I was just saying I didn't think killing Ghost would be a plausible way to get Jon back into his own body. I'm not sold on the burning of Shireen either, just saying it could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Could also be. But why drag on the direwolf forever? Jon Snow is a Targaryen, is he not? He is going to ride a dragon in the future. He doesn't need his wolf forever. Grey Wind is dead, Lady is dead, Ghost can die, too. Also, the idea to cut a soul or spirit literally out of a living creature is not exactly an unknown concept in horror or fantasy literature. It would be awfully convenient if Jon could cheat death without sacrificing something himself If Jon is dead & warged into Ghost, Jon dies. Just like with Varamyr & his mentor. I'm not saying Jon won't have to sacrifice anything. 17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Sure, the theory as such is very old, but the books still didn't build it up. And it is quite clear that this is about Stannis and Shireen, not Shireen or Melisandre/Selyse. And Selyse is in no way indifferent towards her daughter - she is the parent doting on her, spending time with her, caring for her. Stannis has never interacted with his daughter in the entire series. If the theory is older than the show, it can't have come from people tricking themselves into thinking it because of something the show did. It's clear what is about Shireen & Stannis? It's been a while since I read them so maybe I'm just forgetting Selyse doted on her. I don't recall that. 20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Melisandre is not all about burning people. She is actually rather nice to Devan and Davos in her chapter, indicating that she is not exactly keep to burn people left and right - and most definitely not Stannis' daughter. And she most definitely will have neither a reason nor any motivation to magically resurrect Jon Snow. Why should she do that? Jon is just a pawn to exploit, not something she particularly cares about. He is a tool, and now that he is broken she is going to move on to another tool. Her views might change after Jon's comes (accidentally) back to life, but at this point there is no indication whatsoever that she is a Jon fan girl I didn't say she was all about burning people (which is arguable to say the least) but that she is hell bent on burning someone with Kings Blood. Since you bring it up though she is pretty much all about burning people. She pays more attention to Jon than almost anyone else at the wall barring Stannis. She is clearly trying to help him as was quoted above. "Jon fan girl" are your words, not mine. I don't view her as a fan girl but don't think her believing he is important, wanting to help him, &/or resurrecting him equal being a fan girl. 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Also, the fact that Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai in her mind she is never going to believe he is dead. She is a religious fanatic and knows the truth. She has found her savior and she is not going to change her mind on that one just because some dude wrote a letter. I agree here, kind of. I do think she would probably want proof that Stannis is dead but I don't think she will never believe Stan isn't AA. I think she will figure it out. 26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: If Mel wanted to sacrifice people with king's blood to work some spell she would turn to Mance's son - who she believes is still at the Wall -, to Gerrick Kingsblood and his three daughters, and to Axell Florent, who is descended from the Gardener kings of old. In fact, she would even turn to Jon Snow himself, who is Robb Stark's half-brother and a descendant of the Stark kings of old. All those people would burn before Mel would turn to Selyse or Shireen What do you mean IF she wanted to burn someone with Kings Blood? She has tried. It's the very reason Mance's son was sent away from the wall - because Jon was fearful she would try to burn him for his Kings Blood. I think it's plausible that if she was in need of Kings Blood she would turn to Shireen once she figured out Mance's son isn't there. All she would have to do is convince Selyse that Jon is AA & she would go for it. Of course I've been wrong before. I don't think the other people are candidates or they would have been talked about being potential candidates like Mance's son & Maester Aemon. Jon wouldn't fit the bill because he would be the one needing to be resurrected & there seems to be some need to be more closely related to a King than Jon is - that or Mel completely overlooks all these other candidates when she is wanting to burn Edric. 31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That is not very likely. Especially since there is actually no evidence at this point that blood sacrifices and spells Melisandre can work actually can resurrect people. Yes, there is the 'only death can pay for life' talk, but we don't know whether Drogo was dead when Mirri worked her spell. It might be that this phrase only means that blood magic can save people who are about to die rather than resurrect dead guys - the latter has, at this point, only happened the Beric and Catelyn way. Why do people want to believe there has to be a blood sacrifice to resurrect Jon if there is a non-bloody way to bring it about? Nobody had to die to bring back Beric Dondarrion or Catelyn Stark No there is no evidence that Mel can resurrect someone but there is evidence her spells work. If burning people didn't ever produce results Stan would not let her keep burning people. The reason people think there needs to be a sacrifice is because Mel thinks there needs to be a sacrifice for her spells, one of Kings Blood being the most potent. She hasn't indicated she knows anything about Thoros & his kiss so why would you think that is the method she would choose? 34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: They could have a number of reasons to postpone a funeral - perhaps Stannis wants to pay Jon his respects, perhaps they have other things to do, perhaps they don't control Castle Black/the body, etc. It isn't as if they are going to write Stannis & wait for his reply before having the funeral. Other things to do like what? "Nope, can't have Jon's funeral today, gotta wash my hair"? There just isn't anything pointing to anyone wanting to delay the funeral. The only plausible explanation I can think of being that a battle breaks out & it is chaos & Jon is momentarily forgotten. But even then it would have to be resolved fairly quickly or Jon would turn. There would be no reason for them to put him in the ice cells in-between him dying & said battle breaking out. We will just have to agree to disagree here. 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Lord Varys Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 1 hour ago, divica said: As long as someone revives jon's body then jon geting out of ghost would be a normal warging experience. He just has to remember how to do it. This isn t annything new… Just evidence that he should stay inside ghost a lot of time... This doesn't really convince me. I think that skinchangers are only skinchangers while they live their first life. True death ends that. Else One Eye-Varamyr could just try to take over other animals and/or humans, no? Apparently you use that ability when you live your second life, both in an animal and in a new human body - as Varamyr thought he would after taking over Thistle. He did not think he could live forever by jumping from body to body to body... But even if the link between a skinchanger animal and his resurrected human body would be automatically reestablished, we would still have the problem to consider that Jon has no clue how to be a skinchanger. He doesn't control his abilities, he doesn't even know how to use them. His rapport with Ghost was always completely unconscious. Would he truly find his way back from Ghost into his own body? I've problems believing that. Also, I see no reason to imagine or fantasize about ways how Jon could be restored to his old self as quickly as possible. If George wanted Jon in control of himself and the things around him he could have decided NOT TO KILL HIM. But he did kill him. And even if were to buy the idea that Jon isn't that, then he is most definitely grievously injured which would also put him out of action for quite some time. All that implies to me that we are to better accustom ourselves to the thought that Jon is supposed to be out of the game - and forever changed in no small degree - in the next book. 1 hour ago, divica said: And mel doesn t need to sacrífice shireen in order to have kings blood. I don t foresee a long life for this dude that is saying he is a king… I think he has a meeting with a bonfire… And if he has a son I would be even more sure... As I said, she has Gerrick, Gerrick's three daughters, Mance's fake son (which she doesn't know is his fake son), Axell Florent, and Jon Snow himself. All these would bleed and burn long before Mel turns against Stannis' family. In fact, she might even sacrifice herself before turning against Stannis' blood. I actually expect Stannis to suggest the Shireen sacrifice himself, remembering the Edric thing and Azor Ahai's Nissa Nissa. 