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Tyrion1991

Why does every character hate Daenerys?

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3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

So? This is medieval warfare. It's not about heroes and villains. They don't have to like Dany but it is beyond stupid to be acting so abrasive towards her. Torrhen Stark saw what Aegon did in the Field of Fire, and did the sensible thing of kneeling. If the Northern Lords think Dany and her army are malicious and terrifying, as people in this forum claim, they should do the same. Or at the very least not be trying to piss her off.

People keep presenting Dany as power hungry and entitled because she wants fealty in exchange for help, but the same standard isn't applied to the Northern Lords, who are expecting her substantial help without offering anything in return. That's not how negotiations work. She shouldn't have to act Queenly towards people who haven't accepted her as Queen, and it is their dumb luck that she's doing it anyway, despite their hostility towards her.

Doing what anyway? her job as "Protector of the realm"? It's in her job description if she wants to rule Westeros. People here are making it out to be Dany helping the poor North against a rebeled faction the rest of the realm or  world has nothing to do with.

 

I actualy think that this northern defiance is a good thing for Dany and her personal development. It's easy to get carried away and develop sort of a God complex with the things she has experienced, being worshiped by the freed slave in Essos and called mother, hatching dragons , not being burned in the process, getting a bigass army out of almost nothing. She is having sort of a bad awakening in the North, and I personnaly think it will help her not to tip over into madness.

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5 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

it will help her not to tip over into madness.

Or it will push her over the brink, but I hope you are right. I hope the good Dany we saw at the beginning wins out. I am starting to like her again, a little bit.

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2 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

 maybe taking Lyanna and marrying her (be it with annulment, divorce, or even as another wife) was also a political move, and maybe Aerys was even informed. He could have aproved of his son actions, at least in regards of the Starks...but he was also distrustful of Rhaegar, so who knows, maybe murdering the Starks was to f*ck Rhaegar too... or just a move a la Tywin, to erase from the way all heirs, because just like Sansa was the "key to the North" for Tywin, Lyanna was the key if Rickard and her older brothers died. 

How would a secret marriage be a political move?

Sansa, as you'll recall, was after Ned's death one of the main motivations for Robb's war against Joffrey. She was married off to Tyrion publicly. Tywin didn't kidnap her; she was held hostage because they already had her in their hands when they took the throne after Robert's death. Which directly caused two major wars. 

Whatever exactly went on before Robert's Rebellion, it's not comparable to the situation with Sansa. Even if the Starks were planning to form their own kingdom or whatever, running off with Lyanna would be stupid politics. For one among many reasons, it would needlessly piss off the family of Rgaegar's existing wife, which happens to dominate Dorne. 

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7 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

In season 2 he gets the ranger training him captured and then ends up having to kill him. Basically because he let Ygritte go rather than kill her. 

No I disagree. They would try to sell this as her making a sacrifice and a magnanimous decision. That is an expectation that I like it. Jon gets to be King whilst Dany ends up wandering back to Essos. How is her going “well Iam a failure and would make a terrible Queen” a good story? She would not have got that far if she was a bad queen. Never mind him getting a left field power fantasy.

Oh, you mean Qhorin Halfhand... Yes, he hesitated in killing an unarmed prisoner, and that speaks well of him, despite the consequences. He did not let her go, he hesitated and she ran away.

I don't think she would make a magnanimous sacrifice. None of us knows what will happen. They might die both, and then all this debate is pointless and those on the dany's side will join those on the jon's side in a common grief. 

The showrunners  already said that some people will like and some won't like the end. IMO that's normal, because we are a huge audience, with different opinions and backgrounds. But we are here, debating the nature of power and human conflicts, and this is good. 

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ah, so they should be nice to their local conqueror, is that it?

She demanded Jon bend the knee before she even knew the threat existed. She just heard his title and decided his kingdom had to submit to her. She already viewed the North as her enemy from Day 1. 

