Theory about Jamie Brienne and Ice

[hallam]

It suddenly occurred to me that Jamie and Brienne both have one half of the ancestral Stark Sword Ice and this might well have some connection to the Night King.

I am pretty sure something is going to happen to the Night King this week but not enough to kill him.

What if the god of light and the ice king are two aspects of the same? Ice kills one aspect of the Night King but the other aspect is unleashed.

Alternatively, Jamie kills the Night King only to be turned into the new one in the process.

But it does seem like there is something being hidden in plain sight here. We are looking for a flaming sword and there is an Ice sword. And it is the song of Ice and Fire.

[Hippocras]

7 hours ago, hallam said:

It suddenly occurred to me that Jamie and Brienne both have one half of the ancestral Stark Sword Ice and this might well have some connection to the Night King.

I am pretty sure something is going to happen to the Night King this week but not enough to kill him.

What if the god of light and the ice king are two aspects of the same? Ice kills one aspect of the Night King but the other aspect is unleashed.

Alternatively, Jamie kills the Night King only to be turned into the new one in the process.

But it does seem like there is something being hidden in plain sight here. We are looking for a flaming sword and there is an Ice sword. And it is the song of Ice and Fire.

The Ice we saw at the beginning was just one of a long series of Stark swords called Ice, and it is specified Valyrian steel, which means manufactured a very long time ago in Valyria. 

I tend to agree that the story of Ice become Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper … become … is headed somewhere, but the magic is not because of something intrinsic to Ice but because of what has happened to it and its connection to the events of the story. Ice was used to kill its owner Ned, then it shattered. I still think Widow's Wail will be used to kill its owner, Jaime, when the moment comes, but if not one of the shards of Ice will be used to kill Tyrion. One Lannister or the other. And then it too will shatter.

[Kajjo]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Ice was used to kill its owner Ned, then it shattered.

I didn't shatter. The sword was fine until Tywin got a blacksmith to reforge it into two smaller swords, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

[Bran Snow]

7 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I didn't shatter. The sword was fine until Tyrion got a blacksmith to reforge it into two smaller swords, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

*Tywin

[Kajjo]

Just now, Bran Snow said:

*Tywin

Thanks, I fixed it in #3.

[Hippocras]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

I didn't shatter. The sword was fine until Tyrion got a blacksmith to reforge it into two smaller swords, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

well yes, I agree that is what happened literally. But the shattering is more than just the splitting of the sword IMO. It was also the shattering of the Stark family. That is why it was so powerfully symbolic what Tywin did.

And just as Ned was the glue that held his family together, Jaime is the glue for the remaining Lannisters. When he is gone there is nothing left to bind Tyrion and Cersei.

 

I have no idea of course if my theory will come true. Given the time left, chances are not. But I hold out hope because of the beautiful symbolism of "Lightbringer" being a thing that represents the coming together of bitter enemies.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

It was also the shattering of the Stark family. That is why it was so powerfully symbolic what Tywin did.

I agree. But I wouldn't cal this shattering. Tywin symbolically destroyed the Stark heritage by reforging its ancestral sword.

2 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Jaime is the glue for the remaining Lannisters. When he is gone there is nothing left to bind Tyrion and Cersei.

Jaime and Cersei went separate ways, they are no longer an item. Jaime and Tyrion still are brothers and stick together.

4 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

symbolism of "Lightbringer" being a thing that represents the coming together of bitter enemies

Does it? I understood Lightbringer not as bringing together but as means to defeat the enemy.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

I agree. But I wouldn't cal this shattering. Tywin symbolically destroyed the Stark heritage by reforging its ancestral sword.

Jaime and Cersei went separate ways, they are no longer an item. Jaime and Tyrion still are brothers and stick together.

Does it? I understood Lightbringer not as bringing together but as means to defeat the enemy.

After Ned's execution the sword was split, Arya became Arry, Sansa became a prisoner, Bran and Rickon were split up and Rob and Cat died. I call that a shattering. Metaphorically of course, but "shattering" precisely matches the emotion of the situation. Stark heritage, however was not really destroyed was it? If it were they would not have come back together again.

Yes, Jaime and Cersei went separate ways. But now Jaime and Tyrion are together and close again. When Jaime is gone, and only when he is gone, that family is broken completely. That is the point. The shattering of the Lannisters is when Jaime dies.

As for Lightbringer, we still all really have no clue. We can only speculate. But if Lightbringer DOES turn out to be both a weapon, AND a symbol of the resolution of various hatreds I think that would perfectly fit what the story has been working towards and be satisfying.

[D2procon]

I wonder if Bran could go back in time to the Days Valyria to recover the recipe to forge Valyrian steel?

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, D2procon said:

I wonder if Bran could go back in time to the Days Valyria to recover the recipe to forge Valyrian steel?

Would be interesting, but most probably will not take place in this show.

[Mladen]

I have to say that fact that Sansa who was present when Tywin gave that sword to Joffrey and Brienne who knows where those two swords came from is INFURIATING having in mind that no one said anything. And in Season 6, the absurdity of Brienne wanting to return it to Jaime and yet being sworn to Sansa... Heavens.