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: If Jon is dead & warged into Ghost, Jon dies. Just like with Varamyr & his mentor. I'm not saying Jon won't have to sacrifice anything. I just mean that Jon as the guy being resurrected should also sacrifice something substantial. Shireen, for instance, would be nothing to Jon. Dany also didn't get three dragons just because she burned Mirri... 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: If the theory is older than the show, it can't have come from people tricking themselves into thinking it because of something the show did. Oh, just the part about Mel burning Shireen to (inadvertently or intentionally) resurrecting Jon. That's nonsense. The idea that Mel is going to burn in accordance with Stannis' wishes and decision would be separate from that. 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: It's been a while since I read them so maybe I'm just forgetting Selyse doted on her. I don't recall that. 'Dote' might be too strong a word. But she is the parent spending time with Shireen. She was with her on Dragonstone the entire time, she was with her at Eastwatch, and she is caring for her right now at Castle Black. Stannis never gave a damn about his daughter. She is his legal heir - at least since Renly is dead - but they don't have any relationship nor did Stannis do anything to prepare her for her role as future queen. 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I didn't say she was all about burning people (which is arguable to say the least) but that she is hell bent on burning someone with Kings Blood. Since you bring it up though she is pretty much all about burning people. She pays more attention to Jon than almost anyone else at the wall barring Stannis. She is clearly trying to help him as was quoted above. "Jon fan girl" are your words, not mine. I don't view her as a fan girl but don't think her believing he is important, wanting to help him, &/or resurrecting him equal being a fan girl. From what we can draw from her interactions with Jon and her own POV Jon is just a means to an end. She sees him in the fire and realize he is important, but he is not something she personally cares about. He is something she intends to use for her own ends and Stannis'. She also gives no intention in ADwD to burn anyone. Her POV does not indicate she has even thought about burning Mance's son (which would be silly considering Mance still lives and is her ally) or the Kingsblood family. Jon and Aemon heard stuff about Mel and Stannis and concluded they might eventually burn people again, but there are no immediate plans right now to do that. 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I agree here, kind of. I do think she would probably want proof that Stannis is dead but I don't think she will never believe Stan isn't AA. I think she will figure it out. If she does, then this is not going to happen soon. Because the overall prophecy of Stannis as one of the lies for Dany to slay implies the fact that people believe Stannis is the savior is going to make matters worse, not better. At this point Stannis going north made things much better, so there first has to come a point when things really get bad. I think Stannis will figure out that everything was nonsense after Shireen is dead, but this could also mark the end of Melisandre herself. Because I honestly think Stannis is the one who is going to kill her - and she will never see that coming because she is blinded to any danger coming from Stannis because she truly thinks he is the savior. But that's stuff for later books. 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: What do you mean IF she wanted to burn someone with Kings Blood? She has tried. It's the very reason Mance's son was sent away from the wall - because Jon was fearful she would try to burn him for his Kings Blood. I think it's plausible that if she was in need of Kings Blood she would turn to Shireen once she figured out Mance's son isn't there. All she would have to do is convince Selyse that Jon is AA & she would go for it. Of course I've been wrong before. I don't think the other people are candidates or they would have been talked about being potential candidates like Mance's son & Maester Aemon. Jon wouldn't fit the bill because he would be the one needing to be resurrected & there seems to be some need to be more closely related to a King than Jon is - that or Mel completely overlooks all these other candidates when she is wanting to burn Edric. Edric Storm was just a bastard. And he was of Stannis' own blood, a most potent sacrifice. But other royal blood seems to work pretty well as well - Alester Florent's sacrificed summoned to wind that carried Stannis' fleet to the Wall in time. But of course Mel is no sacrifice machine. She usually has a reason why she thinks a sacrifice is necessary. And there is simply no reason to think that she would ever want to sacrifice Stannis' daughter to bring him back or to bring Jon Snow back. That's just silly. And even if I were wrong there then she would first turn to Gerrick and his daughters or Axell and Selyse. Also, there is no reason to believe that Mel would ever believe a dead guy was the savior - because if he is the savior then he wouldn't be dead. R'hllor wouldn't allow it. Which is the reason why she is most definitely not conclude dead Jon is Azor Ahai nor buy the idea that the real Azor Ahai - Stannis - did die because some enemy of theirs claimed so in a letter. 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: No there is no evidence that Mel can resurrect someone but there is evidence her spells work. If burning people didn't ever produce results Stan would not let her keep burning people. Oh, well, he never actually authorized all that many burnings. Only Alester Florent's, to be exact. The other burnings were done by Selyse and Mel herself while Stannis was fighting the Blackwater. Later Stannis allows executions via burnings for cannibalism. Overall, Stannis believes in Mel because she has certain powers - and, more recently, because he has seen things in the flames himself. 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: The reason people think there needs to be a sacrifice is because Mel thinks there needs to be a sacrifice for her spells, one of Kings Blood being the most potent. She hasn't indicated she knows anything about Thoros & his kiss so why would you think that is the method she would choose? Not for all her spells. For her assassins she just needs potent semen and part of the life force of her sex partner. And those were her only known genuine spells aside from the flame visions - which come and go and don't require sacrifices. The wind I cite above may be another genuine spell but it is unclear. The Edric sacrifice was supposed to achieve a particular goal - waking dragons (apparently the dragon statues on Dragonstone) from stone. Whether this would have worked or not we don't know. As for Thoros' kiss - it is an integral part of the red priest funeral ritual. Mel is going to give Jon the same kiss Thoros gave Beric - with no intention of bringing him back from the dead, just as Thoros never wanted to bring back Beric. But it will work either way. 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: It isn't as if they are going to write Stannis & wait for his reply before having the funeral. Other things to do like what? "Nope, can't have Jon's funeral today, gotta wash my hair"? There just isn't anything pointing to anyone wanting to delay the funeral. The only plausible explanation I can think of being that a battle breaks out & it is chaos & Jon is momentarily forgotten. But even then it would have to be resolved fairly quickly or Jon would turn. There would be no reason for them to put him in the ice cells in-between him dying & said battle breaking out. We will just have to agree to disagree here. Oh, but Stannis could write them shortly after the assassination, no? Giving his account, the true account, of the battle of Winterfell, right? In fact, chances are pretty good that the news about Stannis' victory is going to be what is going to break Marsh's hold over the NW. Because people will only follow him while they buy the tale that Stannis is dead and they have to do everything the Boltons and Lannisters say to preserve the Watch and their lives. Once they learn Stannis lives and has won it will become clear that all the anti-Jon guys will die an unpleasant death - and that could end Marsh's movement. I don't think Marsh has just a handful of people. If this were the case he would have never moved against Jon. The fact that he did implies he had a lot of support, especially after the Pink Letter. But most of those men will abandon him once they realize that Stannis is alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 I'm of the opinion that not only Mel, but Val will also play a role in Jon's "resurrection" (Mel might bring back Jon's body from its wounds and Val bring back Jon's spirit/consciousness from Ghost). Jon was born through the blood of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen), he will also be brought back [reborn] through the rituals of Ice (Val) and Fire (Mel). