Jon's resurrection

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Ckram said:

Thoros: "A seventh death might mean the end of both of us." (ASOS, Arya VII)

Beric: "Fire consumes." [...] "It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing." (ASOS, Arya VIII)

Melisandre: "Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price." (ADWD, Melisandre)

Oh, I forgot that Thoros said that. Still, not sure whether Thoros knows what he is talking about here. After all, he doesn't understand what's happening and apparently believes R'hllor is working those miracles, not some spell he, Thoros, is casting.

But the crucial thing is the question whether we have any reason to believe that Melisandre of Asshai has ever brought a person back from the dead? I don't think there is the slightest hint in that direction, much less confirmation that she has ever done that. Mel is an expert in killing people, but not in bringing them back from the dead. In that sense, I'd expect Mel having no issue whatsoever breathing new life into Jon. In fact, I'm sure she could do that a dozen times in a row considering how powerful she is in comparison to Thoros.

1 hour ago, Ckram said:

Sorry, I meant to say Melisandre would perform the last kiss and fail. But the Jon's corpse would grow imune to wightfication because of something that she does. Either that or the body is not eligible to wightification. See, Thistle became a wight, but apparently Varamyr's corpse didn't.

Varamyr doesn't see his own corpse as a wight, but that's not necessarily evidence that it didn't rise, no? Not sure what the wight thing has to do with anything relating to Jon. He died this side of the Wall, there is little reason to assume that he'll be raised by the Others unless the Wall falls before he rises or his corpse is moved beyond the Wall for some reason.

1 hour ago, Ckram said:

Maybe when skinchanger leave the body behind to start the second life, the souless corpse is not wightfiable.

In light of the fact that Coldhands exist I doubt that. I think he is a skinchanger who once was a wight and then was able to break the hold the Others had over his corpse, making him basically an undead skinchanger regaining control over his own body.

[Ckram]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

not sure whether Thoros knows what he is talking about here

I'll give you that. I'm not sure either.

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Melisandre of Asshai has ever brought a person back from the dead?

I don't if it qualifies, but her drinking poisoned wine without dying should have wasted some of her 'mana'. If this is proven right, I guess she uses her ruby's powers as a talisman, in order to not have to resort her inner fires (which should be somewhat fragile, given her age and practice).

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varamyr doesn't see his own corpse as a wight, but that's not necessarily evidence that it didn't rise, no?

Sure. It's just a faint hint.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure what the wight thing has to do with anything relating to Jon.

Ok, only TWOW to answer this "the side of the wall to ice magic to work" thing.

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think he is a skinchanger who once was a wight and then was able to break the hold the Others had over his corpse

In this scenario he had a second life in an animal, or just were under the power of the Others for a time and then broke free?

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Ckram said:

I don't if it qualifies, but her drinking poisoned wine without dying should have wasted some of her 'mana'. If this is proven right, I guess she uses her ruby's powers as a talisman, in order to not have to resort her inner fires (which should be somewhat fragile, given her age and practice).

Oh, but doesn't fire cleanse? I don't think Melisandre can be poisoned. She no longer eats, indicating she is literally fueled by fire. No idea how such a digestive tract could be affected by poison. Thus one assume she didn't like a special spell to counter the Strangler. However, considering that she clearly foresaw Cressen attempt to poison her chances are very high that she may actually have used a mundane antidote to neutralize the Strangler. Granted, no idea whether such an antidote even exist, but Melisandre really likes to combine charlatanry and trickery with real magic.

Also, I admit that the ruby is really played up in the Cressen scene, but ADwD strongly implies that this thing just contains her glamor. After all, Mance's ruby also just contains his glamor, so we shouldn't make too much of the ruby. Mel's chapter makes it clear that the fire and heat is truly a part of her, it is in her body, not some magical talisman.

20 minutes ago, Ckram said:

In this scenario he had a second life in an animal, or just were under the power of the Others for a time and then broke free?

I expect him to have been stuck in an animal. I think they will use the Coldhands example, possibly via Bran pointing it out to them, as a template to get Jon back into his body. And one might wonder whether Varamyr will actually be the first character we know to go through this process. He is still around in One Eye but simply disappeared from the story despite having hooked up with Summer in ADwD. I expect that to lead somewhere but it never did. It is a curious loose end.