[Steve Stark]

5 hours ago, Risto said:

I have to say that fact that Sansa who was present when Tywin gave that sword to Joffrey and Brienne who knows where those two swords came from is INFURIATING having in mind that no one said anything. And in Season 6, the absurdity of Brienne wanting to return it to Jaime and yet being sworn to Sansa... Heavens.

You know, I've thought about a lot of stuff...but this never crossed my mind. Now it will probably drive me nuts. Thanks.

[lostinwesteros]

I had thought about the fact that both parts of Ice (Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail) will be fighting side by side in the upcoming battle in 8.3, since Jaime had asked to fight with Brienne, and so Ice will, in effect, be used to protect Winterfell, but I had forgotten that Ned's Ice was only one of a long series of Stark ancestral swords named Ice.  

I wonder what significance it might have with the other swords named Ice down in the crypts with the Starks of old, as I'm still wondering how the coming of the NK might effect what's down in the crypts.  But, whatever transpires in the next episode, I agree with the OP that something very significant is being 'hidden in plain sight' about these swords.  

 

[Mladen]

4 hours ago, Steve Stark said:

You know, I've thought about a lot of stuff...but this never crossed my mind. Now it will probably drive me nuts. Thanks.

Welcome to my world  

[Hippocras]

9 hours ago, Risto said:

I have to say that fact that Sansa who was present when Tywin gave that sword to Joffrey and Brienne who knows where those two swords came from is INFURIATING having in mind that no one said anything. And in Season 6, the absurdity of Brienne wanting to return it to Jaime and yet being sworn to Sansa... Heavens.

Bran certainly knows about the swords too.

I think it will come up when it needs to, but for now it is not important. Jon has a Valyrian steel sword, Arya has a dagger, and Sansa’s weapons are political and diplomatic. Sansa is served by Brienne so it is perfectly fitting that Brienne has the sword. If it had been given back to Sansa before Brienne joined up with her she could not have used it. And Jaime may well have his sword confiscated as soon as the battle is over, he might even give it back willingly, or he might swear himself an ally to the Starks.

When it is the right time to talk about the swords they will.

[House Cambodia]

12 hours ago, lostinwesteros said:

I had thought about the fact that both parts of Ice (Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail) will be fighting side by side in the upcoming battle in 8.3, since Jaime had asked to fight with Brienne, and so Ice will, in effect, be used to protect Winterfell, but I had forgotten that Ned's Ice was only one of a long series of Stark ancestral swords named Ice.  

Ha ha, I hadn't made that connection either - mind blown!

But about that 'series' of Stark swords - are you sure it's not the same sword, or the same Valaryan steel being reforged? I suspect it (they) could turn out to be the remnants of Lightbringer and the only weapon to defeat the NK. I can see one-handed Jamie dying in Brienne's arms and Ser Brianne going all berserker with a sword in each hand.

[lostinwesteros]

19 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Ha ha, I hadn't made that connection either - mind blown!

But about that 'series' of Stark swords - are you sure it's not the same sword, or the same Valaryan steel being reforged? I suspect it (they) could turn out to be the remnants of Lightbringer and the only weapon to defeat the NK. I can see one-handed Jamie dying in Brienne's arms and Ser Brianne going all berserker with a sword in each hand.

Ha - I like your vision!  As to Ice, I can't site a source, but it seems I read somewhere that there had been more than one sword named Ice wielded by the Starks (their use of family swords would have covered 8,000 years - I'm not sure when the First Men arrived in Westeros).  @Hippocras above had the same info about there being more than just the one sword.

But this gives rise to the question of what was done with the other Stark "Ice" swords.  I don't know if they would all have been Valyrian steel, but for some reason I think so, and my guess is that the others would have been placed down in the crypt beside their 'owner'.  Brings to mind some interesting possibilities about 8.3 airing tonight ... wonder if they will play a part in what happens down in the crypts.

[Ser Quork]

19 hours ago, Risto said:

I have to say that fact that Sansa who was present when Tywin gave that sword to Joffrey and Brienne who knows where those two swords came from is INFURIATING having in mind that no one said anything. And in Season 6, the absurdity of Brienne wanting to return it to Jaime and yet being sworn to Sansa... Heavens.

It is infuriating. I was squawking this at the TV when Grey Worm passed the sword back to Jaime.  Still not over it.

[lakin1013]

I do tend to believe that the rejoining of Brienne's OathKeeper and Jaime's Widow's Wail, fighting on the righteous side, together, is extremely an romantic thought.  If both Jaime and Brienne die together, I hope someone retrieves the 2 swords.  

According to the wiki -- "House Stark's ancestral sword Ice was forged in ancient Valyria and has been passed down through the generations."  Brann 

It is curious that so many of the great swords for the fight coming up belong to houses other than the wielders.  Long Claw was House Mormont, now House Stark.  House Tarley's Heartsbane is now for House Mormont.  House Lannister's Widows Wail was from House Stark.  House Tarth has Oathkeeper which originally from House Stark.  Did I forget any?  And is there any significance in this assembly of the Valeryan swords, other than the fact that they can, or may be able to kill the NK?