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 12 hours ago, divica said: This has been discussed time and time again. Nobody keeps a dead body for days/weeks. Much less people on the Wall that know what happens to dead bodies in the north... You're assuming peace and normal operations at the Wall. Political and/or violent chaos is more likely, with Jon dumped in an ice cell until a more convenient time ('Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.') Also, burning is not a trivial exercise. Turning a tree into fuel takes a lot of time and labour, and for some reason the brothers find it necessary to take trees from the north side of the Wall. Fuel is a thousand times more precious now that everyone recognises that winter is coming. So burning may be essential, but almost certainly they will save up bodies and burn them in batches. 12 hours ago, divica said: <snip> I think it is highly unrealistic to expect more than 1 or 2 chaps from ghost's perspective and that hey would span more than a few days... But what would be the point, from the narrative perspective? Nothing changes, except Jon's arc is devoid of tension because he is a plastic superhero doll who bounces back from every deadly attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 18 hours ago, Lord Varys said: I think it is going to be a combination. Jon's spirit will be stuck in Ghost, since as a skinchanger he'll start his second life. Mel will, either accidentally (like Thoros) or intentionally (to give the Jon the opportunity to return to his body) resurrect his body. The problem thereafter should be to get his spirit back into his body. Also, to figure out that he is not completely gone. Borroq should eventually help with that, but one guesses that Jon-Ghost won't be in a good mood or capable of making 'rational decisions' after his death. Another problem likely will be Jon's state of mind. He is not exactly an experienced skinchanger, and if were to be stuck days/weeks in Ghost he is likely going to be much more 'wolfish' upon his return than one would expect. We do know that you slowly but surely lose your human self in your second life, so this is going to become an issue as well. This is almost exactly how things play out in the book Assassin’s Quest and i’ve long believed Jon’s fate wil pretty much follow that. “Second life” in a wolf, returning to his body, having to be gradually “humanised” again. Hell, you even have skinchanging “mentors” with the knowledge to pull this off (Borroq in ASOIAF, Burrich in AQ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 I think, that Jon isn't dead. With first dagger he was just slightly nicked on his neck, no arteries were damaged. Second dagger wounded him the most, the third one hit his back, and there was no fourth one. So Jon was seriously wounded only by second and third daggers, but they missed liver and spine, or any other vital areas. So Jon didn't died, he just warged into Ghost, to escape from pain and shock. He warged into Ghost too deep, and will be unable to get back into his own body for some time. His personality will be changed by that long-warging experience, and he will become more savage, like a wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hedge Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Megorova said: I think, that Jon isn't dead. With first dagger he was just slightly nicked on his neck, no arteries were damaged. Second dagger wounded him the most, the third one hit his back, and there was no fourth one. So Jon was seriously wounded only by second and third daggers, but they missed liver and spine, or any other vital areas. So Jon didn't died, he just warged into Ghost, to escape from pain and shock. He warged into Ghost too deep, and will be unable to get back into his own body for some time. His personality will be changed by that long-warging experience, and he will become more savage, like a wolf. In a Sam chapter at the beginning of AFFC, as other members have pointed out before in similar threads, he sees a shirt of mail outside Jon's chambers. So, hopefully Jon was wearing it and minimised the damage. He may still be severely injured of course, and as you, and others on the thread have pointed out, he may still have warged into Ghost. Perhaps, this was GRRM's way of awakening Jon to his warging ability. If it was, it really is a very nice plot device tying it in with a NW mutiny. I guess there's a good chance many NW conspirators are taken out in the immediate aftermath and if Cotter Pyke's mission also ends disastrously, there may actually be few NW left. Now that a lot of the FF have declared enthusiastically for Jon and with the (attempted) assassination revealing him to be a warg to more of the FF, with Val, Borroq and Morna (as @kissdbyfire reminded us) around to help him control his ability, he is naturally going to be a leader of the FF, who are now the only fighting force between the wall and the WF area (600 miles to the south). Umbers, Karstarks, Mountain Clansmen, Glovers are all in CV or WF. The Battle of Ice and the taking of WF (and maybe taking Torrhen's Square as well, unless Asha can convince Dagmar to not be a tool) can result in the death of a few thousand military age men, which might leave Jon and Wyman Manderley (or his son) as the only two players in the North with any armies of significance. Cannot wait for TWOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 11 hours ago, Lord Varys said: This doesn't really convince me. I think that skinchangers are only skinchangers while they live their first life. True death ends that. Else One Eye-Varamyr could just try to take over other animals and/or humans, no? Apparently you use that ability when you live your second life, both in an animal and in a new human body - as Varamyr thought he would after taking over Thistle. He did not think he could live forever by jumping from body to body to body... But even if the link between a skinchanger animal and his resurrected human body would be automatically reestablished, we would still have the problem to consider that Jon has no clue how to be a skinchanger. He doesn't control his abilities, he doesn't even know how to use them. His rapport with Ghost was always completely unconscious. Would he truly find his way back from Ghost into his own body? I've problems believing that. First, you are mixing diferent concepts. Dying, skinchanging into an animal and then trying to skinchange into another creature is completly diferent that we are talking about. We know that it is impossible. However jon skinchanging back into his own body is how skinchanging works. The only diference is that his body might have been dead for a time. And all skinchangers have to skinchange a first time… jon's just a bit worse than others… It is much more believable that someone will teach jon how to skinchange back into his own body than anything you might sugest without any evidence in the text. And this would imply that jon won t be inside ghost for a lot of time… Just because you don t like it doesn t mean it isn t the more logical option at the moment... And we just have to look at bran's chapters to see that skinchanging isn t that difficult. Hell, if I remember even arya skinchanges without any training… With a bit of direction it is pretty belivable that jon would be able to do it... 11 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Also, I see no reason to imagine or fantasize about ways how Jon could be restored to his old self as quickly as possible. If George wanted Jon in control of himself and the things around him he could have decided NOT TO KILL HIM. But he did kill him. And even if were to buy the idea that Jon isn't that, then he is most definitely grievously injured which would also put him out of action for quite some time. All that implies to me that we are to better accustom ourselves to the thought that Jon is supposed to be out of the game - and forever changed in no small degree - in the next book. Again, you are thinking your personal opinions are facts. When you are completly wrong based on what the text says. We have seen lady stoneheart and beric being revived and completly rational. Even if LS personality is diferent no one thinks of her as mad/crazy… And both this characters are imediatly ready to act... There is no logical reason to not believe that if jon is dead and someone wants to revive him it won t happen pretty fast when we and everybody that is capable of doing it knows that the longer it takes the worse it will be. It is just your personal preference that can t be logically sustained at this point. Even if there is a conflict in CB it would lead to dozens of dead bodies. We have no reason to believe that they won t burn them once there is a pause on the conflict or it is finished... 