[Ckram]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

she clearly foresaw Cressen attempt to poison

Yeah, a simple antidote would explain it all. So, it doesn't qualify properly.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

they will use the Coldhands example, possibly via Bran

I expect Jon to become Bran's Coldhands. That appears to be the ideal solution to make Jon to travel to the Lands of Always Winter without being affected by the cold. Bran working as an analyst in a Base of Operation. Jon, not a POV character anymore, being the man in the field.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Yeah, a simple antidote would explain it all. So, it doesn't qualify properly.

I expect Jon to become Bran's Coldhands. That appears to be the ideal solution to make Jon to travel to the Lands of Always Winter without being affected by the cold. Bran working as an analyst in a Base of Operation. Jon, not a POV character anymore, being the man in the field.

Would, in my opinion, work equally well if he were imbued with fire.

[Jô Maltese]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

(...)

Doesn't the prophecy say that the reborn Azor Ahai and/or the promised prince will be born amidst smoke and salt? Melisandre and the other red priests see the savior as a rebirth of the mythical Azor Ahai but there is no talk that I can recall that the reborn Azor Ahai/promised prince actually has to be reborn in some fashion after he already existed.

And considering that both Dany and Aegon were born on Dragonstone - which most definitely qualifies as 'amidst smoke and salt', a fact reinforced again by FaB's description of Dragonstone in the material on the Conqueror - I think that part of the prophecy has already come true. If Jon Snow were the promised prince then he would have to have been born amidst smoke and salt, not reborn in such a fashion. Not to mention that resurrection is not exactly all that analogous to (re-)birth, is it?

IIRC the prophecy says "born again" and refers to AA, not the PtwP (ok, they're the same, not sure it matters). Also Mel is the one who is convinced that smoke and salt refer to Dragonstone, hence her supporting Stannis. And Mel sucks at interpreting prophecies... And Jon, who is probably AA/PtwP, was NOT born in Dragonstone in any case.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

IIRC the prophecy says "born again" and refers to AA, not the PtwP (ok, they're the same, not sure it matters). Also Mel is the one who is convinced that smoke and salt refer to Dragonstone, hence her supporting Stannis. And Mel sucks at interpreting prophecies... And Jon, who is probably AA/PtwP, was NOT born in Dragonstone in any case.

The way things look right now Jon Snow is likely not the promised prince. The comet marked the hatching of the dragon eggs by Dany, not anything he did. He never hatched any dragons from stone, and his birth - unlike Dany's - wasn't accompanied by signs and portents (the storm that destroyed the Targaryen fleet, which very likely could have blown both saltwater and smoke from the Dragonmount into Rhaella's chamber).

Everything pointing to Jon as the prophesied guy is based on the assumption that prophecies that have already been partially fulfilled will be fulfilled again somehow, now with Jon as the guy they are referencing.

[Jô Maltese]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The way things look right now Jon Snow is likely not the promised prince (...)

Come on LV, I hope you don't say that because of what happened last night...

Promise me Ned, promise me : of course Jon is the PtwP. And we are not even sure the bleeding star is a comet ; it could represent Arthur Dayne's death (his sigil) or Melissandre's (=Shiera SeaStar?) future sacrifice to revive Jon. And from the D&E novellas, you know as well as me that hatching a dragon is likely to mean unveiling a hidden Targaryen... Out of the stone tomb of Lyanna, or out of Lady Stoneheart (if she's the one who ressucitates him)?

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

Come on LV, I hope you don't say that because of what happened last night...

Promise me Ned, promise me : of course Jon is the PtwP. And we are not even sure the bleeding star is a comet ; it could represent Arthur Dayne's death (his sigil) or Melissandre's (=Shiera SeaStar?) future sacrifice to revive Jon. And from the D&E novellas, you know as well as me that hatching a dragon is likely to mean unveiling a hidden Targaryen... Out of the stone tomb of Lyanna, or out of Lady Stoneheart (if she's the one who ressucitates him)?

How are we to differentiate between waking dragons from stone the Dany way and whatever Jon might, perhaps, do in this regard later? Wouldn't that mean that both fulfilled the prophecy? Do you think there is going to be some, well, objective prophecy-interpreter/judge who is going to tell us that Dany wasn't promised princess rather than Jon? Do you even think there are even characters in-universe who would care about that?