What did they do to piss her off? Look at her funny? They didn't throw parades for her in the streets? You Dany fans are so sensitive.

Listen, I'm not interested in your little fandom battles so gtfo with that attitude. I'm not arguing for or against the morality of any of the characters' actions. It's a pseudo-medieval world, and Dany pressing her claim is ok with me, as is the lords rejecting her claim. I'm merely commenting on how stupid it is to be antagonistic towards a person who they can't easily defeat, and from whom they are asking for help.

And don't pretend like they've acted neutrally with her all this time.

4 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

She has never asked for fealty in exchange for help. She has always demanded fealty. It just happened that she saw what the world was up against and realized it was in everyone's best interest for her to help.

Well, she's not burnt them to a crisp yet, so the implied deal is "I lend my army to help you, you let me be Queen". Demanding would be "bend the knee or die". Of course, the show is probably going to resolve this conflict by having Dany help them in next episode's battle, "proving" her worth, and then marrying Jon, so no one has to be the bad guy.

4 hours ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Doing what anyway? her job as "Protector of the realm"? It's in her job description if she wants to rule Westeros. People here are making it out to be Dany helping the poor North against a rebeled faction the rest of the realm or  world has nothing to do with.

I actualy think that this northern defiance is a good thing for Dany and her personal development. It's easy to get carried away and develop sort of a God complex with the things she has experienced, being worshiped by the freed slave in Essos and called mother, hatching dragons , not being burned in the process, getting a bigass army out of almost nothing. She is having sort of a bad awakening in the North, and I personnaly think it will help her not to tip over into madness.

Surely, it should be "it's in her job description if she rules Westeros"? If the Northern lords don't want her for the job, why should she still be beholden to the duties? Dany has a moral obligation to save Westeros but not any other kind of obligation.

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Northern Lords wouldn’t like her because they don’t like foreigners after what happened to Robb when he married Talisa. 

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Partly because Danny is kind of a brat. We could see it early on when she spoke to the spice king ''I'm becoming queen of Westeros and YOU are going to help me because I wanna! I wanna! I wanna!'' She's not very easy to reason with because she's 100% convinced everyone already owes her loyalty and aid. 

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1 hour ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Partly because Danny is kind of a brat. We could see it early on when she spoke to the spice king ''I'm becoming queen of Westeros and YOU are going to help me because I wanna! I wanna! I wanna!'' She's not very easy to reason with because she's 100% convinced everyone already owes her loyalty and aid. 

Judging a character in S8 based on their actions in S2 is a bit daft.
Thank god for character arcs, imagine if S2 Jamie arrived at Winterfell in S8...
 

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2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Listen, I'm not interested in your little fandom battles so gtfo with that attitude. I'm not arguing for or against the morality of any of the characters' actions. It's a pseudo-medieval world, and Dany pressing her claim is ok with me, as is the lords rejecting her claim. I'm merely commenting on how stupid it is to be antagonistic towards a person who they can't easily defeat, and from whom they are asking for help.

You're missing some key details. They didn't ask for her help; Jon made that decision and they told him not to go because a Targaryen cannot be trusted and they needed him there. Jon saw the wisdom of their concern once Dany threatened him and held him prisoner. She did tell him to "bend the knee or die" when she said Torrhen Stark knelt to save his life and the lives of the Northmen. That was a threat. Do you think Jon should have knelt right there? He was the only elected king in this story and Dany wanted to take that away from them. She was antagonisic first! And if you're watching this show without any moral worldview then I'd be concerned if you took Dany's side when she'll eventually turn Winterfell and King's Landing into Harrenhals simply because they want someone else as their leader. People who shrug and go "oh well, they deserved it" are siding with a tyrant who kills masses of people with nuclear weapons. But lucky for Dany she can do whatever because its "a medieval world" or something. 

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

And don't pretend like they've acted neutrally with her all this time.

None of it was that bad, omg, they are still calling her "your grace." They are tolerating her. If she wants more than that, she can take several seats. 