11 hours ago, Lord Varys said: As I said, she has Gerrick, Gerrick's three daughters, Mance's fake son (which she doesn't know is his fake son), Axell Florent, and Jon Snow himself. All these would bleed and burn long before Mel turns against Stannis' family. In fact, she might even sacrifice herself before turning against Stannis' blood. I actually expect Stannis to suggest the Shireen sacrifice himself, remembering the Edric thing and Azor Ahai's Nissa Nissa. I am pretty sure mel says she knows that the baby isn t mance's son and I don t know if jon counts as having kings blood. Technically his blood comes from ned not robb… However they are brothers so I don t know how it works... 5 hours ago, Springwatch said: You're assuming peace and normal operations at the Wall. Political and/or violent chaos is more likely, with Jon dumped in an ice cell until a more convenient time ('Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.') Also, burning is not a trivial exercise. Turning a tree into fuel takes a lot of time and labour, and for some reason the brothers find it necessary to take trees from the north side of the Wall. Fuel is a thousand times more precious now that everyone recognises that winter is coming. So burning may be essential, but almost certainly they will save up bodies and burn them in batches. But what would be the point, from the narrative perspective? Nothing changes, except Jon's arc is devoid of tension because he is a plastic superhero doll who bounces back from every deadly attack. Again, there are several dead bodies in ADwD and jon orders them all burned (with the exception of the bodies he want to become wights). And any violent conflict will be solved within hours and create several dozen of dead bodies that people will want to burn as soon as possible as they have beeen doing. If there is a political conflict certainly people will dispose of the dead bodies… No one keeps dead bodies for a long time because it is inconvenient to dispose of them… It just doesn t happen…. How is at least jon learning to warg and learning about betrayals from people he trusts nothing changing? Does anyone think jon won t have trust issues? That he hasn t learned that he can t keep people that hate his decisions in power? Just because these events might not have the effects you are waiting for doesn t mean that they won t have consequences. Asoiaf isn t got! This will affect jon! The question is how… And neither you nor I can know that for sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 13 hours ago, divica said: Yes there is. Jon is burning all the dead in ADwD. I even showed you a quote where he think he will have to burn the corpses he brought south of the wall… Yes, jon wants to burn corpses south of the Wall. I showed you the quote... You didn't show the quote, but burning some corpses wouldn't be the same as a proper funeral. Jon was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, his corpse wouldn't just be treated as something to get rid of because people feared it might raise as a wight. In fact, pretty much nobody south of the Wall fears that stuff like that might happen. 13 hours ago, divica said: You are mixing things. Jon comanded those corpses perseverd and in cells because he wants them to become wights. It doesn t apply here because given that jon was the LC, saved several thousand wildlings and was ned's bastard a lot of people present would want to treat his corpse with respect... Yeah, and that might be the reason why they might dump his corpse in such an ice cell, too, to give him a proper funeral when there is time. 13 hours ago, divica said: what friends? He was killed by members of the NW that disliked him. If he goes into the wolf the natural response for both man and wolf is to attack the 4 NW brothers that tried to kill him. However do you know why ghost won t run away? Because jon has him locked in his chambers... Because Jon doesn't really understand what's happening when he dies. He does not understand why he is killed. And she certainly thinks the men killing him where men he could trust, men who would not kill him. 13 hours ago, divica said: And we are talking about the wildlings that just agreed to march into winterfell for jon. And after 5 min he is betrayed by the NW and you think they wont seek revenge? And this doesn t even include the fact that some members of the NW are still loyal to jon and would want to attack the men that tried to kill him. Your scenario makes no sense... Jon was the glue that kept them together. They made a promise to him. Perhaps some might try to avenge him, others might just think 'bugger this kneeler who helped to bring down Mance'. Even if they avenged him, they should break down into small groups again - and those at other castles already are such small groups already - with no clear leader or purpose. These people are, after all, fiercely independent. They are not yes-men. 13 hours ago, divica said: You do remember that mel literally told jon that she was his only chance of survival after the pink letter arrives right? She has seen it in her fires… And you remember that one of the first things that mel did when she arrived at the Wall was burn orell's eagle? She knows about skinchangers… I think she even tells jon he should learn to control his gift… Mel alluded to the contents of the Pink Letter in their last conversation, not to Jon's assassination. At this point we don't know how much Mel understands about skinchangers. 13 hours ago, divica said: Whatever the weeper is doing at the bidge of skulls it wont affet the near future of CB. We have no idea if marsh can control the NW in CB. And there are much more wildlings there than NW brothers. In adition, most of the people against jon are men not used to fight. And with a giant and several people starting to fight and scream I don t think the wildlings inside the shieldhall won t listen… We don't know what will happen at CB, true, but we cannot rule out the possibility that Marsh had a plan and that he is able to go through with that plan. Jon's assassination is very much evocative of Caesar's assassination, and the aftermath there had the various parties reach a compromise, so I'm actually expecting that Marsh sort of behaves like Brutus, enjoying his short stint in the sun, until Mel and Stannis and Jon's friends help to bring him down. Because in the end we can actually expect that Marsh has a plan to control the wildlings - either via the hostages and/or by simply keeping all the terms of their agreement with Jon, making it clear that Jon was executed as the oathbreaker and turncloak that he was when he decided to march down to fight the Boltons. This was an internal matter of the Watch, and the wildlings simply have no right to interfere with that. There might be some grumbling there then, of course, but this could certainly work until the actual news about Stannis arrive. If somebody kills or brings down Marsh and his allies it is likely going to be Melisandre. Because she has means nobody else at the Wall has. 13 hours ago, divica said: But the important part is that we won t have a conflict that will last weeks. Like the red wedding it will be a fast affair. There is no reason to keep jon's body frozen for an indefinite amount of time… Again, you don't know that. There might be some such reasons. 13 hours ago, divica said: After the confict with bowen is handled what is more important that ressurecting jon if he is dead? Pretty much everything else since 'resurrecting Jon' should be nobody's priority since this isn't a story where 'resurrecting people' is something people do on a regular basis. Nobody at the Wall even knows that resurrection is a thing in the Riverlands. And Melisandre has, in my opinion, no clue that Jon can or will be resurrected, nor has she ever given any indication that she believes in that kind of thing. There is a vision which could turn out to mean that Jon the man will come back - the vision of him as a man, a wolf, and a man she has in her chapter - but this was interpreted then as his status as a skinchanger. I expect Mel only to interpret this vision in a chronological sense - Jon the man, Jon-Ghost, Jon the man again - after his body has actually been resurrected, not before. You see in the nonsensical thing that an intentional resurrection of Jon Snow via any sort of spell would look and feel utter ridiculous, no matter how this would be played or build up. If Mel's first TWoW chapter would have her come to the conclusion she has to resurrect Jon that chapter would read like a caricature. 13 hours ago, divica said: ghost is locked in a chamber, there is no reason to believe he will run away. And if his body is revived then he can get back to his body like all skinchangers do… You are once again providing evidence that his body can t stay dead a lot of time because he has to remember to get back... Ghost will be a wolf with a man's mind and intelligence. He certainly will figure out a way to get out of the room. Especially since people are likely going to visit him there to put him down. Marsh is not going to allow the direwolf to survive his master. 