I don't think so.

As for your suggestions: Promise me, Ned, has nothing to do with prophecy. If there is an actual red comet in the sky I'd go with the literal meaning. Why don't you? Not to mention that a shooting star isn't exactly a bleeding star nor a comet. It is a shooting star. Melisandre is very likely not Shiera Seastar since everything we learned from ADwD implies that she was once this girl Melony. Her mother may have been Shiera and her father Brynden Rivers, but she herself is definitely not Shiera. She would have recognized Bloodraven in her vision if she were. Also, no reason to believe Mel would ever sacrifice herself to resurrect Jon. She just became a POV.

I have to ask you, did a literal dragon hatch in Whitewalls? I don't think so. If nothing magical happens you go to metaphorical explanations to make sense of prophecies and prophetic visions and dreams (if you care about making sense of them - you could also just ignore them). Do you think anyone would ever point to Egg as the fulfillment of Daemon II Blackfyre's prophetic dreams if Daemon or Egg or Bloodraven had actually hatched a literal dragon at Whitewalls? I don't think so.

In a series were literal dragons are woken from literal stones it makes little sense to insist the true meaning of prophetic stuff referring to that has to be metaphorical.

But, actually, I'm open to Jon doing similar (albeit less literal/impressing) stuff as Dany since I really think those three heads of the dragons are intricately linked and might have to fulfill their destiny together and do similar things to accomplish it. It might even be that a core mistake of the present interpreters of prophecy in-universe is that there is only one savior. I think that has been hinted at subtly when Tyrion concludes another Targaryen in Aegon would confuse the followers of R'hllor in Volantis. My guess is that the correct way to interpret this thing is focus on the collective angle, the fact that they have to work together, rather than insist that only one person is going to do the job.

Still, I'm curious - how would you determine that Jon was the one and only savior guy if, for the most part, did not fulfill prophecy in a literal sense? I mean, we have still no clue what the promised prince is actually supposed to do or accomplish, right?

[Lucia Targaryen]

GRRM has confirmed that Melisandre will burn Shireen so here's my hypothesis - Selyse and Melisandre will find the bastard's letter and believe that it is true (I for one do not) and Melisandre will burn Shireen in response and inadvertently resurrect Jon. It would fulfill Melisandre's talk of using king's blood to wake a dragon (Jon) from stone (Shireen's greyscale).

[Jô Maltese]

45 minutes ago, EvanSol919 said:

GRRM has confirmed that Melisandre will burn Shireen so here's my hypothesis - Selyse and Melisandre will find the bastard's letter and believe that it is true (I for one do not) and Melisandre will burn Shireen in response and inadvertently resurrect Jon. It would fulfill Melisandre's talk of using king's blood to wake a dragon (Jon) from stone (Shireen's greyscale).

Arrr. I like that.

[Moiraine Sedai]

The WWs will accidentally resurrect him. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

GRRM has confirmed that Melisandre will burn Shireen so here's my hypothesis - Selyse and Melisandre will find the bastard's letter and believe that it is true (I for one do not) and Melisandre will burn Shireen in response and inadvertently resurrect Jon. It would fulfill Melisandre's talk of using king's blood to wake a dragon (Jon) from stone (Shireen's greyscale).

George has just alluded to that Shireen will die roughly the same way she died in the books - not to mention that the show runners did that, too, so it is given that Stannis is involved there. Anything else would suck thematically.

[Gendarrion]

Second life worthy of a King, I don't really know what this means, is he going to have a personality that befits a king?.

[The Sleeper]

I wouldn't care to speculate on the specifics, but whichever the case I don't think he would return entirely or at all human. It would allow him to go toe to toe with the others and possibly access the heart of Winter. 

The Prince that was Promised is meant to be sacrificed. 

[OneFretfulTrout]

It might help to look at it from a theoretical perspective: According to Leemings theory of the monomyth, first is the hero‘s death, followed by his descent to the underworld, and finally, his rebirth and ascension. Applying that to Jon‘s arc, this could mean that he first has to spent some time as Ghost (the name fits at least) before being reborn. During this time he might already learn about his parents, like in a meeting with the other ghosts of his past in the underworld (crypts?). In fact, learning about his true identity might then trigger his rebirth... or something like that?

Anyway I think that Val will somehow be crucial for his story.