Re: Dany demanding stuff. I could totally see Dany telling the North they have to go south to fight Cersei for her. Thankfully Jon can just say "If you cant understand why I won't enlist my people in a foreigner's war, there's no use in explaining"

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You're missing some key details. They didn't ask for her help; Jon made that decision and they told him not to go because a Targaryen cannot be trusted and they needed him there. Jon saw the wisdom of their concern once Dany threatened him and held him prisoner. She did tell him to "bend the knee or die" when she said Torrhen Stark knelt to save his life and the lives of the Northmen. That was a threat. Do you think Jon should have knelt right there? He was the only elected king in this story and Dany wanted to take that away from them. She was antagonisic first! And if you're watching this show without any moral worldview then I'd be concerned if you took Dany's side when she'll eventually turn Winterfell and King's Landing into Harrenhals simply because they want someone else as their leader. People who shrug and go "oh well, they deserved it" are siding with a tyrant who kills masses of people with nuclear weapons. But lucky for Dany she can do whatever because its "a medieval world" or something. 

None of it was that bad, omg, they are still calling her "your grace." They are tolerating her. If she wants more than that, she can take several seats. 

Re: Dany demanding stuff. I could totally see Dany telling the North they have to go south to fight Cersei for her. Thankfully Jon can just say "If you cant understand why I won't enlist my people in a foreigner's war, there's no use in explaining"

Big words for an unlikely speculation. It looks like Winterfell will became a battlefield and if the same thing will happen in KL I wonder what will be left for Dany to be burned after the war against AoTD.

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5 minutes ago, loverofcats said:

Big words for an unlikely speculation. It looks like Winterfell will became a battlefield and if the same thing will happen in KL I wonder what will be left for Dany to be burned after the war against AoTD.

I'm pretty confident this is what's happening. I think they win the WW war (Dany may indeed help) and Dany will force them to prove their loyalty to her immediately after the victory. So she says kneel or die. I think Dorne/North have extremely close parallels and that the North will do the same things the Dornish did when Aegon came. They won't kneel. Instead they'll let Dany attack an empty castle as they melt away into the snows, and the Starks go south (probably to Riverrun). There is foreshadowing for her burning Winterfell and King's Landing, in both book and show.

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"Throw me to the wolves and I'll return leading the pack."
Daenerys is hardly a stranger of turning adversity into advantage. 

I very much doubt it will end the way you hope  it will @Rose of Red Lake, but I will raise a glass to you if it does.

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8 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Judging a character in S8 based on their actions in S2 is a bit daft.
Thank god for character arcs, imagine if S2 Jamie arrived at Winterfell in S8...
 

has it changed though? What's changed is that Danny got armies and grown up dragons to make her claims less silly, but her initial meeting with John and Davos didn't really present a more open minded Danny. She still quite smugly assumed the Stark's loyalty was rightfully hers and didn't really back down on that, if anything she won out on that front. 

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18 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You're missing some key details. They didn't ask for her help; Jon made that decision and they told him not to go because a Targaryen cannot be trusted and they needed him there. Jon saw the wisdom of their concern once Dany threatened him and held him prisoner. She did tell him to "bend the knee or die" when she said Torrhen Stark knelt to save his life and the lives of the Northmen. That was a threat. Do you think Jon should have knelt right there? He was the only elected king in this story and Dany wanted to take that away from them. She was antagonisic first! And if you're watching this show without any moral worldview then I'd be concerned if you took Dany's side when she'll eventually turn Winterfell and King's Landing into Harrenhals simply because they want someone else as their leader. People who shrug and go "oh well, they deserved it" are siding with a tyrant who kills masses of people with nuclear weapons. But lucky for Dany she can do whatever because its "a medieval world" or something.