13 hours ago, divica said: Do you really think jon will be half animal? One thing is to have animal instincts, another is animal behaviour… Honestly, I think once again you are giving evidence why he wont stay a lot of time in ghost. Nobody would care to read about jon in that state and rickon is already covering that angle. Rickon isn't a main character. And again, there is a reason why skinchangers use their humanity in their second life. Why has George introduced that concept rather than, you know, have them live out their second life without losing their humanity? There is clearly a connection there, something that's going to become an important plot point when Jon is stuck in Ghost. Because, quite honestly, nobody cares what happens to Varamyr's humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: You didn't show the quote, but burning some corpses wouldn't be the same as a proper funeral. Jon was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, his corpse wouldn't just be treated as something to get rid of because people feared it might raise as a wight. In fact, pretty much nobody south of the Wall fears that stuff like that might happen. Yeah, and that might be the reason why they might dump his corpse in such an ice cell, too, to give him a proper funeral when there is time. I showed you the quote about jon thinking he will have to burn the corpses of the men he brought south of the Wall. And in ADwD he has been burning all the dead people. In adition they just received a letter about dead things in the water near hardhome… I have no idea why you think they don t fear that corpses might become wights when the first wight the NW encoutered was south of the Wall trying to kill the LC... If you think they want to give him a proper burial then they would want to do it as soon as possible so that there isn t a risk of him becoming a wight… And once again, people don t keep dead bodies to give them a proper burial when there is time in a couple of weeks… This isn t rational. Nobody behaves like that in a place where the dead can come back to life... 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Because Jon doesn't really understand what's happening when he dies. He does not understand why he is killed. And she certainly thinks the men killing him where men he could trust, men who would not kill him. Are you really saying jon would run away from danger and abandon his body and the NW? Because that isn t the jon we have been reading about… In that situation he would run to his body and intervene... 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Jon was the glue that kept them together. They made a promise to him. Perhaps some might try to avenge him, others might just think 'bugger this kneeler who helped to bring down Mance'. Even if they avenged him, they should break down into small groups again - and those at other castles already are such small groups already - with no clear leader or purpose. These people are, after all, fiercely independent. They are not yes-men. You do realise this will happen within a few minutes of them pledging to go to winterfell. Either the wildlings present at CB will atack the NW members that atacked jon and they win/lose or they won t do anything. The important thing is that once again this conflict like the red wedding will be decided fast. They won t be in combat for weeks so that hey can t waste 10 min to burn jon and all the dead this confilct caused... OR are you saying that now the NW freezes corpses? Because jon won t be the only dead... 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Mel alluded to the contents of the Pink Letter in their last conversation, not to Jon's assassination. At this point we don't know how much Mel understands about skinchangers. Quote "All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope." In adition to mel seeing that jon is in danger I don t think there is much that "I am your only hope" can mean besides saving his life... And we are talking about mel that instantly knew she should kill orell's eagle? 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: We don't know what will happen at CB, true, but we cannot rule out the possibility that Marsh had a plan and that he is able to go through with that plan. Jon's assassination is very much evocative of Caesar's assassination, and the aftermath there had the various parties reach a compromise, so I'm actually expecting that Marsh sort of behaves like Brutus, enjoying his short stint in the sun, until Mel and Stannis and Jon's friends help to bring him down. Because in the end we can actually expect that Marsh has a plan to control the wildlings - either via the hostages and/or by simply keeping all the terms of their agreement with Jon, making it clear that Jon was executed as the oathbreaker and turncloak that he was when he decided to march down to fight the Boltons. This was an internal matter of the Watch, and the wildlings simply have no right to interfere with that. There might be some grumbling there then, of course, but this could certainly work until the actual news about Stannis arrive. If somebody kills or brings down Marsh and his allies it is likely going to be Melisandre. Because she has means nobody else at the Wall has. Again, if marsh can keep the NW and wildlings under control then there isn t an iminent conflict. Therefore there is no reason to not burn jon as soon as possible (because people don t storage dead bodies and they do it even less in a place where they can come back to life). And we have no idea if marsh has a plan. He had no idea what jon would do so he didn t know if he would have to kill him. And if you really think about what you are saying then you should remeber the pink letter. If marsh is in control then he will want to capture mel, val, mance's baby and stannis familly in order to deliver them to ramsay so that he spares the NW. If you still expect that everybody will accept this without conflict I don t know what to tell you… In adition, given that he will attack stannis familly if news from stannis arrive then he will have even more reason to kill them. What you are saying gives even more motivation to mel to keep jon alive so that he can protect her and stannis familly... 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Again, you don't know that. There might be some such reasons. Ok, then give me a logical scenario when the people at the Wall will be so ocupied that they can t spare 10 min to burn dead bodies (jon's isn t the only one) before they become wights. Because the conflict to control CB certainly doesn t look like it will last before some party is in control... 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Pretty much everything else since 'resurrecting Jon' should be nobody's priority since this isn't a story where 'resurrecting people' is something people do on a regular basis. Nobody at the Wall even knows that resurrection is a thing in the Riverlands. And Melisandre has, in my opinion, no clue that Jon can or will be resurrected, nor has she ever given any indication that she believes in that kind of thing. There is a vision which could turn out to mean that Jon the man will come back - the vision of him as a man, a wolf, and a man she has in her chapter - but this was interpreted then as his status as a skinchanger. I expect Mel only to interpret this vision in a chronological sense - Jon the man, Jon-Ghost, Jon the man again - after his body has actually been resurrected, not before. You see in the nonsensical thing that an intentional resurrection of Jon Snow via any sort of spell would look and feel utter ridiculous, no matter how this would be played or build up. If Mel's first TWoW chapter would have her come to the conclusion she has to resurrect Jon that chapter would read like a caricature. You aren t understanding what I said. What I said is that after the conflict if people believe they can revive jon why shouldn t they do it as fast as possible? Otherwise burn his body as fast as possible so that he doesn t become a wight. People conserving dead bodies near the Wall is the scenario that makes zero sense given everything they know... The vision wasn t interpreted by mel as anything. We don t know her opinion. And as I said above mel says she is jon's only hope. Given that she has been seeing that jon is in danger for a long time I don t know how to interpret it besides mel thinking she will save jon's life somehow. In adition, as you said above. If bowen marsh is in control of CB mel will be desperate because bowen will want to capture her and stannis familly to deliver to ramsay. So she should be in the right state of mind to try anything to save themselves… Finally, we have seen with victarion that red priest can heal. Instead of ressurecting mel might just think that she should heal jon's body and then make him sckinchange from ghost back into his body. If done fast enough it even makes medical sense… 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Ghost will be a wolf with a man's mind and intelligence. He certainly will figure out a way to get out of the room. Especially since people are likely going to visit him there to put him down. Marsh is not going to allow the direwolf to survive his master. Again, if jon/ghost is released he will run to his body and try to understand what is going on. We have no reason to believe he will flee and abandon the NW and his body without even making sure he is dead… IT would be ridiculous. 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Rickon isn't a main character. And again, there is a reason why skinchangers use their humanity in their second life. Why has George introduced that concept rather than, you know, have them live out their second life without losing their humanity? There is clearly a connection there, something that's going to become an important plot point when Jon is stuck in Ghost. Because, quite honestly, nobody cares what happens to Varamyr's humanity. They lose their humanity because they will be forever stuck inside an animal. The only new thing we learned is that they lose their gift to skinchange after their body dies. What that chapter showed was what happened to all the skinchangers that have been killed so far, not only jon. And it helped us understand that jon being inside ghost isn t something cheap that grrm will use to trick the laws of ressurection we have seen in asoiaf so far. It gives a legitimate reason for jon to come back diferent but not less than what he was. What doesn t make any sense is for jon to become an animal inside a human body when he has so many people that understand the risks of warging besides him and know he can t stay inside ghost for a long period of time. On the other hand rickon is a traumatized kid that has no one to teach him about the danger of warging… Who is there to stop him from spending too much time inside his loved wolf? And I have no idea what is the relation between being a main character and becoming an animal inside a human body... 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Springwatch Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 Just looked over the pink letter chapter again. Jon still thinks his wolf and Borroq's boar would fight to the death given the opportunity. It's probable Jon and Borroq will resonate to that hostility, so help and support between them is unlikely. Mel speaks to Jon before he reads the pink letter. She says, "All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope." @divicaIt doesn't exactly say she expects to be saving his life. And previously she has been fatalistic about Jon putting himself in danger; she says people never listen to her warnings until it's too late. More likely she's thinking of the Battle for the Dawn, her personal obsession. 5 hours ago, divica said: Again, there are several dead bodies in ADwD and jon orders them all burned (with the exception of the bodies he want to become wights). Jon is not calling the shots now. That's kind of the point. Quote And any violent conflict will be solved within hours and create several dozen of dead bodies that people will want to burn as soon as possible as they have beeen doing. If there is a political conflict certainly people will dispose of the dead bodies… Not sure about the bolded. Quote No one keeps dead bodies for a long time because it is inconvenient to dispose of them… It just doesn t happen…. It's not just inconvenient, it's a survival matter. The Watch will have made stores of wood, but they did not allow for all these extra people, and they did not expect to be fighting a war and burning every single body. Cutting more wood is problematic even in normal snow and ice, let alone supernatural winter. This is a stewards' rebellion; they are aware of these things. There will be pyres, but not instantaneous and unlimited. Regardless, Jon cannot be burned immediately - the aftermath of the assassination and coup must be dealt with. So he's put in a secure ice cell - safe, and less likely to stir up his supporters than a burning. The ice cell is interesting in a lot of ways. The Wall is an intensely magical construction. It's suggested that it's haunted, and its castles are haunted. The magic of the Wall might be an alternative refuge for Jon's spirit, so that he doesn't have to spend all his time in Ghost and go wolf crazy. He can be his own Ghost. The quote I gave earlier, together with Winterfell crypt quotes - suggest that Jon's 'ghost' period is highly significant to the story: Quote He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. [Bran's dream, BRAN III AGOT] Quote When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread. [Hiding in the crypt, BRAN VII ACOK] Seems like Jon's going back to his roots. Lord Jonnel was a bit of a surprise. The son of Lynara Stark, Lord Jonnel married Sansa Stark, his niece. Whatever, Jon is foreshadowed among the unquiet dead. He's got a job to do. Quote How is at least jon learning to warg and learning about betrayals from people he trusts nothing changing? Does anyone think jon won t have trust issues? That he hasn t learned that he can t keep people that hate his decisions in power? Just because these events might not have the effects you are waiting for doesn t mean that they won t have consequences. Asoiaf isn t got! This will affect jon! The question is how… And neither you nor I can know that for sure... He doesn't need to rise from the dead to do those things, that's what I'm saying. These are 'normal' problems for normal, living people. The attack on Jon would have killed any 'normal' character. If Jon can just bounce back from the dead, all dramatic tension is lost. The 'death' only makes sense if treated seriously, it can't just be Jon showing off his plot armour and picking up another suite of skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 2 hours ago, divica said: I showed you the quote about jon thinking he will have to burn the corpses of the men he brought south of the Wall. And in ADwD he has been burning all the dead people. In adition they just received a letter about dead things in the water near hardhome… I have no idea why you think they don t fear that corpses might become wights when the first wight the NW encoutered was south of the Wall trying to kill the LC... But those were people who died beyond the Wall, people who actually do rise from the dead occasionally. It makes sense to burn them - but Jon didn't die beyond the Wall, did he? Nor is there any indication whoever is going to be in charge of his corpse will care about deposing it quickly or give a damn about him becoming a wight. 2 hours ago, divica said: If you think they want to give him a proper burial then they would want to do it as soon as possible so that there isn t a risk of him becoming a wight… And once again, people don t keep dead bodies to give them a proper burial when there is time in a couple of weeks… This isn t rational. Nobody behaves like that in a place where the dead can come back to life... Again, nobody among the Watch shows a particular fear of wights. And you have to keep in mind that they will have not just one corpse but dozens or scores of corpses to deal with if open fighting breaks out after the assassination. They already have two - Jon's and Ser Patrek's. 2 hours ago, divica said: Are you really saying jon would run away from danger and abandon his body and the NW? Because that isn t the jon we have been reading about… In that situation he would run to his body and intervene... I don't think you can predict what a man-wolf who has just been killed is going to do. Jon has never lived through fake death, he never prepared for his true death, he has no idea what it means to be a skinchanger. He is not going to behave rationally. He didn't even behave rationally when people told him what he was - repeatedly. 2 hours ago, divica said: You do realise this will happen within a few minutes of them pledging to go to winterfell. Either the wildlings present at CB will atack the NW members that atacked jon and they win/lose or they won t do anything. The important thing is that once again this conflict like the red wedding will be decided fast. They won t be in combat for weeks so that hey can t waste 10 min to burn jon and all the dead this confilct caused... Even if there was immediate violent conflict, this doesn't mean anything is going to be resolved. The wildlings are surrounded by their families. Do you think they will want the Watch to kill their women and children? 2 hours ago, divica said: OR are you saying that now the NW freezes corpses? Because jon won t be the only dead... If they are afraid that the corpses will rise they will dump them into the ice cells. 2 hours ago, divica said: In adition to mel seeing that jon is in danger I don t think there is much that "I am your only hope" can mean besides saving his life... But she didn't save his life, did she? He got stabbed to death. 2 hours ago, divica said: And we are talking about mel that instantly knew she should kill orell's eagle? Do we know she knew that instantly? 