You keep trying to turn this into a fandom battle when I've already told you I've no interest in that. I don't care about sides. I care about coherent storytelling and well written characters. The North is courting Dany's help, both explicitly (by Jon's invitation) and implicitly (by no one outright telling her otherwise). It is believable and understandable that an exiled Queen is trying to take back her family's land, given the setting, and it is believable and understandable that some of the lords rejecting her. But it's contrived that they're not even trying to hide their disdain, and it's stoopid that the supposed smartest person is negotiating with an empty hand.

18 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

None of it was that bad, omg, they are still calling her "your grace." They are tolerating her. If she wants more than that, she can take several seats. 

Re: Dany demanding stuff. I could totally see Dany telling the North they have to go south to fight Cersei for her. Thankfully Jon can just say "If you cant understand why I won't enlist my people in a foreigner's war, there's no use in explaining"

I shouldn't have to explain why their passive aggressive digs were inappropriate for treating a GUEST but that's not the problem. The problem is that they're not at all scared or worried about Dany, which is just unrealistic.

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On 4/27/2019 at 2:25 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

This has been going on since season 7 and it’s become impossible to avoid as the characters who are on Danys side have become marginalised. 

- Why do Sansa and Arya care about Northern independence? They should care about revenge on the Lannisters. They should care about the army of the Undead. How do they intend to accomplish either of these things without Dany? Why are they suddenly deeply interested in events going back a generation and not more interested in beating Cersei?

- Why are the Northern Lords acting as if they have a choice in this? Daenerys has two dragons. She could, easily, kill all of them. Unless Arya Faceless Mans it and they do not know that BTW, then they shouldn’t be acting as if there’s the possibility of defying her. The exact same issue happened in season 7 when the Reach and Westerland Lords joined Cersei because reasons. Not a single character or faction has been intimidated by those dragons and that breaks my suspension of disbelief.

- Sam is completely overlooking Jon chopping off Janos Slynts head after he refused to follow orders. How is this different than Tarly not bending the knee and choosing a violent option? It isn’t.

- All the other characters keep pointing out how violent and cruel Danny is whilst wilfully ignoring the fact they have been fighting a brutally savage civil war. Brienne saw Stark soldiers lynching innocent women in the Riverlands. Sansa had a man eaten alive by his dogs. It’s a major double standard. Nobody suggests that Sansa shouldn’t be Lady of Winterfell because she’s done nasty things to bad people. Arya has killed a few hundred people at this point. But Dany burns two guys who refused to surrender and suddenly there are gasps of shock and horror.

- Danny has sent her people and dragons north. She lost a dragon saving Jons life. Danny did not need to do that. She could easily have continued her campaign in the south. Instead, Sam is proposing that Jon should let her sacrifice all of that and then rob the throne off her. Making all the pain and suffering she went through meaningless. It would be a stunningly backhanded act of betrayal if Jon went through with that. 

- What Dany has asked for is token lip service. That is it. She hasn’t asked for taxes. Hasn’t abolished feudal powers. Nothing. The warden of the north is king in all but name. It is pedantic and pathetic in the extreme considering the circumstances to take issue with that.

- Why is it taken for granted that Brans vision and Sams letter will be taken seriously? There would always be a question mark over whether Jon and his heirs were truly what they claimed. This would create future wars. Dany on the other hand is indisputably a Targaryen. 

- Dany has been merciful. Tyrion convinced her not to destroy the cities of slavers bay and she forgave Jorah. Sam is leaping to conclusions.

- You are about to be attacked by an army of the Undead and you are complaining that somebody brought an army and two dragons? You are then conspiring to depose this person and ruin their life? If somebody saves the world that would normally be proof that they might actually be a good person.

I honestly can’t decide if this is all false tension that won’t go anywhere. A bit like that Stark vs Baratheon undertone in the books. But I do really think that none of the characters are being reasonable here. 

Unless like Jon, you're in love with her, what reason do you have to like her?

Her father was a brutal tyrant, who murdered Ned Stark's father and brother, and initiated a war that cost thousands of Northern lives, before he was killed.  Now, she demands that the lords of Westeros should submit or burn.  Why should they assume she's any better than her father?

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