2 hours ago, divica said: Again, if marsh can keep the NW and wildlings under control then there isn t an iminent conflict. Therefore there is no reason to not burn jon as soon as possible (because people don t storage dead bodies and they do it even less in a place where they can come back to life). Marsh would have every reason to hide Jon's body because publicly burning it would rub the assassination in everybody's face. But do pray tell me how look it took to bury Lord Tywin? How long was Corlys Velaryon's corpse publicly displayed in the Red Keep? 2 hours ago, divica said: And we have no idea if marsh has a plan. He had no idea what jon would do so he didn t know if he would have to kill him. And if you really think about what you are saying then you should remeber the pink letter. Sure, he knew what he would do. It is implied that the Pink Letter had been opened before it was handed to Jon. If Clydas first gave it to Marsh and Marsh knew the contents of the letter then it makes sense that they were able to predict Jon's future actions. Meaning they would have had a plan to execute as soon as Jon was publicly announcing his decision to attack the realms of men (i.e. the Boltons). The idea that Marsh didn't have a plan makes no sense in context of the last chapter. Ghost even senses that something is amiss. 2 hours ago, divica said: If marsh is in control then he will want to capture mel, val, mance's baby and stannis familly in order to deliver them to ramsay so that he spares the NW. If you still expect that everybody will accept this without conflict I don t know what to tell you… In adition, given that he will attack stannis familly if news from stannis arrive then he will have even more reason to kill them. What you are saying gives even more motivation to mel to keep jon alive so that he can protect her and stannis familly... Oh, yes, the fact that part of Marsh's motivation might be fulfill Ramsay's demands to save the NW could result in Marsh trying to take Stannis' family into custody. Which is part of the reason why it might turn out that Melisandre is going to be the one to bring him down. Because nobody is going to attack or capture her. However, if we ignore Mel for a moment there, it is quite clear Selyse doesn't really have the manpower to resist Marsh. She has a couple of dozen attendants, and Mel has even less. However, one actually imagines that Marsh is actually trying to play things so that him killing Jon for his various treasons and meddling with the Boltons is enough proof of the loyalty of the NW to the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms. The Watch still owes Stannis for the victory over Mance Rayder, so I expect him to insist that Stannis' family and men leave the Wall rather than that he is going to arrest them to hand them over to Ramsay. Marsh is not exactly a great guy, but he is no great thug, either. He wouldn't hand over women and children to a creature like Ramsay unless he actually had no other choice. If news about Stannis' victory don't arrive prior to Massey, Nestoris, and Jeyne Poole then chances are pretty high that Selyse, Shireen, and Axell are going to accompany Massey and Nestoris to Braavos. The Iron Bank of Braavos has made a contract with Stannis Baratheon and if he were truly dead, then said contract would now be between Queen Shireen and the Iron Bank. And I very much doubt that Marsh - or anybody at the Wall - would have the stones to prevent a representative of the Iron Bank of Braavos to take customers and ... guests of the bank with him to Braavos. It would also make sense for Selyse and Axell to accompany Massey since only morons would actually trust this guy with the money. And if Stannis were truly dead then Selyse and Shireen (and Axell) should take charge of the sellswords that are going to fight in their name rather than anyone else. But to get anywhere here we would have to know whether Selyse and Axell are actually going to believe that Stannis is dead. I'm sure Mel is not going to believe that, and while Selyse usually believes everything Mel tells her, we have no clue how she is going to react to the Pink Letter. 2 hours ago, divica said: Ok, then give me a logical scenario when the people at the Wall will be so ocupied that they can t spare 10 min to burn dead bodies (jon's isn t the only one) before they become wights. Because the conflict to control CB certainly doesn t look like it will last before some party is in control... See above. Also, you know, the normal time passing between death and the eventual funeral. Nobody fears anybody is going to become a wight. 2 hours ago, divica said: The vision wasn t interpreted by mel as anything. We don t know her opinion. And as I said above mel says she is jon's only hope. Given that she has been seeing that jon is in danger for a long time I don t know how to interpret it besides mel thinking she will save jon's life somehow. She refers to the Pink Letter, not to his death. She wanted him to call for her after he received the letter, possibly to tell him that Stannis is not, in fact, dead. Instead he didn't talk to her, staged his show in the hall, and got killed. She might actually be pretty much done with him after that. 2 hours ago, divica said: Finally, we have seen with victarion that red priest can heal. Instead of ressurecting mel might just think that she should heal jon's body and then make him sckinchange from ghost back into his body. If done fast enough it even makes medical sense… Then why is Mel nowhere to be seen in the last chapter? If George wanted to send the message that this is going to be a fake death - like Davos in ACoK, Arya in ASoS, Brienne in AFfC, etc. - then there would be something in the text to indicate that. The true deaths we got from POVs, i.e. Will, Cressen, Merrett, Pate, Varamyr, Kevan, and Catelyn, are all pretty much written in the same manner as Jon's death. You really have to read the entire thing against the implied meaning to believe that Jon *might* not be dead. And why would want to do that? Does anybody believe all those Lannister guardsmen in the Red Keep are going to burst in to save Kevan from the daggers? And couldn't Qyburn magically save the Lord Regent from certain death? That is possible, right? So why doesn't anybody believe that's going to happen? Because there is no reason to think so. There is also no good reason, I think, to kill Jon Snow - but that's what the author did. And he set up a convoluted scenario how him dying might not be a proper death, so there is more than enough room for him to come back. Insisting this entire setup was just some 'fake death' scenario which is going to end with 'a magical healing' would make the thing literally entirely meaningless. It would be a waste of pages and the worst cliffhanger in the entire series. 2 hours ago, divica said: Again, if jon/ghost is released he will run to his body and try to understand what is going on. We have no reason to believe he will flee and abandon the NW and his body without even making sure he is dead… IT would be ridiculous. Well, I guess if you know how a man-wolf behaves then there is no reason to continue the discussion ;-). I'd just point out that it seems very unlikely to me that Jon is going to understand what has happened to him, who he can trust, and how to process all this. He will be a wolf, completely or nearly completely bereft of his human mind. Also, as I said, Marsh's people are likely going to try to kill Ghost, too. They cannot allow the direwolf to live, can they? It might be they attack and injure Jon-Ghost and the wolf can barely escape with his life. 2 hours ago, divica said: They lose their humanity because they will be forever stuck inside an animal. The only new thing we learned is that they lose their gift to skinchange after their body dies. It was a decision on the author's part to make it so that the human spirit is slowly but surely absorbed by the mind of the animal. And that in and of itself is a plot device to allow Jon to survive his own death. Because back in ASoS all we learned about Orell's eagle is that a part of Orell survived in the bird, not that basically his entire spirit is stuck there. 2 hours ago, divica said: What that chapter showed was what happened to all the skinchangers that have been killed so far, not only jon. And it helped us understand that jon being inside ghost isn t something cheap that grrm will use to trick the laws of ressurection we have seen in asoiaf so far. It gives a legitimate reason for jon to come back diferent but not less than what he was. Well, I don't expect him to remain a wolfish man forever. Of course he will eventually piece himself back together to be more human than wolf again. Perhaps the idea that Ghost is going to be killed to allow him to return into his body is even going to help with that, but we can most definitely say that Jon Snow won't survive his own death. The man that is going to come back will be changed on a fundamental level. His mind will be changed by his experience in Ghost, and his body will be changed by the magic resurrecting his body. His body will be imbued with fire the way the bodies of Beric and Catelyn were. I have a rather long-winded theory as to why Beric could be resurrected by Thoros in the first place (the idea being that he has a drop of Targaryen blood, hinted at by the fact that Baelor Breakspear was married to a Dondarrion) while others were not - the question we have to ask about Beric and Thoros is not why Beric was brought back but why others were not. I think this fire kiss thing goes back to a Valyrian resurrection spell created by and for dragonlords. The red priests made it part of their funeral rites, but it was actually once used to cheat death, not to send people on the other side. In any case, with Jon clearly having more Targaryen blood than either Beric or Catelyn (who actually may have a Targaryen-Lothston among her ancestors) I expect his body to be changed much more than Beric's body was - who, strangely enough, could use his own blood to ignite his sword after his resurrection (which is, quite literally, the closest we got to Lightbringer or the mythological Azor Ahai character in the series so far). If Jon happened to be one of the three dragon heads - or even the promised prince (although I don't buy that) - then I expect his body be as hot and changed as Melisandre's body is right now (although I don't believe she ever died and was resurrected; I think her chapter implies she was imbued with fire magic while she was alive). Jon's burning blood after his resurrection might have the power to ignite not only normal steel - like Beric could - but also Valyrian steel, which might come in rather handy in the coming battles. Also, since it is pretty much a given that Dany and Jon will eventually hook up and have the greatest romance ever it seems to be not only fitting but actually rather obvious that a magically changed and resurrected Jon imbued with living fire is going to be the guy with the magical 'hot semen' that's going to overcome the barrenness of Dany's womb - assuming she is barren at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 Those Starks are damned hard to finish off because they get a second life as a direwolf. Jon will die and come back as an ice wight with his soul intact in Ghost. He never comes back as a human. Remember Coldhands? That's Jon's future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ckram Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 On 4/26/2019 at 11:22 PM, Lord Varys said: Nobody had to die to bring back Beric Dondarrion And yet, if Melisandre is as 'fire consumed' as theorys regarding her age make us think she is, ressurecting Jon would kill her, just as Thoros thought ressurecting Beric a couple more times would be mean his own death. On 4/26/2019 at 11:22 PM, Lord Varys said: I think Coldhands is essentially Jon 0.0 My thoughts exactly. Though I suspect Melisandre will accidentally prevent Jon from being wightfied during the last kiss and his body will be decayed but mostly preserved by the cold. 19 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Orell's eagle is that a part of Orell survived in the bird, not that basically his entire spirit is stuck there. It's more complicated than that. Orell's spirit pass to live on Varamyr too. Varamyr even says skinchanging is a two way street. This is weird because say Borroq tries to warg Ghost after Jon is dead. So Jon would live on Borroq. Quote: ASOS, Jon X "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him. Once a beast’s been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jô Maltese Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 15 hours ago, Great Oshiro said: Those Starks are damned hard to finish off because they get a second life as a direwolf. Jon will die and come back as an ice wight with his soul intact in Ghost. He never comes back as a human. Remember Coldhands? That's Jon's future. Not necessarily, if Jon's body (corpse) is stored in CB food cellars it will be preserved. Then he may well be reborn amongst smoke and salt, i.e. the food stored next to him (smoked ham, salted fish). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Ckram said: And yet, if Melisandre is as 'fire consumed' as theorys regarding her age make us think she is, ressurecting Jon would kill her, just as Thoros thought ressurecting Beric a couple more times would be mean his own death. Where do you get this? Thoros never thought breathing fire/life into Beric would kill him. It killed Beric to resurrect Catelyn, but that was only because he passed the magic/spell sustaining him on to Catelyn, effectively committing intentional suicide. It is certainly possible that Melisandre could do something like that as well, but why should she? She is a red priestess of tremendous power the resurrection kiss thing is so minor a ritual that even the drunkard Thoros mastered it. Also, we have no reason to believe at this point that Mel was actually ever resurrected. She is full of fire magic, yes, and no longer human, but I doubt she ever died. Not only does she seem to remember her past very well but there are also memories of great pain in relation to her present powers. That's doesn't indicate her going through a similar process as Beric or Cat, since that's not really connected to pain. They died, sure, but coming back to life, etc. is no painful process for them. 1 hour ago, Ckram said: My thoughts exactly. Though I suspect Melisandre will accidentally prevent Jon from being wightfied during the last kiss and his body will be decayed but mostly preserved by the cold. Beric and Cat's bodies are not wights. They are resurrected mortals, which is something differently entirely. In fact, if Mel is pretty old then this would also not sit well with the resurrection spell thing considering Beric and Catelyn both seem to live on normally despite the fact that had been dead (a couple of times). Sure, Cat is pretty hideous now, but neither she nor Beric were ever zombies. They are no longer mortals in the same sense as normal people but they are mortals still, and can be slain or, presumably, die of old age, etc. 1 hour ago, Ckram said: It's more complicated than that. Orell's spirit pass to live on Varamyr too. Varamyr even says skinchanging is a two way street. This is weird because say Borroq tries to warg Ghost after Jon is dead. So Jon would live on Borroq. Quote: ASOS, Jon X "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him. Once a beast’s been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes." Oh, yeah, sure skinchanging is the merging of souls. You become part animal and the animal becomes part human, and if you take over an animal which harbors the remnants of a dead skinchanger then you merge with that guy, too. The point I was making is just that the entire second life stuff was not exactly there yet back in ASoS with Orell. There we only heard that part of the man remains in the animal after the death, but only Varamyr's Prologue told us that this effectively extends to possession. I mean, it is quite clear now that, say, Bran could live on as Hodor if his crippled body were ever destroyed. We had no idea that this was possible before ADwD. 33 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said: Not necessarily, if Jon's body (corpse) is stored in CB food cellars it will be preserved. Then he may well be reborn amongst smoke and salt, i.e. the food stored next to him (smoked ham, salted fish). Doesn't the prophecy say that the reborn Azor Ahai and/or the promised prince will be born amidst smoke and salt? Melisandre and the other red priests see the savior as a rebirth of the mythical Azor Ahai but there is no talk that I can recall that the reborn Azor Ahai/promised prince actually has to be reborn in some fashion after he already existed. And considering that both Dany and Aegon were born on Dragonstone - which most definitely qualifies as 'amidst smoke and salt', a fact reinforced again by FaB's description of Dragonstone in the material on the Conqueror - I think that part of the prophecy has already come true. If Jon Snow were the promised prince then he would have to have been born amidst smoke and salt, not reborn in such a fashion. Not to mention that resurrection is not exactly all that analogous to (re-)birth, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ckram Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Where do you get this? Thoros: "A seventh death might mean the end of both of us." (ASOS, Arya VII) Beric: "Fire consumes." [...] "It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing." (ASOS, Arya VIII) Melisandre: "Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price." (ADWD, Melisandre) 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Beric and Cat's bodies are not wights. Sorry, I meant to say Melisandre would perform the last kiss and fail. But the Jon's corpse would grow imune to wightfication because of something that she does. Either that or the body is not eligible to wightification. See, Thistle became a wight, but apparently Varamyr's corpse didn't. Maybe when skinchanger leave the body behind to start the second life, the souless corpse is not wightfiable. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: the entire second life stuff was not exactly there yet back in ASoS with Orell You're right. But, in my opinion, it still breaches the case you were trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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